The stealth meta

[Greve]

This came up in another thread, and it sounded like a lot of people wanted to discuss it. Here's the short and sweet of it: stealth seems too good, at least at the upper end of the spectrum. People with the right skills and stats become completely undetectable, and the game lacks ways to search a room or otherwise counter stealth that you can't spot with scan. After all, quite a lot of classes lack the scan skill altogether and are completely unable to even attempt to do anything about a hidden player in the room.

From what I can tell, the issue seems to be that agility adds way more to stealth than wisdom does to detection. I've had a miscreant with maxed master scan and above average wisdom, and he simply never detected any hidden PCs. I suspect it's because people who play the classes with sub-master stealth don't really go around stealthing in the city, while those who play classes with master make sure to "build" their characters to be undetectable. Maybe I could have scanned better if I'd prioritized wisdom, maybe not; prioritizing wisdom is such an unappealing prospect that I wouldn't have done it either way.

But I think the discussion has to come down to this question: do we want undetectable stealth in the game? Is it balanced? If it isn't possible, is stealth good enough? Could you really rely on stealth if it was balanced such that anyone with a similar level of scan would spot you some of the time? Alright, that's more than one question.

I'm not sure which side of the fence I'm on. On one hand, I think it's a little bit ridiculous that there are characters who just get to be completely invisible at will. There's quite a lot of things you can do and remain hidden, such as stealing. As we know, most skills when maxed out pretty much stop failing. The ability to safely help yourself to the inventories of anyone and everyone sounds really unbalanced. But what if that weren't possible? Would people play criminals if getting caught hidden was a regular occurrence? Would it be possible to use stealth in life-or-death situations if anyone with high scan probably spots you?

One thing I'm certain about: the randomness of stats affects your character's potential too much. Your agility roll decides whether your miscreant is detectable by anyone with master scan, or noone. That's a really big deal. Stats are similarly instrumental to combat, and the fact of the matter is that for character concepts that rely on certain categories of skills, stats will absolutely determine whether you're great or alright. That's a shame. I could make a miscreant and prioritize agility first, giving me a pretty good chance to hit the stealth ceiling; or I could prioritize another stat first and agility second, and if I'm lucky I still hit the stealth ceiling while also landing another high stat that suddenly makes my character way better at detecting other stealthers, or at combat, or surviving large chunks of damage.

In a game where class balance and skill distribution is designed as carefully as this, I think maybe stats just matter too much. It was recently suggested to give master scan to the soldier class because it's a little lacking in uniqueness, and everyone was like "hell no, way OP." But at the same time, a toss of the dice determines whether or not my miscreant is detectable by master scan. Or whether my raider hits you solidly or grievously. That seems wrong. We have these painstakingly designed classes and then statrolls matter way more.

Then there's the matter of what's good for roleplay in general. I don't think I'm causing anyone to gasp when I say that city play is a bit of a tame affair at the moment. There's not much going on and not many people around. I might venture to suggest that this stems, in some small part at least, from the fact that there's an overly pampered city-based class that happens to get super-stealth and master in every criminal skill. Miscreant, I've heard, is the most played class. Stalker apparently comes in second. You know, the two classes with master stealth. Every other person you meet probably has master hide, sneak and scan. I wonder if this hasn't proven unhealthy for city play. Hasn't this created the so-called stealth meta? We know raiders and enforcers are not behind that, at least!

Quite a few classes get advanced scan. This seems completely worthless. Some on this forum even say that master scan is worthless, for the reasons outlined above. Advanced scan - and especially journeyman; talk about pointlessness! - just counts for nothing. It seems you generally need your scan to be one level above the next guy's hide in order to have a chance at spotting them. Nevertheless, I still see people suggesting giving this or that class advanced scan. I even saw mansa recommend journeyman scan for a class. On my last character, it wasn't until a ways into advanced scan that I began to be able to detect rats!

To put a TL;DR on it, I think the issue with stealth comes down to the fact that with enough agility, you boost your hide beyond the reach of scan which doesn't seem to enjoy the same benefits from wisdom as stealth does from agility (and potentially equipment). And when it ends up being such a binary thing, too much rides on the roll of the dice. It feels bad when you enter the game, see your stats, and instantly realize that your character will not be one of the ones who get to participate in the stealth meta.

