The Argument for the Restoration of Tuluk

[Heade]

Originally, this post was in reply to another thread, but after writing it, I felt like it deserved it's own thread:

I think a big part of the reason various roles are lackluster is due to the lack of an external enemy. This game is completely different than it was back when Tuluk was active. When Allanak and Tuluk were engaged in hot/cold wars in the past, that provided the primary narrative of the game world. The two strongest powers in the known were locked in a perpetual struggle of ideologies. It was a story that drew parallels to the US/USSR cold war era, which provided an amazing setting for other stories of love, loss, betrayal, and murder to take place against that backdrop.

It gave people from either area of the world a unifying sense of patriotism against an external enemy. It made sayings like, "Shade", or "His Shadow" more striking and vibrant because it represented a political ideology that had an existing counterpoint in the world. It was Capitalism vs. Communism. You could be saying the wrong thing to the wrong person. Spies, insurgents, and enemy soldiers were a real concern.

And it is against this backdrop that all of your smaller, local plots took place. The betrayals within a clan were so much more impactful and meaningful when there was also an external threat. The Byn were more than just glorified guards. They were neutral soldiers of fortune that fought for whoever filled their purse with sid. Luir's was more than just an outpost in the middle of nowhere. It was a strategic middle point between two fearsome tigers, providing whoever had it with a staging point for invasion. Noble houses weren't ONLY squabbling amongst themselves. They had duties to their patron within that greater struggle. The GMH's existed in a middle ground, providing goods to both sides of the ongoing war, delicately balancing their own survival with their need to maintain neutrality for the sake of their northern/southern holdings.

Without the backdrop of that external enemy, without the political and ideological intrigue, all plots focus on petty internal struggles. The lack of any unifying ideology or external enemy causes people to get bored and continuously drives those plots to be more and more petty, so that we get lots of threads about petty reasons for murder.

Tuluk wasn't just another city state. It represented the ideological counterpoint to Allanak that created the entire premise under which we played this game. The impact of not having that external enemy has created a massive ripple effect that touches nearly every interaction we've had in the game since it has started to fade from the collective memory of the playerbase. Armageddon used to be a massive ocean of depth. Now we play in a puddle.

[Brokkr]

Did you know that "Shade" comes from "Shade and water" which is not really a Nakki saying at all?

Even His Shadow and His Light weren't always around.  Just mentioning because this kind of stuff is relevant in that different folks have different framing of things.

[Lotion]

I think reopening Tuluk is a bad idea because then there would be more PC Templars and I think there should be none.

[th3kaiser]

Thanks Heade. I think you wrote out something I've been feeling lurking in the back of my head but didn't have the words for. Most of the conflict does feel petty these days.

[Heade]

Did you know that "Shade" comes from "Shade and water" which is not really a Nakki saying at all?

Even His Shadow and His Light weren't always around.  Just mentioning because this kind of stuff is relevant in that different folks have different framing of things.

Yes, I know "Shade" is a more politically neutral term than "His Light/His Shadow". And yeah, those terms were created through RP, but that RP was a result of the polarized and counterbalanced nature of the gameworld, of which we now only experience one side. Without the counterbalance, the world feels incomplete and shallow. It's like, before, we were all pieces in a grand war between city-states. Then, when Tuluk closed, we only pretended we were. And now, having a new generation of players who never experienced the game with the inclusion of Tuluk, it has come full circle so that we completely drop the pretense, and people think the game would be no different even if Tuluk were completely wiped off the map. It is tragic that Tuluk has been gone so long that the once-primary narrative of the game has faded so much from the collective memory of the playerbase that they can't easily articulate just how devastating the lack of this large, powerful external enemy has been on the gameplay. People argue incessantly about the minutiae of code and RP ettiquette when, if you look deep enough, many of the ails of modern armageddon can be traced back to the destruction of what was once the core theme of the gameworld. The players lost more than just a place to play. They lost a feeling of belonging in WHEREVER they chose to play. They lost driving motivations for their characters. They lost the depth of their entire gameworld in which they play.

