Addressing racist and bigoted elements in documentation

[Minmatar]

Hi! I've only started playing this game about a month ago. This is my first non-clan forum post so I decided to make a new account for it, but I felt that discussing this with the community was particularly important due to recent events and the fact that I'm a person of color who isn't sure how comfortable he should feel about being here yet.

As some of you may have heard, Wizards of the Coast recently announced that they're considering how to reform their racial system, addressing problematic elements and backstories to detach their IP from various stereotypes that exist in the real world. This effort is especially focused on addressing races that have intelligence debuffs, or are described as "savage": these are things that can be connected to real world stereotypes about POC, particularly Black people.

Armageddon is a very old game, and has some elements in its racial system that might have flown under the radar 10 or 20 years ago, but are considered blatant expressions of racism today, especially with current events drawing attention to systems like this in games now. Elves are known for being thieves and natural runners, stereotypes that have existed about Black people for a long time. The extent to which elves are often the first to be suspected of a crime IG seems like a parallel to the racist argument that Black people in the United States account for most of the crimes committed because of their race. Additionally, half-giants are considered naturally unintelligent, which seems strikingly similar to how racists claim Black people have lower IQ scores than whites and must be naturally unintelligent as a result. Gith have a similar reputation and have the addition of being considered "savage", falling into the same pitfall that orcs fall into in traditional D&D. Muls are the product of forced breeding between slaves, which was a terribly common practice in the United States that slave-owners undertook to get more value out of the female slaves they purchased. Various elven and human tribes are depicted as underdeveloped and its members often wear very little clothing, similar to stereotypes about African natives.

It's not just Black people that are affected by these racial backstories. Dwarves striving towards completing their focus seems strikingly similar towards stereotypes about Asians' work ethic; elven facial features almost mirror stereotypical Asian facial features. Half-elven mentalities related to acceptance and independence turn a struggle faced by minorities in general into a racial personality quirk. And other marginalized groups are affected by stereotypes in the documentation: for example, half-giants being unintelligent but strong matches stereotypes about people with learning disabilities.

Additionally, the Tan Muark's backstory is frighteningly similar to that of the Roma people and the IC stereotypes about the Tan Muark are also similar to stereotypes held about the Roma. While it's commendable that this game's staff have adjusted the vernacular used to refer to the Tan Muark, this appears to be a half-measure, as the meat of what makes the depiction of the Tan Muark offensive is still there. It's just referred to by another name. When addressing concerns about racism and bigotry in the future, I hope that the staff and community as a whole agree that giving the racist context of racial backstories a new coat of paint is ineffective, and that the backstories themselves have to be overhauled in order to address situations like these.

These are the similarities I could detect with the knowledge and experience I have, but it's possible that there may be others. I encourage the community to share similarities between game documentation and real-world racism and bigotry if there is something I missed, so that I can learn too. And I wonder: what can or should be done to adjust Armageddon's game documentation as much bigger games recognize that their games are flawed in the same way?

I understand that the game world is supposed to be harsh, and that racism in-game is an IC construct. But I hope that the community can take a look at these issues and see that the IC construct of racism has many parallels to the RL racism that clearly and unfortunately still exists and has had a long-lasting impact on society. Hopefully we can use discussions like these to grow the game into something better and distance itself from the terribly murky past that it has in order to be more welcoming to those who might be willing to try the game out, if not for these painful references. At the end of the day, I'm not trying to dictate how the game should be written, but I am trying to foster polite discussion about what is a sensitive and painful topic.

[Warsong]

I'm liberal to the core and this still seems like political correctness gone mad. What, is gaming as a whole going to completely do away with any race that has disadvantages or prejudices? What's next, the sci-fi genre isn't allowed to portray aliens as savage? Is the xenomorph from Alien considered racist because it has black skin and kills people? I think this is so silly that I'm inclined to suspect it's a trolling effort. Armageddon has already done away with what few things might possibly be construed as a mirroring of real-world racial prejudices, such as the word 'necker' and the gypsy jargon of the Tan Muark. Half-giants are not discriminatory toward people with developmental disorders or RL sufferers of gigantism. This is not the kind of place where the battle for RL racial equality needs to be fought. Dwarves are not a nod to stereotypes of Asian work ethics. Come on, man. Pretty sure you're trolling.

[DesertT]

I really feel like you're reaching here.

You're intentionally looking for similarities.

I'm not going to point out the numerous dissimilarities.

Is it possible to make a race of humanoids that doesn't have a couple of similarities to ANY group of people?