[Dresan]

The answer is yes I want stealth to beat scan.

Strong stealth adds much more danger and mystery to to the game. This game cannot be just about prioritizing strength and using etwo on combat heavy characters.

But....

What did that person invest in to get that unbeatable stealth and what did that other person invest in to be able to detect stealth is what we should really be looking at.

For example:
If the person is playing an elf and is sacrificing a bunch of potential RP (exploration,riding, skimmers clans, shit strength, shit endurance, no tribes etc) that come with playing this race, AND they are prioritizing agility AND they are playing something with master hide or advance hide(+gear), then yes their stealth should beat human master scan, even if the human is prioritizing wisdom. But equally an elf with only advance hide should probably have a much more difficult time with other elves/breed that have master scan AND prioritized wisdom.

The other problem is with scan itself. Its too all or nothing.

Unless scan+wisdom bonus is way WAY higher then the hide+bonus, you should be able to notice something from the corner of your eye, but not just be able to 'look shadow'. Unless you are hiding yourself while looking for someone, searching for someone hidden should have its own command with a before delay and should be very noticeable by anyone with high watch.

This means that even if hide fails a check, unless their wisdom and scan is way higher then your hide and bonuses you'll be able to walk away before someone fully finds you. On the other side, someone looking should have an increasing chance to find someone they've spotted after searching the same room repeatedly, but again it would take time and be very obvious unless they were hiding themselves.  That said, if you have not invested in a class with master scan or used wisdom as a dump stat then only thing you might notice and find is a rat scurrying about for all your time and effort put in.

Currently though its too easy to have unbeatable stealth, and on the other side of the coin its too punishing when you don't have unbeatable stealth.

[Doublepalli]

All it takes is a drovian or a templar for that 1% stealthies.

You can't scan a high agi human miscreant either.

Elves can't scan a human max hide unless max wisdom.  Elves can't even scan other elves. And if you assume all elves are on the same team, reread elf docs.

Wisdom is def broken (not in a good way) in regards to stealth.

But a stealthy exposed is a stealthys dead or blacklisted socially, politically, ooclly.

Not playing a stealthy rn, but I feel they need a certain level of protection granted via stealth.

Ask yourself. If you are spamming look 10 times with master scan should you?

A professional is a professional. Advanced hide should be scannable. But like a heavy, no one should be on par with your trade.

Still tons of factors and penalties in regards to where stealthiest are, you will fail at master too. let alone the fact you can fighter/drovian(or whiran) and mess a stealthys day. Or a templar.

Stop the "we can't scan a true stealthy with our one hit kill heavy" meta.

Did we forget about 'gicks?

[Dresan]

Elves can't scan a human max hide unless max wisdom.

I fixed that part for you, since wisdom really feels broken.  i don't disagree with the rest of what you said.

[Pew Pew]

The game is not supposed to be balanced. If we want a completely balanced game that is a different discussion.

That being said, it has always been weird to me that max hide cannot be seen with scan, but Mon Invis can. It should be opposite, meaning 20% success rate of seeing max hidden pc with a max scan pc and it goes up with wisdom, and Mon invis, hell all invis, should be seen only with detect invis.

[Dresan]

There is balance in this game. Its just not always coded balance, as with the case with magickers.

[Pew Pew]

There is balance in this game. Its just not always coded balance, as with the case with magickers.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I see the issue as a balancing act. We want to make stealth useful and succeed a lot, as it has been pointed out that stealth characters quickly wind up dead once they have been detected. I would propose this...

Normal stealth abilities, like hiding, sneaking, or otherwise moving around undetected should be the same.  Extremely difficult, if not impossible to detect by most people.

However, once you start directly affecting people.. as in, stealing from them, planting items, opening containers on them, etc, these stealthed abilities have a significantly lower chance of working undetected. Even with "maxed" skills. Perhaps there wouldn't be any danger against people without scan or who are otherwise unsuspecting, but people with scan, especially maxed scan, should have a fair chance of noticing. Once this happens, that stealthy character is then open to being watched for a brief moment before they inevitably slink back into the shadows.