That said, I don't want this observation to be received as if I'm negging on staffers. I'm not. I've said many times that I think we have some of the best staffers that are more responsive to the wants, needs, and desires of the playerbase than we've had in the history of Arm. My opinion on that has not changed. There have been numerous awesome additions to the game over the last couple of years. This isn't meant to detract from any of that. Only to point out that these awesome things are being added to something that has been broken for a long time. It's like putting shiny, $5000.00 rims on a beat up rust bucket. Yeah, the rims are awesome. The rust-bucket is still a rust-bucket. Let's fix the body of this thing before we worry about bells and whistles.

I think reopening Tuluk is a bad idea because then there would be more PC Templars and I think there should be none.

PC Templars aside, the lack of a political counterbalance to the all-powerful sorcerer king is a glaring omission from the gameworld. This could be solved without PC Templars being a thing, so I'd rather not focus on that element of things. If that was the sole reason for keeping Tuluk closed, that reason could be tackled without destroying an entire city-state.

Thanks Heade. I think you wrote out something I've been feeling lurking in the back of my head but didn't have the words for. Most of the conflict does feel petty these days.

You're welcome! And thanks, I felt that way too after I re-read what I wrote. Like I said, I initially wrote that as a response to someone in another thread, and only after putting it into words did I feel like it needed it's own thread. It's how I've been feeling about the game since Tuluk closed, but it took a long time to coalesce into something I could express succinctly.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I agree. I just missed seeing Tuluk in its hayday, and after its closure it's essentially become a 9X9 (I'm guessing the dimensions) mountain that is not climbable or passable in the North. Morins is just the last stop before the end of the Known. Like a gas station before the North Pole. Tuluk doesn't exist for me.

[Shabago]

Legitimate questions, for Heade or anyone:

How many players/vets do you think we lost when Tuluk closed?
How many players/vets do you think we lost from Allanak, without having it's big 'enemy'?

How many players/vets do you think would return if Tuluk would return in some variation?

[Is Friday]

Legitimate questions, for Heade or anyone:

How many players/vets do you think we lost when Tuluk closed?
How many players/vets do you think we lost from Allanak, without having it's big 'enemy'?

How many players/vets do you think would return if Tuluk would return in some variation?

I know a lot of players who take much longer breaks because of the limited choices of play.

I know a lot of players who don't play at all because of limited choices of play.

Opening up Tuluk in a limited capacity (2-3 clans?) with a small plot arc (driven by staff) and seeing where it goes would go a long way. You'd have to have something similar going on in Allanak to counter-act the "let's go see what's going on over there", though.

I would say "player driven only" stories are as much to blame for lower player count, though.

[Pew Pew]

Legitimate questions, for Heade or anyone:

How many players/vets do you think we lost when Tuluk closed?
How many players/vets do you think we lost from Allanak, without having it's big 'enemy'?

How many players/vets do you think would return if Tuluk would return in some variation?

1. 15% ish

2. 5-8%. I would argue this issue is the most detrimental to the game and is what causes the decision to PK, rather than let live and the story develop.

3. I think an optimistic estimate of vets returning to TRY armageddon would be around 50% of the number that have departed. Their chances to stay depend their experience IC and with staff.

[AdamBlue]

Everything feels more petty and superficial and without meaningful and coherent conflict to have a massive enemy that you are completely unable to interact with for code and game reasons.
'Tuluk exists but no one is allowed to interact with it, influence it, ect'
If Tuluk doesn't exist, what stops Allanak from just pushing northwards? If Tuluk doesn't exist, why aren't magickers more prevalent northwards, taking advantage of this massive lapse to form their own community as far away from Allanak as humanly possible? If Tuluk doesn't exist, what's to stop the Kryl? If Tuluk has no impact whatsoever and it is impossible to do anything to them or ask anything from them with no players to drive plots from there because players of Tuluk aren't allowed, then how can character-driven plots be possible in the North?
You have, what... Morins, which has no power, no real status, it's just a small gathering location. And you have Luirs, which, I will admit, has had some decent story as of late, but on any character not actively involved in that plot is is HELL. ABSOLUTE HELL. It is the most boring place in the entire game and it drives people absolutely insane. It -used- to be the middle-ground, the neutral space where mortal enemies could sit at bars and gaze upon eachother with doleful eyes, plotting ambushes and stabbing backs, only barely held in check by the pure power of the capital-fueled merchants selling to both while trying to politick carefully with selling of arms, armor, clothes, jewelry, equipment, ect without stepping on either's toes.
Now, it's just some merchant hangout spot where a bunch of players try and decide something but never really come to a complete conclusion and then nothing changes forever because where's the urgency to do anything we're all player-driven but the staff doesn't seem to care about the North because why would they when Tuluk doesn't really exist and the most we see are combat-driven plots with Kryl and Gith and other spooky beasties that occasionally run a player-wipe on the military characters and anyone unlucky enough to walk outside of the gates for whatever reason.