All you've done was target the common races in the game, aside from humans, and point out how they're all somehow violating a racial stereotype.

OMG!!  They Breathe Air!!  Slaves in the US breathed air!!  It Is Known!!

Please stop.

[Cabooze]

Real-life comparisons of racism have no place in Armageddon.. Like.. It doesn't even make sense to make such an over-reach of mental gymnastics. The racism that exists is a two way street, just like in real life. Humans are just as subjugated by other races, as other races are subjugated by humans, particularly with the elf/human dynamic. In fact, you can reach with logic that humans are puny, weak and pathetic compared to dwarves. Dwarves should rule Zalanthas. Dwarf master race.

Tongue-in-cheek aside, just.. Stop. I can't even browse you-tube without having controversy shoved down my throat. Don't let it plague the boards.

[X-D]

Firstly...who cares? If you see a RL parallel then there is a good chance that is by design. Having such a thing is bad exactly how? You could play a breed and have that racism pointed at you...you would then see how it is...one would think that your type would actually think this is a good thing to be able to get into anothers shoes.

Meh, I am not going to bother...I am not liberal at all but I am with Warsong on this point as being silly and appearing to be a troll.

[AdamBlue]

Holy shit.

No, dwarves are not in any way related to the stereotype that asian people work hard. I don't see how the fuck you would even make that connection.

Half-giants have no connection to black people in any way, shape, or form.
I hate to tell you this, but some things share similarities without even being close to a direct comparison. The logical leaps you're taking is something I'm trying to fucking puzzle here.

Genuinely scratching my head trying to work out the inner machinations of your thought process.

I would dare say that Armageddon is surprisingly bereft of any semblance of actual, real racism even if they do want to neuter a few things like some tribes and some specific insults because they're afraid of 'real life comparisons', and this only proves the point that they're even dumber than possibly could be imagined.

You can hate elves without feeling bad about it. You can hate dwarves. You can hate half-giants, you can hate tribals. You can hate Allanakis, you can hate Tulukis. You can hate anyone you want, because it's all fiction and none of these places, people, or things exist. Even the characters you play as don't really exist, it's part of a story that you are making yourselves and it's up to the people to serve as protaganist and antagonist both, with flaws and with boons on each end of the spectrums to provide a cohesive story.

It's thinking that there are deeper inclinations to people's ideals and thoughts that really fucking bugs me, and it really feels like people are trying to subvert others abilities to think using concepts of 'this is actually racist and if you disagree with me you're also racist' that's been happening for the last decade and it drives me fucking crazy as a historian and a libertarian who believes people should have inherent freedom to say and think what they wish even if it may stand against my own interests and beliefs.

I've begun to ramble, but I'll close out with this: Not everything is racist. That WOTC thinks that orcs are somehow racist baffles and disheartens me that they've decided to try and censor themselves for no other reason that they're afraid some people will take things out of context and use it to vilify others. All you're doing is making it worse by saying that there WAS something wrong in the first place; An orc as a green, lumbering brute in stereotypical fashion is absolutely fine, because it made characters that were in fact not so stand out so much more finer and better, (see, Fjord from Critical Role). Is it racist to have an entire race of fictional creatures that have some inherent barbarism to their actions? No, because they are fictional in capacity and attempting to draw any real life comparisons between them and a person's skin color makes -you- the racist, in that moment.

[Thomoto]

I have not logged into the GDB for a long ass time. But uh...

Why, its a game. There's bound to be IRL similarities but you have to take into account that,
a): Its a game that focuses around a harsh and brutal world full of racism (because there are actual races, not like skin tones)
B): A world that has magic, elves and templars is not going to handle racism like we do IRL.

While I agree that racism is bad, and everyone should be considered equal (because they are, no one is above anyone just because of the lack of pigmentation). Being so politically correct that you are pointing out some similarities in a game that is based around the concept of a unforgiving and xenophobic society is just ridiculous.

[Gentleboy]

If anything, I think the game white-washes Middle-Eastern culture with the amount of people who assume that the characters are white due to most of the playerbase being white. But, that makes sense since white people would want to play a white person in fear of being insensitive.

The Dark Sun DND campaign is the source of the races and culture in the game. Is it outdated? I dunno it never really was dated due to being its own world and time.

The players create what their characters look like in the end. If a character is representing a stereotype that is racist and bad, that's more on the player than the game.

To be fair, I think we do have more sexist/homotypical/fetishizing issues in game currently than racist, but I won't go into that here and now. The OP is gonna already have a tough time and I don't want to add fuel to the fire.

