Addressing racist and bigoted elements in documentation

[Yam]

OP

This is accurate and not "political correctness run amok". Most of us have seen the various fantasy racial stereotypes you mentioned played uncomfortably close to real life racial stereotypes. It rarely happens out of malicious or overtly racist intent, but it happens as you described. I really have no idea what addressing this would even look like, but I don't think the GDB has the capacity to actually discuss this topic productively.

I hope staff have internal discussions though. This is a real thing and it does turn people away from the game. Also the fix is definitely not Arm 2.0 with the cat people and coneheads, so don't even go there. I don't think Armageddon would have to lose the lore and Dark Sun stuff in question to address it. But it might.

[Nao]

Elves don't even see stealing as a bad thing. It's more of a display of superiority, a feat to be proud of, if they can pull it off. They also have a very, very wide definition of stealing (edit: something that human PCs rarely seem to understand IG). I remember an elf assassin who "stole futures". The future of his victims, and all their descendants.

On the original topic, I'll just repeat what I said on discord:

Fictional societies (especially scifi) has been used for a long time to point out real, non-fictional social problems. I do see a lot of parallels with arm, especially elves, and real life oppression. But I also see that as more of an opportunity to better understand how the mechanisms at work than a problem with the game that needs to be corrected. Then again I see a lot of people playing out their IG hatred closer to caricatures and comic book villains so I'm not sure how well that's working for everyone.

Mainly what I'm saying is: focus on cultural differences rather than racial ones when writing docs for these races.

So we'd have a human or elven tribe with certain physical traits and attitudes towards personal property instead of an attitude towards theft that's shared by all elves? I'm not sure how that improves the situation. One thing about Arm has always been that prejudice towards traits like skin color doesn't exist and doesn't make sense. Racism is restricted to fantasy races.

[Minmatar]

OP

This is accurate and not "political correctness run amok". Most of us have seen the various fantasy racial stereotypes you mentioned played uncomfortably close to real life racial stereotypes. It rarely happens out of malicious or overtly racist intent, but it happens as you described. I really have no idea what addressing this would even look like, but I don't think the GDB has the capacity to actually discuss this topic productively.

I hope staff have internal discussions though. This is a real thing and it does turn people away from the game. Also the fix is definitely not Arm 2.0 with the cat people and coneheads, so don't even go there. I don't think Armageddon would have to lose the lore and Dark Sun stuff in question to address it. But it might.

Thanks. This is more or less what I was trying to get at. I didn't know a second version of Armageddon was in progress, but moving away from fantasy races could help set the groundwork for less uncomfortable writing.

[Yam]

Oh no, it's not in progress. It died like 15 years ago and I doubt it would have aged any better than Arm's Dark Sun Roots.

[Lizzie]

And what values would you write them with?

I don't see how that's relevant to the specific conversation? But you can write tribes that value specific trades, have cultural customs related to inter- and intra-tribe relationships, hold ceremonies for things like mating or death... you know. Things that actually make cultures complex in the real world rather than just saying, haha, all those people steal.

The ONLY thing I could even think of to agree with on this is the rampant use of "racism" in the docs. I would much prefer we change the word to "speciesism." And yes I'm dead serious. Elves are not a different race of humans. They are a completely different species. Just like dogs aren't one type of wolf, or wolves aren't one type of dog - each is a type of canine. They usually won't hang out with each other. They usually won't mate with each other (unless specifically to each other with much human interference involved).

Elves and humans are humanOID - not different races of the same species.

That always got me even as far back as the 1970's when I first read the Hobbit and discovered narrative about the "elven race."

Speciesism exists, no one has a problem with it. In fact it reinforces the "ism" a lot better than racism does. You wouldn't have sex with an orangutan would you? No? Why not? What about a Chimpanzee? Would you take a rhesus monkey out on a romantic dinner? No? Why not?

That explains speciesism a WHOLE lot more in the context of Armageddon, than racism does.

[Minmatar]

I don't see how replacing the word "racism" with "speciesism" changes the fact that the "speciesism" in the game has clear connections and is influenced by real-world racism.

[Saellyn]

How do you see the elements of competition and racism changing, though, with your idea? If you change the races around, so that elves aren't natural-born thieves who do it because they're very good at it, how do you see the conflict proceeding? How do the elves remain oppressed?

[valeria]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

[Minmatar]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

Yes, perhaps that would be best, if there isn't a second version of this game coming anytime soon. I didn't know "fantastic racism" was the term for this sort of concept, so thank you for educating me on that as well.

[Minmatar]

Now I see what Yam meant by "I don't think the GDB has the capacity to actually discuss this topic productively". Good luck with your game, everyone. I quit.

[zealus]

Hi there.
I abhor real life racism,  oppression, tyrants, murder, and torture.

I absolutely love exploring those themes in roleplaying. I have played both sides of it; oppressed, oppressor, tyrant, rebel, murderer, victim, ect.
For me, roleplaying is about interaction. About 'What would you do' in a situation. These kind of stories also allow for the story of the person who, despite the differences, is willing to look past race. To stand up for what they believe in. And ultimately to die in the sand like all of the characters in Zalanthas.
And the beauty of it? It's not real. None of the game is. At the end of the day, after playing out a story, you can think back on the scenes, good, bad, or downright grueling, and think to yourself, that was cool. Next story.

Yes, obvious carbon copies of real life cultures are not so cool. This has been pointed out, and addressed.
No, fantasy races are not carbon copies of any real life race. 