What this means is that a stealthy person simply being sneaky can do so practically "invisibly" as before, though all they are really capable of doing is gathering intel. Or perhaps, simply moving around, eluding capture and guards undetected, for whatever reason.  But, once they start acting like an a-hole, there could be a chance they are discovered, if only briefly. At the very least, this will help prevent tons of people being picked clean by the master thief that decides to give everyone grief at the Gaj.

The way I'd rather have it designed, stealth characters will have to pick and choose their targets carefully, in the right time and in the right place, rather than have a hayday at everyone's expense every single time, except when there's templar or a drovian. I'd kind of like to let them have a feeling of "invincibility", but only so long as they aren't getting too close to people and messing with their stuff. Then, when it comes down to maxed stealing with high agility and maxed scan with high wisdom, I'd rather it be more like a coin toss.. and that, a stupid cocky thief is bound to lose eventually.

[valeria]

I think that active stealth should remain a trump to passive scanning on the same level, for the reasons previously discussed.  You are completely screwed once you're outed as a thief or assassin, to a ridiculous level.  But as it currently stands, it's just stupid that you can know you're getting robbed and do nothing about it.

There are a couple of different ways you could handle the thief stealing you blind with no recourse issue.  Ideas I've seen and like include:

watch self - you are now watching your own bags and pockets, you have a higher chance to see when people mess with you, a lower chance to notice everything else - this would be sensible because when you feel a hand going through your pockets, wouldn't you hold your purse closed?

search room - you start tossing the room/going through the people in it, it echoes to the room when you start, giving the sneaky a chance to escape if they can - would also be useful for when you have someone cold in an apartment and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to find them

[Dresan]

There is already a skill that helps protect against many sneaky attacks and that is listen.

Peek fails a lot at master. Wisdom doesn't seem to help with this skill at all. It has the potential to break hide every time it fails and if you spam it more then 3-4 times the staff will harass you about it. Steal can also surprisingly fail a lot even at master with elven agility, I think high agility helps you over come high listen skill+wisdom but never really sure when it comes to wisdom these days. Of sleight of hand fails at master too regardless of stats it seems on either side of the coin.

In short just because you might have found you pockets open doesn't mean the thief was able to see anything. They probably lost karma just for the attempt and if they continue playing a thief, they will eventually get caught or spotted and hunted down by everyone. If steal ever gets nerfed even more then I hope people will have no complaints when they combat weak pcs begin getting killed just so their shoes get taken.

Basically. despite the fact that one helps the other, theft and stealth are two different concepts in my books as stealth leads to a lot more other things then just finding your undies are missing.

[deskoft]

I feel instead that a stronger formula could be implemented to define what rooms you can feasibly steal / hide in, and apply the appriate freezing cooldown where approrpiate. IMHO, the less weight of objects in a room & lack of crowded flags, the bigger the delay after stealing - failing or succeeding.

Whereas if you're in a crowded crafting room with 1000424929429342 objects, stealing something from someone or hiding from them should be quick.

Think about it IRL:

You are in a private booth with a person. You want to steal something from their pocket. You have to take your time, slowly, and if you attempt to steal from them, they should reasonably have all the time in the world to grab your hand, slap you in the face, subdue you, etc. It's one on one. However, the same scenario, in a crowded room, all you need to go is to bump against them, steal from them. They might feel you, but you're gone.

I feel it'd be cool to have realistic formulas like this so that theft IS possible, reasonable, and even somewhat OP in a poor world such as ours - but not in every setting. Someone shadowing you into a tiny booth should be incredibly difficult, IMHO, due to the infrastructure of the location.

[Dresan]

I am okay with theft being nerfed, but in exchange searching for a thief should cost stun points for every attempt. And all miscreants should get master backstab with extra damage bonus if they stab someone busy searching.

If you notice something strange in the room, and want to risk your lives searching for it instead of running away, by all means go for it. There needs to be risk with the rewards.

Again stealth which was the topic is different then theft after all, if i had my way theft skills should work perfectly without the need to hide. That way you wouldn't know if it was someone hidden or one of the other people just chatting who you weren't watching.