[Kankfly]

I'm confused. How do elves have features similar to Asians? Do Asians have sharp ears? Are you referring to the slanty eyes?

I don't think the game is the racist here, if you're making that kind of association.

[HeeBeeGB]

Humans in Zalanthas regardless of the tone of their skin are treated equally.

Men and women are treated equally, despite biological differences. Being a man or a woman does not mean you are better or worse at your job. However, I see your post makes no mention of this, and it is a quality that is unique to this game, and should be applauded.

Androgeny was not only allowed, but coded into the game. In other MUDs, this was considered 'N' for 'Neutered', which itself was a mildly out-dated viewpoint on someone who does not readily identify with their biological gender.

The slight genome differences between humans does not really classify different races in the same way it does in the rest of the animal kingdom. Our concept of race based on geological origin and skin tone is, unfortunately, cultural and societal. Ostensibly, the differences between humans is incredibly minute. It is a problem that we as humans on Planet Earth have created, and now, will have to reckon with.

Speculative fiction and Science Fiction by association have attempted to tackle these societal and cultural issues. Comparing alien races to what we consider as 'different human races', such as in Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", put a spotlight on how quickly we (as humans) are able to label Us versus Them without common ground or attempts at understanding the other side's history, culture, and origin. These explorations are part of what makes these genres philosophical, allowing us to dissect our own prejudices and privileges by using fictional races and societies as examples to draw from.

Drawing comparisons between fictional races and comparing them to real-life human struggle in the manner you are doing is at best, well-intentioned but misguided. At worst, bigoted and diminutive to the actual struggle and history of struggle in America, and the world over, for people who are discriminated against based on their skin, origin, religious background, or practiced religion, among other traits that 'The Other' would define.

I do not think ArmageddonMUD is part of 'The Problem'. If anything, in recent years, Staff have made a concerted effort (for better and for worse) to liberalize aspects of the game they felt were both outdated and overly offensive. For a game built and maintained by volunteers, I don't know what outcome you would be expecting as a response -- For all races that are fictional and biologically different to suddenly be the same and treated the same? For Staff to apologize for IP that they themselves didn't even create? (It was made by TSR in the form of Dark Sun and modified for this game).

Unfortunately, this appears to be another attempt at phishing for troll-fodder. Though well written on the surface, it does not resonate. I would also recommend checking out HellMOO sometime if you really feel like equipping a magnifying glass.

[ABoredLion]

No. Just...no.

While I can see the point you're trying to make, and that these things are all paralleled by something else, remember that most of Armageddon's fantasy style lore (whether or not they want to admit it) is pulled from Dungeons and Dragons stuff. These things were of course influenced by the original nerds and their odd thoughts, but were designed the way they were as a creative attempt to express actual 'races' of imaginary creatures.

These are definitely imaginary, and the only connection with real life (if you were to stretch) would be 'muls' who according to the original documentation for DnD had their name changed (as pronouncing them 'mule' had a connection to racial paradigms of real life). That's it. The people who made Athas's source information went back and corrected this term, because it was actually connected in a way.

While it is true that someone looking at the real world could draw a parallel between 'elves being suspected of thieves' and receiving racial prejudice (whether or not that goes full circle), this is meant to be an expression of a terrible social construct and exchange relative to foreign humanoids, and how these social constructs might occur between differing groups. It's not meant to be a casual way to enjoy night-time racism where you can't express it elsewhere.

It did seem to be true that the Tan Muark were imported rewrites of the Roma people, using their terminology among other things, but staff have gone out of their way recently to revamp them and make them something else. That's a dead horse. Ultimately, most greater tribes of Zalanthas live the same life of the old Tan Muark, if perhaps with slightly different influences to one direction or the other on things. The treatment Tan Muark (and other tribes) were given wasn't given as a method of converting or encouraging a real life bigotry, but looking at how fort-dwelling people might deal with wandering nomads who do whatever is needed to survive, and have no particular loyalty to whatever fortress you're living in.

I don't think any aspects of Arm as they stand currently need rewritten to encourage further welcoming to people. It has a diverse world, with diverse cultures, all of which are meant to explore living a life outside of or within the norm within a crazy, fragmented world. I encourage you to relieve yourself of whatever real life notions or burdens you carry when you enter 'c' at the main menu, and immerse yourself in the adventure.