I may be grouchy, and I am because it's very early when I write this, but Tuluk, even with how 'care-barey' some may claim it was on the surface, was a very driving force for impact within the story, and while the player numbers have gone up with the global condition, overall quality has flickered somewhat with lack of depth and variety, with people getting bored. For people that have longer-lived characters, specifically, it's a bit torturous.

Right now, your options to play are Luirs, Red Storm, Allanak, and Morins.
Luirs- Pros: Middleground, very resource-rich, easy to accrue capital if you know what you're doing.
Cons: Very boring thematically (though some efforts have been made to make it slightly cooler), mediocre player count, low variety of character types (merchants, guards, hunters. that's about it)
Allanak- Pros: Huge variety in coded support. Criminal elements out of the 'rinth, all sorts of tasty flavor, weekly events out the wazoo with Arena games and small events here and there. Massive city means tons of character variety.
Cons: Divide between Nobility and Commoner playerbase means there's lots of events where people can be easily excluded or shunned entirely, high crime, mediocre profitability, 'corruption' presence so overwhelming it is unfortunately more edgy than interesting in many cases.
Morins- Pros: It's near wood.
Cons: It's near lots of deadly animals, too.
Red Storm: Pros: For the raiders or the people wanting to live in a 'small town' full of mystery, Red Storm is for you. If you want to be a secluded outcast with a mystery secret, or someone trying to get away from it all, a town where everyone wears hoods means often you won't find eyes on you. Proximity to the Silt Sea means there's lots of exploration to be done if you know how to do it, and even the least savvy of characters can sift spice for profit.
Cons: You are nobody, if you're in Red Storm. You will not be influencing the world in any way unless you are a raider of some kind. If you draw any attention to yourself, you'll at best be mugged, and at worst be tortured to death, your fingers bitten off one by one by a mangle-mawed cannibal dwarf who giggles as he talks, or disappeared into a mysterious red puddle that wasn't there before.

[triste]

+1 to the Tuluk love as someone who had the chance to play there
+1 to it being a limited open of 2-3 clans.

One point here that stood out in particular to me here is the valid critique of the Allanaki "Divide between Nobility and Commoner playerbase means there's lots of events where people can be easily excluded or shunned entirely," one way in which Tuluk was different in this regard were citizenship inks, which automatically let any newb character plausibly be trustworthy enough to involve in politics. Features like this just made Tuluk feel like a more open and nicer alternative -- which then allowed Allanak to more properly dive into the themes of corruption and betrayal. IDK if I am misremembering, but my memories of Allanak in the age of an open Tuluk were bloody epic. It was wonderful to be able to alternate characters between these regions, in Allanak I always had a short but exciting life which introduced me properly to the theme (harshness), where as in Tuluk I was able to more safely hunt gurth and pick flowers and learn the mechanics of the game.

Even though I knew even back then that Tuluk existed mostly as a foil to Allanak, that did not mean Tuluk lacked depth or a purpose. In some fiction the antagonist is fleshed out as equally as the protagonist and in this case I thought Tuluk was done well enough to make the conflict interesting.