[Brokkr]

Yes, we are aware stealth has issues.

Personal opinion:

Wilderness stealth is more balanced than city stealth.  Major reason being something that hasn't been explicitly touched on here.  That said, both borked.

Stealth/scan bonuses could use a rework.

Scan power can't really be increased without putting in place some sort of scan vs stealth check memory, so you can't just spam scan.

Scan vs stealth could use at least one if not two intermediary steps.  Most beneficial would be a step where you can see there is a shadow, you can target them, but you cannot clearly look at them for desc/equip.  Less beneficial would be a step where you can see a shadow but not target them.

[ABoredLion]

I think the current problem is that to fix stealth, you'd have to change a bunch of things.

Maybe stealth wouldn't have to be so bonkers difficult if it weren't for the fact that scan detecting people even 1/10th of the times didn't result in people spamming look room 30x the second anything seems up. I don't need to be a staffer to know that's exactly what everyone does.

I do think active bad behavior with stealth characters should be addressed. You should never be stealing from a target that there's no way you can steal from IC, but you're doing it because you have coded power. That's just bad behavior. Should definitely be addressed on a player by player basis.

I'd happily support some changes to stealth if there was an added in-built timer that when you tried to 'scan' out a stealthy in a room (and failed to see them) looking again in the next 10 minutes (or 20, or whatever) yielded you nothing. As it stands, if you even had a 1/20 odds of spotting that master stealth guy (who btw, definitely did give up tons to get that), 90% of players are just going to spam look at the room and then try to get a glance before calling out their whole sdesc/mdesc to everyone within Waying distance. Spoiler: That's everyone.

So to put it lightly, I think stealth is strong in the sense that people can avoid being found. That's always going to be inherently strong. I think they currently give up quite a bit for that, though. Too much, almost, in some cases.

In the case of silly/bad stealth/thievery, I'd encourage some code to go in that successively stealing from the same person scales massively in difficulty, so that you can only ever manage one or two reasonable moments of pickpocketing before moving on for a new mark. I don't know how that'd get codedly handled, but it's a thought.

I just can't get behind the idea that master scan can scan out master hide even 1/20th of the time currently, because when 5 soldiers are searching for someone, they're all spamming look ten times a piece. And it's all over.

TLDR; I think much like Brokkr on this issue.

[Narf]

Yes, we are aware stealth has issues.

Personal opinion:

Wilderness stealth is more balanced than city stealth.  Major reason being something that hasn't been explicitly touched on here.  That said, both borked.

Stealth/scan bonuses could use a rework.

Scan power can't really be increased without putting in place some sort of scan vs stealth check memory, so you can't just spam scan.

Scan vs stealth could use at least one if not two intermediary steps.  Most beneficial would be a step where you can see there is a shadow, you can target them, but you cannot clearly look at them for desc/equip.  Less beneficial would be a step where you can see a shadow but not target them.

How about add some functionality to search? If you think wilderness sneaking is pretty balanced, give search a new feature where you can search the room (indoors only) for people instead of exits. Give it a nice long delay, plenty of time for sneaky sorts to vacate the area. Now they have a choice, get revealed or leave. It doesn't invalidate stealth entirely, just gives it a very limited way to counteract it that's useful in certain contexts only.

[Dresan]

Since you can be miscreant/magicker, I find it interesting that people think there should be PCs in the city that shouldn't be touched. The PC that should be hard to steal from nobles/templars/sponsored roles are already hard to steal from for a number of reasons, so do so at your own risk.

For every IC reason you can think of why someone's stuff in their pack should be safe, there can be many IC counter arguments to it. Just a battle of imagination and bias which often turns into a hyperbole. 

Thief skills do tend to have a big reliance on stealth for extra bonuses. I would consider removing any reliance on stealth, with no chance of noticing them if you are actively watching the wrong target(others may still notice). That way the person robbing you could have just as easily been that sleepy grebber at the bar while you were busy chatting up a storm with that other PC with the nice ass.