[Majikal]

strangely in like 20 years of playing this game this anti-racist thread happens to be the most racist post I've seen. I never saw dwarves as 'asian' or elves as 'black' when I played even when the dreaded 'necker' slang was thrown around. I never found the idiocy of half-giants to be paralleled to real life racial stereotypes until this post. The thought of eroding away pieces of roleplay in an online fantasy game about murder, violence and death because they're offense if you squint hard enough is just.. silly.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Hi! I've only started playing this game about a month ago. This is my first non-clan forum post so I decided to make a new account for it, but I felt that discussing this with the community was particularly important due to recent events and the fact that I'm a person of color who isn't sure how comfortable he should feel about being here yet.

As some of you may have heard, Wizards of the Coast recently announced that they're considering how to reform their racial system, addressing problematic elements and backstories to detach their IP from various stereotypes that exist in the real world. This effort is especially focused on addressing races that have intelligence debuffs, or are described as "savage": these are things that can be connected to real world stereotypes about POC, particularly Black people.

Armageddon is a very old game, and has some elements in its racial system that might have flown under the radar 10 or 20 years ago, but are considered blatant expressions of racism today, especially with current events drawing attention to systems like this in games now. Elves are known for being thieves and natural runners, stereotypes that have existed about Black people for a long time. The extent to which elves are often the first to be suspected of a crime IG seems like a parallel to the racist argument that Black people in the United States account for most of the crimes committed because of their race. Additionally, half-giants are considered naturally unintelligent, which seems strikingly similar to how racists claim Black people have lower IQ scores than whites and must be naturally unintelligent as a result. Gith have a similar reputation and have the addition of being considered "savage", falling into the same pitfall that orcs fall into in traditional D&D. Muls are the product of forced breeding between slaves, which was a terribly common practice in the United States that slave-owners undertook to get more value out of the female slaves they purchased. Various elven and human tribes are depicted as underdeveloped and its members often wear very little clothing, similar to stereotypes about African natives.

It's not just Black people that are affected by these racial backstories. Dwarves striving towards completing their focus seems strikingly similar towards stereotypes about Asians' work ethic; elven facial features almost mirror stereotypical Asian facial features. Half-elven mentalities related to acceptance and independence turn a struggle faced by minorities in general into a racial personality quirk. And other marginalized groups are affected by stereotypes in the documentation: for example, half-giants being unintelligent but strong matches stereotypes about people with learning disabilities.

Additionally, the Tan Muark's backstory is frighteningly similar to that of the Roma people and the IC stereotypes about the Tan Muark are also similar to stereotypes held about the Roma. While it's commendable that this game's staff have adjusted the vernacular used to refer to the Tan Muark, this appears to be a half-measure, as the meat of what makes the depiction of the Tan Muark offensive is still there. It's just referred to by another name. When addressing concerns about racism and bigotry in the future, I hope that the staff and community as a whole agree that giving the racist context of racial backstories a new coat of paint is ineffective, and that the backstories themselves have to be overhauled in order to address situations like these.

These are the similarities I could detect with the knowledge and experience I have, but it's possible that there may be others. I encourage the community to share similarities between game documentation and real-world racism and bigotry if there is something I missed, so that I can learn too. And I wonder: what can or should be done to adjust Armageddon's game documentation as much bigger games recognize that their games are flawed in the same way?

I understand that the game world is supposed to be harsh, and that racism in-game is an IC construct. But I hope that the community can take a look at these issues and see that the IC construct of racism has many parallels to the RL racism that clearly and unfortunately still exists and has had a long-lasting impact on society. Hopefully we can use discussions like these to grow the game into something better and distance itself from the terribly murky past that it has in order to be more welcoming to those who might be willing to try the game out, if not for these painful references. At the end of the day, I'm not trying to dictate how the game should be written, but I am trying to foster polite discussion about what is a sensitive and painful topic.

What is this thread? Just to add onto the flaming dumpster fire...

You say elves are like black people, and half-giants are like black people?  Well..  how exactly do two completely different races do that? But wait, elves are also like Asians?  Make up your damn mind!

As a new player, let me tell you a tidbit of lore that might put things into perspective. You know why giths are depicted as savages? Because they are savages. They are an extremely xenophobic race of beings, whose only interaction with other races they find appealing is torture. And possibly eating them, too.

Why are elves usually suspected for committing a theft? Because not only are they damn good at it, but it's also stated on their racial help file that theft is something they admire. Such accusations may wind up being false, as there's nothing stopping a human, a dwarf, or even a half-giant from being a thief.. except, well.. raw talent. But I still wouldn't even call another character in the game who first suspected an elf of stealing something as racist.