Lastly, Luir's was indeed even more fun when you were much more likely to see a Northerner and a Southerner sitting at the bar. Now that you cannot play a native born Tuluki under the age of 60-70 given the timeline, people are just playing northerners less. If anything I think we are ripe for a reboot because many of the interesting Northern concepts are 'dying off' and now the available northern concepts are the exciting melange of Gol Krathu Bumpkin, Grey Forest Clodhopper, Thornlands Wildling. While I love and have played all of these concepts, all northern concepts are now by definition restricted to the rural. I miss the vast variety we had before: Ex-Winrothol Slave, Jilted Bard Turned Assassin, Bejeweled Elven Crime Lord, etc.

[Dresan]

Allanak's enemy and conflict problems will not be solved by bringing back a battered and beaten Tuluk. Even if the staff were to march a unity gith/mantis army to siege allanak, the overall problem would not be solved due to the obvious power allanak holds. Due to its current position in the world, Allanak's superior power needs to be waning in a very apparent way while all forces around it need to seem to be on the rise, but this is not an easy thing to accomplish without some effort.   

When Tuluk closed we probably lost 5-10 players logging in on average . And another 5 since then by the mere fact that the game did not have a suitable secondary city location to provide alternative play for those who are burnt out from Allanak. People forget that while Tuluk had its own culture, politics and alternative location there were major problem in terms of inner city conflict, lack of true crime and a host of other issues that can not be fully resolved with a lot of time, effort and possibly some ret-con.

At the moment Luirs is in a good position to fill the gap of a lack of a second city location in the game in the very same way Tuluk did with its lack of true crime opportunities . Staff need to continue to push the separation of Luirs and allanak in some shape or form and continue to build that place up to provide city based character a rich place to play as an alternative to allanak with its own distinct politics and concerns that don't just include allanak.   

[mansa]

If I had my way..

I'd combine the Lirathan and Jihaen into a new templar order - the black moon order.  But I would name the black moon something spooky and call it after that.
I'd open Tuluk with 5 noble houses that players could play in.  (Reduce potential choices of noble families from 9 to 5)
I'd introduce an elven noble house in Tuluk.

I'd have a spot for Bards, and a larger commoner's market, with a smaller tribal market at the entrance to the city.
I'd not have a 'black market underground' like Allanak has the 'rinth, but I would have some sort of area for thieves/murderers/magickers to play in.  Maybe the ruins of old old old tuluk?  More mutants there.

I'd make the story say that Muk Utep has abandoned the City and planeshifted to another realm, and a new big bad has taken over, but the commoners don't know that.  They are more happy that they can think clearly.

I'd probably have to hire another 2 staff members to handle the extra load of requests that opening 7+ clans would introduce.

[Is Friday]

I'd probably have to hire another 2 staff members to handle the extra load of requests that opening 7+ clans would introduce.

I would love to run either the bardic circles, Lyksae, military, etc. There's a lot of opportunity for fresh play with new/modified clans.

[Heade]

Legitimate questions, for Heade or anyone:

How many players/vets do you think we lost when Tuluk closed?

It's difficult to say, exactly. I know of a lot of them. I'm sure there are more that I don't.

How many players/vets do you think we lost from Allanak, without having it's big 'enemy'?

This is even more difficult to determine. This problem is one that, for many people, was difficult to articulate, and so the indirect nature of it may have resulted in people who have left and not really known that the lack of Tuluk was the reason they were dissatisfied with their gaming experience. Many players have likely come and gone from Arm, and never experienced an Arm with Tuluk in it. As such, it's very difficult to gauge how many of those might have stayed.

How many players/vets do you think would return if Tuluk would return in some variation?

I think it would be significant, but it wouldn't happen overnight. Some might hear about it and come back immediately. Others might hear about it over time and return. I'm sure others have moved on from MUDing altogether and we'll never get them back. But I think having Tuluk back would be healthy for the game. It would likely help us retain more of our existing and new players for longer by giving them more options for play. It would likely reduce the length of people's "breaks" from the game by giving them an alternate location in the world to play so that they aren't just coming back in and playing with the same characters after a PC death. I know that last issue has been the cause of many of my breaks from the game, and when I take a break from the game, there is a high likelihood of it becoming an "extended" break that might last a year or more simply due to life, and my free time being largely focused on other things. Without playing arm every day, I end up finding other things to commit my time to, and it's not until those commitments start to wane for whatever reason that I find myself coming back here to see how things are going.