Some additional thoughts for those playing wanting to play or bash thieves:

• Active thieves are eventually exposed. Skills fails or people just 'know'. 
• Playing an active exposed thief is sometimes no different then playing an rogue mul or exposed magicker. There won't be very many places where you can sit and relax.
• Years of playing dumbass ranger/fighter #10202 made me wonder if staff are even watching. Well,just play a thief and you'll realize they are watching and they each have very strong opinion on how a thief skills should or should not be used/RPed.
• It is an antagonist role with very little support and very little thanks. People hate their virtual shit stolen. insta-gib a PC? Sure why not, but steal someone's virtual thong and they will try to cut you ICly and OOCly. Even if they are supposed to be immensely rich. Which will ultimately lead to more of the above.

I recommend playing an a active thief if you don't mind a very isolated thankless role. The game needs antagonists that are not just resorting to high magick attacks or murder to become notorious.  It gives people things to talk about, complain about and work against ICly and the only PC that needs to die at the end is probably you.

[X-D]

As far as hide is concerned, how hard would it be to put in something that lowers (for a time) the "level" the hide is at after performing an action? Not breaking it mind you, but just setting it at a more easily scannable level for a while? Actions other then look BTW, be that movement, peek, palm etc.

Scale it by what the action was, Palm -10% for 5 seconds movement -40% for 10 seconds (period of finding best hiding spot) peek -10% 5 seconds steal -25% 10 seconds...stackable for all.

[Miggy]

Yes, we are aware stealth has issues.

Personal opinion:

Wilderness stealth is more balanced than city stealth.  Major reason being something that hasn't been explicitly touched on here.  That said, both borked.

Stealth/scan bonuses could use a rework.

Scan power can't really be increased without putting in place some sort of scan vs stealth check memory, so you can't just spam scan.

Scan vs stealth could use at least one if not two intermediary steps.  Most beneficial would be a step where you can see there is a shadow, you can target them, but you cannot clearly look at them for desc/equip.  Less beneficial would be a step where you can see a shadow but not target them.

How about add some functionality to search? If you think wilderness sneaking is pretty balanced, give search a new feature where you can search the room (indoors only) for people instead of exits. Give it a nice long delay, plenty of time for sneaky sorts to vacate the area. Now they have a choice, get revealed or leave. It doesn't invalidate stealth entirely, just gives it a very limited way to counteract it that's useful in certain contexts only.

Suggested something like this here: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55715.0.html

Please note that it includes not being able to even see the persons true sdesc/mdesc unless they fail at getting out of there, and seems like what I would do in RL if I thought I was being stalked or stolen from. Of course you are going to keep looking to see if you can find who's doing it. No one is going to just say oh I just got stolen from and I think someone is stalking me, but meh, I can't see them so I'll just sit here and finish my ale....

I think it would be great if the search command could be used for this instead of creating a new 'reveal' command.

[triste]

Yes, we are aware stealth has issues.

Personal opinion:

Wilderness stealth is more balanced than city stealth.  Major reason being something that hasn't been explicitly touched on here.  That said, both borked.

Stealth/scan bonuses could use a rework.

Scan power can't really be increased without putting in place some sort of scan vs stealth check memory, so you can't just spam scan.

Scan vs stealth could use at least one if not two intermediary steps.  Most beneficial would be a step where you can see there is a shadow, you can target them, but you cannot clearly look at them for desc/equip.  Less beneficial would be a step where you can see a shadow but not target them.

How about add some functionality to search? If you think wilderness sneaking is pretty balanced, give search a new feature where you can search the room (indoors only) for people instead of exits. Give it a nice long delay, plenty of time for sneaky sorts to vacate the area. Now they have a choice, get revealed or leave. It doesn't invalidate stealth entirely, just gives it a very limited way to counteract it that's useful in certain contexts only.

Suggested something like this here: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55715.0.html

Please note that it includes not being able to even see the persons true sdesc/mdesc unless they fail at getting out of there, and seems like what I would do in RL if I thought I was being stalked or stolen from. Of course you are going to keep looking to see if you can find who's doing it. No one is going to just say oh I just got stolen from and I think someone is stalking me, but meh, I can't see them so I'll just sit here and finish my ale....

I think it would be great if the search command could be used for this instead of creating a new 'reveal' command.