As for half-giants, well.. fact of the matter is, in the game world, they are quite stupid. But it's not some kind of racism based on generalization. It's really just how the world in game is.

If you can wrap your head around it and stop looking for parallels in real life where there aren't, fine, good for you.  But if no matter what anyone tells you, you still feel offended or uncomfortable with this game, well.. you don't have to play. Bye!

[tapas]

Surely this first time poster is just voicing valid concerns about the setting and has nothing to do with similar first time posts involving valid concerns about armageddon that seems to crop up quarterly on public forums.

That said, I consider it valid in the postmodern sense. A person wrote these races and that person's writing was informed by their personal social context at the time of their writing. This context includes how they understand race and prejudice. This context may also have informed how these races to relate to each other. So we get these races in a roleplaying game that have some uncanny resemblance to ___ people group in real life. Then you heap on the fantasy racism and... we might have a problem that deserves a bit of self-reflection.

Yeah man, elves are a marginalized ghetto minority that uhhh, steal lots? Riveting critique you got there. I bet nobody else saw it.

You'll find this all over most fantasy actually.

Invading hordes of cannibalistic pig-skinned marauders, whose savagery are only matched for their hate for everything decent about civilization?

Holy shit, Tolkein! Stop watching Fox News!

[Doublepalli]

Don't take the roaring majority of backlash personally Mimmatar.

Half of these guys are closet rascists or openly rascist on discord.

[BadSkeelz]

Observing tenuous racial stereotypes in fictional races says more about the observer than the observed material.

Don't take the roaring majority of backlash personally Mimmatar.

Half of these guys are closet rascists or openly rascist on discord.

I'm not in the Discord.

[tapas]

Don't take the roaring majority of backlash personally Mimmatar.

Half of these guys are closet rascists or openly rascist on discord.

Can you document it? Anything explicitly racist on the discord is grounds for a quick ban.

[Minmatar]

I really did not expect this extreme level of backlash. What I was trying to do was point out a few concerning match-ups between racism in Armageddon and racism in the real world, which is something the creators of D&D are trying to address in their own games.

I don't get the argument that I'm somehow racist for writing this post, particularly from someone who is marked as a helper. I am not trying to say elves are like Black people; I am trying to say that human prejudices against elves in Armageddon's setting are similar to many whilte people's prejudices against Black people in the real world. If you insist on reading my post that uncharitably I don't know how we can have a discussion about the same concerns much larger game designers like WotC are doing.

To the person who said not to take the backlash personally, how can I not? I'm a POC that had my concerns about the setting completely dismissed. Instead of harboring a discussion about how Armageddon can potentially change for the better in the future, people insisted on implying I am a racist, overly politically correct, an agitator trying to concern troll, and so on and so forth. I came to this game to be a part of a community and I have quickly seen that many members of the community don't believe I belong because I tried to rock the boat and see if others see at least some of the same problems I do.

Can we maybe calm down a little bit and try to visit this topic from that perspective? Looking at how Armageddon borrows from real life bigoted stereotypes and how we can write a game setting that doesn't?

[Doublepalli]

I get it, I am a PoC too. But you can't forcibly change someone's mind. They have to want to change. The best you can do - is give them the information and make them aware as you are doing. What staff chooses to do with it, we will see.

[Saellyn]

If you look deep enough, racism is everywhere. Spend your time not looking for the racism, and you won't see it much at all. If you came here to look at elves and go "wow, those are stereotyped as black people", then look at half-giants and go "wow, those are stereotyped as black people", then I don't know what to tell you here.

How would you write the race of elves? How would you write the race of half-giants?

How would you write dwarves?

It isn't enough that you "see" racism because you went looking for it. How would you change it? What would you replace these "racist" elements with?

[Minmatar]

The problem is not that I'm looking for racism, the problem is that a cursory look reveals that it's there. If D&D recognized its issues, is it much of a surprise that a D&D-derived game has issues too?

The way to write races in a non-racist way is to focus on physical traits and de-emphasize psychological compulsions in exchange for writing new cultures. For example, don't write that all elves scam and steal their way through life because of some mental or biological desire to do so. Write different tribes city and desert elves can be a part of and give them different values that they can accept and live with, or dissent against and carve a new counter-culture. It isn't that hard to do.

[Saellyn]

And what values would you write them with?

[Minmatar]

And what values would you write them with?