Changing a game and pretending racism is a thing that doesn't exist anywhere in the world for it is an Utopian dreamland will do absolutely nothing. I do hope that most of this game's players realizes that the oppression, discrimination and outright brutality of the game (also outside of race issues, because the game has a whole of a lot more layers than that) are not okay out of game.

If that is not the sort of game you want to play? That is fine. But please, do not pretend that because someone is willing to play a character in a story about struggle, racism, oppression and general nastiness, condones those things in real life. Because frankly, that's a little insulting, and I'd like to think better of our playerbase as a whole

[tapas]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

This is a good post. Concise and articulate.

[AdamBlue]

Apparently, this post was redacted.

[triste]

Dwarves striving towards completing their focus seems strikingly similar towards stereotypes about Asians' work ethic...

Not going to quote the rest -- before I begin, I feel obligated to say that your comments here are racist and offensive.

I have never thought this thing your wrote, and the rest of the racist stuff you wrote here. You're projecting your own racist fabrications on us: at no point have I thought about what you wrote here; at no point have I heard this from anyone else either.

As someone who is mixed race, I don't appreciate your racist judgement about a game we play and enjoy.

Own up that you wrote these weird racist statements about dwarves and asians -- nobody else. I have never heard that in my years of playing this game until you wrote it. So it's on you and only on you, buddy. And that said, I don't hate or think you're a bad person for it, I just want to point out the truth of what happened here.

Fiction does not equal reality. Don't change our fictional world because, in your mind, it reminds you of what's wrong about our reality. Work on how you yourself process things and you'll be much happier.

But let me get over the topic of how the only racist Armageddon content I've seen recently is your post. Let me level with you very respectfully:

If you do insist that fiction equals reality and fiction must change like reality, you can start with larger, more culpable targets, like Star Wars and their caricature Jar Jar Binks. As a mixed race person who has enjoyed fictional media for years, it is my opinion that Armageddon handles race with more nuance and respect than literally any other roleplaying game I've played. We censor terminology in this game that is reminiscent of RL slurs so that our players can feel comfortable. We intentionally create that separation between reality and fiction because here at Armageddon we hate RL racism. So if you hate RL racism too, welcome aboard, look at the efforts we have already taken to make players comfortable. We'll continue to make changes as needed to make players comfortable, but it's also fair to expect players to understand the separation of reality and fiction and the fact that Armageddon intentionally [but carefully] deals with difficult topics.

[tapas]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

It's a game with many shitty aspects that have parallels to history. Racism, slavery, oppression, totalitarianism, nepotism, corruption, murder, betrayal... Hey, those last three...

But yeah, good post. List all of the bad bits on the tin if people are worried about it. It may actually attract more people with that stuff in there, maybe a bit like zealus, who like to explore those topics more intimately by being subjected to them and subjecting them.

This is a bad post.

[AdamBlue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[Shalooonsh]

This is, so far, mostly a civil discussion.

It should remain civil.

[Rathustra]

I have locked this discussion as it is highly, highly unlikely to result in anything constructive.

Some posts have been edited - some by the posters, others by staff. There has also been some constructive posts by people willing to consider the topic - or who actually have a stake in the matters being discussed here. However, it is unfair to shoot the messenger or to bury your head in the sand under 20 years of familiarity with the game's world. Try to consider how the things we take for granted as normal and core parts of the game's lore might appear to outsiders and step outside of the callouses we've developed around how we engage with the game and you'll (hopefully) realize that the increasing number of (often) new voices highlighting the oddities and sometimes outright bad holdovers from the past are maybe speaking from a perspective that is worth considering.

It misses the point to make an argument towards documentation when documentation is often misconstrued (due to poor writing) or bypassed in favor for lazy (but understandable) generalizations. Tropes are things (unfortunately) and whether we recognize it or not we are influenced by them and they act as the gross filler that pads our RP.

Creating a species considered 'lesser' and widely disparaged by the 'primary' race who runs the institutions in a city, a species mostly represented in a ghetto, who are described as thieves creates a set of interacting elements that individually are not racist, but result in real-world patterns of abuse and racism to be used in-game instead of ones that are unique to the game. When my noble PC is asked to RP around their disgust at 'rinthi elves, it is inevitable that the RP that results will resemble in shape/structure, if not content, prejudices and patterns of hate that exist in the real world. That is not to say that I am being actively racist - just that I am propagating concepts of racism into the game world.

Another example is the way tribal cultures are represented in game. They are widely set apart as other by settled clans - clans that routinely invade, conquer, exploit and look down on them as not being sophisticated. Again, when I RP around these themes, I need to look carefully at whether or not I am listening a little too hard to 'Run To The Hills' and just reproducing settler/native tropes in the game's context.

The idea that there is nothing here for Armageddon to learn is wrong. Plus, we shouldn't expect the messenger to be an expert here - to have all the answers or to get it right on every mark they take their shot at. Just burying our heads in the sand helps nobody and keeps us chained into the past. It just isn't a good look.

I'm leaving this thread here as I think it is important for people to see, and to read.

edit: If there are complaints about staff handling of this thread, please submit a staff complaint request. These will be reviewed by Producers. If there are particular concerns about Armageddon's handling of racial themes that are pressing enough for it, please also feel free to open a question request to speak directly to staff.

The closure of this thread does not preclude further discussion on this topic - I just feel it is important that this dumpsterfire remain testament to the GDB.