+1

I backed up the `reveal` command in that thread Miggy linked, and I've also always been in favor of applying more usefulness to `search` as Narf and others have mentioned. In my years of playing this game on and off I have not figured out how to successfully use the search command once [and I've tried in spooky ruins, nearly every room of the sewers, interesting looking spots outdoors, no luck]. Nice two birds with one stone type idea you both have here.

[SodaDogARM]

The most important idea in this thread is the mention of the effect this trend is having on the more public city role-play aspects of the game, and the effects that has on accessibility and optics.

City taverns are far emptier than they were a year ago, people are hiding away in their respective clan spaces or avoiding cities entirely, and roleplay is occurring behind closed doors more often. Imagine what 40-50 players online but not one to be found looks like for a new player entering what is assumed to be the main hub of activity for the first time. If you have walked the city recently you've likely experienced this exact occurrence. I know if that were the case when I joined I'd be supremely turned off.

Stealth is what it is, but thievery needs to be addressed ASAP for the overall health of the game. It's having far more negative effects than people just losing their items, the latter of which I personally couldn't care less about. Never aired a single grievance publicly in my time playing, but this is getting out of hand and it's a shame.

[Dresan]

I guess if we remove steal people will come to taverns. The sap and backstab could potentially skills cause people to die or lose their stuff so many that should go.... just so people come out to RP.  Blowguns and poisons that can probably lead people to hide in their fortresses too so that should go so people feel comfortable about sitting in taverns.   

How about if we remove the clan compounds safe hangout areas so that being around tavern with dozen's of people with high watch is more safe then just hiding behind closed doors?

Additionally maybe we should begin looking at limited the way much much more to just  messages at 25 stun points each with much slower recover  so that people aren't resorting to having full conversation over the way and are actually forced to meet somewhere....like perhaps a tavern.

I am okay with having a very limited space safe option in banks that would cost 500 coins to keep per month , just for those one or two items people cannot afford to lose for some odd reason if that will help. Your virtual stuff should not be sacred in this game, waking up naked should be a more common occurrence not a unique event.    

[SodaDogARM]

Removing or hampering a bunch of content over a single issue doesn't seem like a logical conclusion over just attempting to fix the issue. Again, the lack of publicly accessible drop-in role-play wasn't so much an issue say a year ago.

I don't know anything about code but something along the lines of making thievery harder without revealing your identity, or an action cooldown like backstab or sap has after the fact, so a failed attempt must lead in an escape. Maybe a break of hide or something. I'm not sure, much more code-smart people than myself have to be able to come up with something though.

[Dresan]

The problem with this logic is that as long as one item from your pack can disappear, people's behavior won't change.

There are characters who find themselves at death's door, and refuse to strip and hand over their shit to raiders despite the fact they are facing death. Its nuts.

You can limit steal all you want, but people will still continue to hide in fortresses as long as there is even one item they could lose. The fortresses need to go away. RPing over the way needs to be limited. 

One top of this sort of action is a slippery slope for the game, people asking for certain things to nerfed so they can feel 'safe' to RP.  This is a game with permadeath. You aren't supposed to win. Losing stuff from your pack should be the least of people's worries. There is cheap shit sold in the shops....buy that instead of the bejeweled maces of doom.

[SodaDogARM]

No one is talking about forcing a behavioral change. Being stolen from many times by thieves who hemote and emote and the like, I never felt it was malicious from that player OOC.

What should change is the risk involved and potential consequences, so people feel safer or at least like they have a chance to deliver some justice upon the act. To remove "fortresses" such as GMH compounds or noble estates would be removing a ton of character and role-play opportunity from the game. The appeal of public roleplay is the variety of people and faces, but no one should be forced to interact in such a manner. Why have one when you can have both?

Seems silly to cut content rather than fix it.

[Dresan]

The consequences are pretty severe when you are caught. An exposed thief needs to live their life like a rogue magicker probably worse.

If someone loses a fancy dagger of doom, they can always buy another that is just as functional for 30 sid. But materialism is definitely something people cannot disregard in their RP it seems. 

My point is you mentioned thievery as a cause for people hiding in compounds and leaving areas empty, we'll i disagree that nerfing stealth or theft will address this problem at all.