All of these issues together, over the years of closure that we've had in Tuluk has likely resulted in far lower average daily logins than we likely could have had. Problems like this tend to compound over time.

I'd probably have to hire another 2 staff members to handle the extra load of requests that opening 7+ clans would introduce.

If staff were interested in pursuing a reopening of Tuluk, I'd be interested in coming on board with staff to help write documentation and room descriptions to facilitate its reopening, and I'd be willing to help staff it once reopened.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I think for Tuluk to attract old players it would need an idealogical shift. From what I hear the premise was interesting, but supremely difficult to implement in a mud. In a fun way at least.

I think that Tuluk returning would be great and probably boost numbers in the short run no matter what it looks like. In the long run, for a majority of those people to stay, however, Tuluk would need to be more streamlined if it's to keep the same "thought police" vibe. But literally anything can be done with them at this point lore-wise. Who knows what's going on behind the walls?

I like the elven noble house idea and ask, what if that was done with all true races (dwarf, elf, human). Like Tuluk is trying to fix the race issue by practicing the racist idea of power through segregation. This has half breeds and races like half-giants left in the lurch somewhat. Products such as muls would be a co-product of the dwarven house and a slave house, etc. Just a thought. I just want to see a different approach than simply human-centric storytelling after so long.

Please keep Jihaean Templars. I selfishly hope to one day play one.

[Heade]

I think for Tuluk to attract old players it would need an idealogical shift. From what I hear the premise was interesting, but supremely difficult to implement in a mud. In a fun way at least.

What you've heard is very likely skewed towards the opinions of people who preferred the Allanaki playstyle because we lost many of the players who preferred the Tuluki playstyle. If the conversations you formulated your opinion off of occurred prior to Tuluk closing, you may have a very different impression of what people thought of Tuluk. Imagine if they shipped all democrats out of the US to other countries, and the only things you heard about democrats came from republicans talking about how things were before the democrats left. That is sort of how things like this tend to unfold over time.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I think for Tuluk to attract old players it would need an idealogical shift. From what I hear the premise was interesting, but supremely difficult to implement in a mud. In a fun way at least.

What you've heard is very likely skewed towards the opinions of people who preferred the Allanaki playstyle because we lost many of the players who preferred the Tuluki playstyle. If the conversations you formulated your opinion off of occurred prior to Tuluk closing, you may have a very different impression of what people thought of Tuluk. Imagine if they shipped all democrats out of the US to other countries, and the only things you heard about democrats came from republicans talking about how things were before the democrats left. That is sort of how things like this tend to unfold over time.

You can still have the Tuluki playstyle without having tried and tested plot-killers. We can reimplement from an angle that is both easier to portray and more fun. In a direct response to your analogy, the criticisms the republicans may come up with, though definitely skewed, can also be true. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. We have the benefit of hindsight in this case.

Why not improve on something rather than return to something that for one reason or another objectively failed?

[SpyGuy]

I think for Tuluk to attract old players it would need an idealogical shift. From what I hear the premise was interesting, but supremely difficult to implement in a mud. In a fun way at least.

I think Lirathans shouldn't come back, at least not as a PC class. I played with a very long lived one as a Jihaen and she was a fantastic character. The problem is a Lirathan who was good at her job was also a plot killer. It meant that before things even started to get interesting they could be nipped in the bud and ICly Lirathans should be doing just that. I believe this led to a lot of anger from people who thought their character concepts were unfairly torn to shreds by a character type that was too well-protected to effectively counter against.

Please keep Jihaean Templars. I selfishly hope to one day play one.

They were pretty rad. I think southern templars are cooler codewise but really enjoyed playing a Jihaen, the philosophy/history were really interesting.

[Heade]

You can still have the Tuluki playstyle without having tried and tested plot-killers.

I agree, but I don't think the Tuluki culture needs to change at all to address this. I think SpyGuy had the right idea when he said this:

I think Lirathans shouldn't come back, at least not as a PC class. I played with a very long lived one as a Jihaen and she was a fantastic character. The problem is a Lirathan who was good at her job was also a plot killer.