I don't see how that's relevant to the specific conversation? But you can write tribes that value specific trades, have cultural customs related to inter- and intra-tribe relationships, hold ceremonies for things like mating or death... you know. Things that actually make cultures complex in the real world rather than just saying, haha, all those people steal.

[Saellyn]

It matters because, if you looked into any of the elven tribes that do exist in the game, there is a lot more to them than theft. The race as a whole is generally focused on intense trust of those who are proven to be reliable and trustworthy via a series of complicated tests. The theft and penchant for swindling is because, in this world, elves are an oppressed minority race who do what they can to get by. Often, because their options for employment are very very limited, they turn to theft to make ends meet. There are no elven Great Merchant Houses, no elven Templars, and there are certainly no elven nobles. What they have in this world is what they can take.

[Minmatar]

I'm aware that those tribal cultures exist, the problem is that there is still that underpinning that connects elves that is specifically designed to make humans racist toward elves. Which is the same work that racial stereotypes do in the real world to turn people of other races against one another. Mainly what I'm saying is: focus on cultural differences rather than racial ones when writing docs for these races.

But, I am coming here as a new player telling that to veteran players who have enjoyed this game for years. Frankly, very defensive players who seem largely unwilling to admit the messy problems with this kind of writing, but veteran players nonetheless. Perhaps it's best if I take one poster's advice and just get out of here, because it doesn't seem like the game's staff or helpers are interested in entertaining the possibility this game is unwelcoming.

[Yam]

OP

This is accurate and not "political correctness run amok". Most of us have seen the various fantasy racial stereotypes you mentioned played uncomfortably close to real life racial stereotypes. It rarely happens out of malicious or overtly racist intent, but it happens as you described. I really have no idea what addressing this would even look like, but I don't think the GDB has the capacity to actually discuss this topic productively.

I hope staff have internal discussions though. This is a real thing and it does turn people away from the game. Also the fix is definitely not Arm 2.0 with the cat people and coneheads, so don't even go there. I don't think Armageddon would have to lose the lore and Dark Sun stuff in question to address it. But it might.

[Nao]

Elves don't even see stealing as a bad thing. It's more of a display of superiority, a feat to be proud of, if they can pull it off. They also have a very, very wide definition of stealing (edit: something that human PCs rarely seem to understand IG). I remember an elf assassin who "stole futures". The future of his victims, and all their descendants.

On the original topic, I'll just repeat what I said on discord:

Fictional societies (especially scifi) has been used for a long time to point out real, non-fictional social problems. I do see a lot of parallels with arm, especially elves, and real life oppression. But I also see that as more of an opportunity to better understand how the mechanisms at work than a problem with the game that needs to be corrected. Then again I see a lot of people playing out their IG hatred closer to caricatures and comic book villains so I'm not sure how well that's working for everyone.

Mainly what I'm saying is: focus on cultural differences rather than racial ones when writing docs for these races.

So we'd have a human or elven tribe with certain physical traits and attitudes towards personal property instead of an attitude towards theft that's shared by all elves? I'm not sure how that improves the situation. One thing about Arm has always been that prejudice towards traits like skin color doesn't exist and doesn't make sense. Racism is restricted to fantasy races.

[Minmatar]

OP

This is accurate and not "political correctness run amok". Most of us have seen the various fantasy racial stereotypes you mentioned played uncomfortably close to real life racial stereotypes. It rarely happens out of malicious or overtly racist intent, but it happens as you described. I really have no idea what addressing this would even look like, but I don't think the GDB has the capacity to actually discuss this topic productively.

I hope staff have internal discussions though. This is a real thing and it does turn people away from the game. Also the fix is definitely not Arm 2.0 with the cat people and coneheads, so don't even go there. I don't think Armageddon would have to lose the lore and Dark Sun stuff in question to address it. But it might.

Thanks. This is more or less what I was trying to get at. I didn't know a second version of Armageddon was in progress, but moving away from fantasy races could help set the groundwork for less uncomfortable writing.

[Yam]

Oh no, it's not in progress. It died like 15 years ago and I doubt it would have aged any better than Arm's Dark Sun Roots.

[Lizzie]

And what values would you write them with?

I don't see how that's relevant to the specific conversation? But you can write tribes that value specific trades, have cultural customs related to inter- and intra-tribe relationships, hold ceremonies for things like mating or death... you know. Things that actually make cultures complex in the real world rather than just saying, haha, all those people steal.