That said, if it was necessary to slightly modify Tuluki culture to fill a gap in civil duties that Lirathans previously filled, we could likely do that without any huge edits. Maybe make some sort of position that works for the NPC Lirathans that would represent them, having the social clout and power of a Lirathan without the plot-killing power.

I don't think the plot-killing power that we're referring to alone is the issue. Another class in the game has a similar plot-killing power. The difference is, Lirathans had both that plot-killing power and the political clout to directly squash the plots with half-giant seal team 6.

PS: SpyGuy, you didn't happen to play a Lirathan who was interviewing a merchant named Keltasio, who, during the conversation outwardly appeared cooperative, but then sent a think: "No way I'm giving up my friends. Fuck her." Right before you had him seal team 6'd, did you?

That was one of my favorite deaths. It was many years ago.

[Dresan]

It really sounds like most people's wishes would be granted if Tuluki nobles took over Luirs. Adding any form of mind-bending templar PCs back in the game, no matter how diluted would hurt and potentially ruin yet another location like it originally did Tuluk.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I'm also of the opinion that the reintroduction of Tuluk could attract more players.  And so, the argument that "the playerbase is spread too thin" wouldn't hold.

[SpyGuy]

It really sounds like most people's wishes would be granted if Tuluki nobles took over Luirs. Adding any form of mind-bending templar PCs back in the game, no matter how diluted would hurt and potentially ruin yet another location like it originally did Tuluk.

This is off topic but my personal feelings are that nobles don't much to the action/adventure part of the game and are only useful to furthering conflict insofar as they can cultivate a good group of minions. I don't really see why GMH family and templars can't fill those roles though why GMH would start serious conflict with Allanak is beyond me.

Luir's would also be a poor substitute for Tuluki roleplay. I'd honestly rather see Tuluki rebels setting up a large camp somewhere in the grasslands or scrub to continue on the traditions of 'old' Tuluk. If it did bring player interest and met its objectives then maybe liberating Tuluk from whatever the hell is controlling it now might be the end game of that plot line. If the powers that be in Tuluk became an NPC threat to the known you could even see those rebels recruiting help from other sources to liberate the city while Allanak may choose to offer assistance or work to subvert a reopened Tuluk.

[RavingTregils]

In Tuluk, everyone was approachable for RP. You would see the lowliest hunter sitting at a table in the Sanctuary talking to a Templar.

In Allanak it's - oops wrong accent - don't like you, oops gemmer - hate you, oops Templar - bow down and get away, etc. The interactions between the socially unequal feel predefined like two NPC's meeting.

You didn't have any of that in Tuluk. Besides, I miss the tea parties.

[Cendell]

I'm one of the people that certainly enjoyed Tuluk more than Allanak. Anecdotally...I only know one person who left Arm because of it's closure and didn't come back, but I know a few people who were definitely dissatisfied on its closure, and as mentioned, take longer breaks between characters because they can't do the North-South shuffle.

My favourite past of the game has always been the GMH, as much as some people dislike them. The lack of a northern play area, or any other play area, means they are a bit diminished. With the Tuluk/Allanak dynamic it gave GMH family and employees an extra layer of playability. Northern and southern materials were gathered in their respective places, caravans were organised to and fro to exchange ideas, materials and have little sit downs, and a (friendly?) rivalry could exist between two branches.

I played an inked Salarri in Tuluk, and it offered an extra level on top of gameplay. He was, somewhat, patriotic...which led to him having a closer relationship with the Templarate than his southern kin probably felt was appropriate, and designs produced were just a bit more northern themed. It also meant sitting around in Allanak with northern inks on, with the full knowledge that someone could decide you needed a bone sword through the chest for your northiness.

I don't believe Luirs is the answer. Giving it to one of the powers? Definitely not. But thematically and physically, Luirs is a small, crowded, dingy, crappy Outpost in the middle of nowhere, and I doubt that is likely to change without some monumental in game effort to essentially build a new wall and expand it significantly (Which I doubt there is staff, or probably player appetite for)