The ONLY thing I could even think of to agree with on this is the rampant use of "racism" in the docs. I would much prefer we change the word to "speciesism." And yes I'm dead serious. Elves are not a different race of humans. They are a completely different species. Just like dogs aren't one type of wolf, or wolves aren't one type of dog - each is a type of canine. They usually won't hang out with each other. They usually won't mate with each other (unless specifically to each other with much human interference involved).

Elves and humans are humanOID - not different races of the same species.

That always got me even as far back as the 1970's when I first read the Hobbit and discovered narrative about the "elven race."

Speciesism exists, no one has a problem with it. In fact it reinforces the "ism" a lot better than racism does. You wouldn't have sex with an orangutan would you? No? Why not? What about a Chimpanzee? Would you take a rhesus monkey out on a romantic dinner? No? Why not?

That explains speciesism a WHOLE lot more in the context of Armageddon, than racism does.

[Minmatar]

I don't see how replacing the word "racism" with "speciesism" changes the fact that the "speciesism" in the game has clear connections and is influenced by real-world racism.

[Saellyn]

How do you see the elements of competition and racism changing, though, with your idea? If you change the races around, so that elves aren't natural-born thieves who do it because they're very good at it, how do you see the conflict proceeding? How do the elves remain oppressed?

[valeria]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

[Minmatar]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

Yes, perhaps that would be best, if there isn't a second version of this game coming anytime soon. I didn't know "fantastic racism" was the term for this sort of concept, so thank you for educating me on that as well.

[Minmatar]

Now I see what Yam meant by "I don't think the GDB has the capacity to actually discuss this topic productively". Good luck with your game, everyone. I quit.

[zealus]

Hi there.
I abhor real life racism,  oppression, tyrants, murder, and torture.

I absolutely love exploring those themes in roleplaying. I have played both sides of it; oppressed, oppressor, tyrant, rebel, murderer, victim, ect.
For me, roleplaying is about interaction. About 'What would you do' in a situation. These kind of stories also allow for the story of the person who, despite the differences, is willing to look past race. To stand up for what they believe in. And ultimately to die in the sand like all of the characters in Zalanthas.
And the beauty of it? It's not real. None of the game is. At the end of the day, after playing out a story, you can think back on the scenes, good, bad, or downright grueling, and think to yourself, that was cool. Next story.

Yes, obvious carbon copies of real life cultures are not so cool. This has been pointed out, and addressed.
No, fantasy races are not carbon copies of any real life race. 

Changing a game and pretending racism is a thing that doesn't exist anywhere in the world for it is an Utopian dreamland will do absolutely nothing. I do hope that most of this game's players realizes that the oppression, discrimination and outright brutality of the game (also outside of race issues, because the game has a whole of a lot more layers than that) are not okay out of game.

If that is not the sort of game you want to play? That is fine. But please, do not pretend that because someone is willing to play a character in a story about struggle, racism, oppression and general nastiness, condones those things in real life. Because frankly, that's a little insulting, and I'd like to think better of our playerbase as a whole

[tapas]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

This is a good post. Concise and articulate.

[AdamBlue]

Apparently, this post was redacted.

[triste]

Dwarves striving towards completing their focus seems strikingly similar towards stereotypes about Asians' work ethic...

Not going to quote the rest -- before I begin, I feel obligated to say that your comments here are racist and offensive.

I have never thought this thing your wrote, and the rest of the racist stuff you wrote here. You're projecting your own racist fabrications on us: at no point have I thought about what you wrote here; at no point have I heard this from anyone else either.

As someone who is mixed race, I don't appreciate your racist judgement about a game we play and enjoy.

Own up that you wrote these weird racist statements about dwarves and asians -- nobody else. I have never heard that in my years of playing this game until you wrote it. So it's on you and only on you, buddy. And that said, I don't hate or think you're a bad person for it, I just want to point out the truth of what happened here.

Fiction does not equal reality. Don't change our fictional world because, in your mind, it reminds you of what's wrong about our reality. Work on how you yourself process things and you'll be much happier.

But let me get over the topic of how the only racist Armageddon content I've seen recently is your post. Let me level with you very respectfully:

If you do insist that fiction equals reality and fiction must change like reality, you can start with larger, more culpable targets, like Star Wars and their caricature Jar Jar Binks. As a mixed race person who has enjoyed fictional media for years, it is my opinion that Armageddon handles race with more nuance and respect than literally any other roleplaying game I've played. We censor terminology in this game that is reminiscent of RL slurs so that our players can feel comfortable. We intentionally create that separation between reality and fiction because here at Armageddon we hate RL racism. So if you hate RL racism too, welcome aboard, look at the efforts we have already taken to make players comfortable. We'll continue to make changes as needed to make players comfortable, but it's also fair to expect players to understand the separation of reality and fiction and the fact that Armageddon intentionally [but carefully] deals with difficult topics.

[tapas]

I mostly agree with Yam.  My significant other, who is Black, won't play any game with fantastic racism (which is the specific term for the issues raised by the OP) because it inevitably ends up having parallels to real-life racism.  Fantastic racism exists in a lot of fiction, including fiction by people of color (for instance, the Broken Earth series by N.K. Jeminsin).  I will note that the OP didn't even address half-breed angst/half-breed discrimination, which is an entire trope.

However, pretending like racism doesn't exist or make up a huge part of the game and essentially whitewashing the game documentation wouldn't suddenly make everything better.  It would be just sweeping everything under the rug, which is also a problem that has led us to where we are today, where white people pretend that issues of racial oppression don't exist, haven't existed, and affect nothing. 

So, while I agree that this is an actual thing, I don't think that it can be addressed in the way the OP wants to address it.  If you get rid of the fantastic racism, Armageddon isn't Armageddon: it's some other fantasy game entirely.

I think it would be better to acknowledge that it's a thing without entirely rewriting the game.  There should probably be a content warning somewhere that, while the game doesn't have human racism, it does have fantastic racism between species, so that those people it really bothers are aware that it exists and can make an informed decision about whether to play this particular game.

It's a game with many shitty aspects that have parallels to history. Racism, slavery, oppression, totalitarianism, nepotism, corruption, murder, betrayal... Hey, those last three...

But yeah, good post. List all of the bad bits on the tin if people are worried about it. It may actually attract more people with that stuff in there, maybe a bit like zealus, who like to explore those topics more intimately by being subjected to them and subjecting them.

This is a bad post.

[AdamBlue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[Shalooonsh]

This is, so far, mostly a civil discussion.

It should remain civil.

[Rathustra]

I have locked this discussion as it is highly, highly unlikely to result in anything constructive.

Some posts have been edited - some by the posters, others by staff. There has also been some constructive posts by people willing to consider the topic - or who actually have a stake in the matters being discussed here. However, it is unfair to shoot the messenger or to bury your head in the sand under 20 years of familiarity with the game's world. Try to consider how the things we take for granted as normal and core parts of the game's lore might appear to outsiders and step outside of the callouses we've developed around how we engage with the game and you'll (hopefully) realize that the increasing number of (often) new voices highlighting the oddities and sometimes outright bad holdovers from the past are maybe speaking from a perspective that is worth considering.

It misses the point to make an argument towards documentation when documentation is often misconstrued (due to poor writing) or bypassed in favor for lazy (but understandable) generalizations. Tropes are things (unfortunately) and whether we recognize it or not we are influenced by them and they act as the gross filler that pads our RP.

Creating a species considered 'lesser' and widely disparaged by the 'primary' race who runs the institutions in a city, a species mostly represented in a ghetto, who are described as thieves creates a set of interacting elements that individually are not racist, but result in real-world patterns of abuse and racism to be used in-game instead of ones that are unique to the game. When my noble PC is asked to RP around their disgust at 'rinthi elves, it is inevitable that the RP that results will resemble in shape/structure, if not content, prejudices and patterns of hate that exist in the real world. That is not to say that I am being actively racist - just that I am propagating concepts of racism into the game world.

Another example is the way tribal cultures are represented in game. They are widely set apart as other by settled clans - clans that routinely invade, conquer, exploit and look down on them as not being sophisticated. Again, when I RP around these themes, I need to look carefully at whether or not I am listening a little too hard to 'Run To The Hills' and just reproducing settler/native tropes in the game's context.

The idea that there is nothing here for Armageddon to learn is wrong. Plus, we shouldn't expect the messenger to be an expert here - to have all the answers or to get it right on every mark they take their shot at. Just burying our heads in the sand helps nobody and keeps us chained into the past. It just isn't a good look.

I'm leaving this thread here as I think it is important for people to see, and to read.

edit: If there are complaints about staff handling of this thread, please submit a staff complaint request. These will be reviewed by Producers. If there are particular concerns about Armageddon's handling of racial themes that are pressing enough for it, please also feel free to open a question request to speak directly to staff.

The closure of this thread does not preclude further discussion on this topic - I just feel it is important that this dumpsterfire remain testament to the GDB.