Soldier and laborer scan ought to be switched

[worldofsand]

Master scan is given to the mixed class of each category: miscreant, stalker and laborer. I wonder if it wouldn't be better if the master scan of the city category was moved to soldier. For one thing, it makes a hell of a lot more sense thematically that soldiers are good at spotting criminals and threats as opposed to laborers who have no reason whatsoever to be top notch at scanning. Secondly, the soldier class currently sits deep in the shadow of fighter which is better at basically everything except for a few half-assed crafting skills. While this would be a nerf to the laborer class, I doubt anyone's going to care very much. Do people even play that class? Could just let them keep master scan and let four classes have it.

When I think about playing the role of a soldier in the AoD, I find it very hard to justify taking the actual soldier class. They don't even get advanced scan despite the fact that the other two light combat classes do! As a matter of fact, the only class of the city category that gets scan at all is the laborer, which is really weird when you think about it. On that note, I think the soldier should also get advanced ride. The class really needs a helping hand.

[Dresan]

They get advanced watch and listen, which is really the skills you want when dealing with PCs.

Master scan even with high elven wisdom is not really worth fighting for at the moment.

Frankly speaking, any bonuses perception based skills get from wisdom feels broken or never existed to begin with,which is more in line with 'help wisdom'.

[worldofsand]

There may be imbalances when it comes to scan and master hide, but it still has its uses since most classes only get advanced hide, and it seems like the kind of skill that really fits the soldier class. Advanced watch is hardly any consolation, that's a very low-value skill in terms of class budget. Half the classes and 0-karma subclasses get advanced watch. What I want is something that actually makes me consider picking soldier over fighter or scout when I want to play in the AoD. Master scan is the very thing that would make me do that. It fits the bill for a class that's actually tailormade for law enforcement, wouldn't you say?

[mansa]

Perhaps "Soldier" should be renamed to a better class name, rather than a job description.

I agree that it should get Scan at low ADVANCED, like Infiltrator and Scout on the same category.

[BadSkeelz]

Perhaps "Soldier" should be renamed to a better class name, rather than a job description.

I agree that it should get Scan at low ADVANCED, like Infiltrator and Scout on the same category.

Soldier should be renamed "Sellsword" since it's essentially a supercharged Mercenary subguild. As far as actual serving in the soldier role, it's fairly mediocre.

[worldofsand]

I agree that it should get Scan at low ADVANCED, like Infiltrator and Scout on the same category.

I think we already have enough wishy-washy midlevel skills littered across the classes. Low advanced scan is of no use whatsoever. Soldier needs something that says "play me instead of fighter!"

For instance, infiltrator gets master backstab and scout gets master archery, two of the most powerful skills in the game. Soldier doesn't need yet more skills at advanced.

[th3kaiser]

Soldier already gets master archery.

Haven't used them, but they do also get master hack and riposte. Which I assume should be useful?

[worldofsand]

Archery is of minimal use in city peacekeeping which is 95% of what the soldier role is about. It's not like we have wars.

Hack is a worthless skill. Riposte can be okay but it's a 1v1 combat thing, again not something that really does anything for the soldier role.

And fighter gets all of that anyway.

I'm missing a class that actually lends itself to the AoD Private/Corporal concept, and giving master scan to soldier would accomplish that really well. Why does laborer have it? What sense does that even make? Feels like it's only there because the other two mixed classes have it as well, but they're stealthy action classes so it makes sense for them. The way I see it, the only reason laborer got master scan was so it lined up neatly on the class grid.

It's just weird to me when several other classes are more suited to the actual role of an AoD soldier than the one called soldier. It doesn't even get ride. Why wouldn't I play a scout or fighter instead, or raider, or even miscreant in case I want to be anti-crime? What does the soldier class have that makes it appealing?

[th3kaiser]

I would....be alright with adding advanced scan perhaps. But if you do that, then you need to yank away some of their other powerful skills.

Let's be honest, anything but master scan these days is pretty well worthless. Sneaks are probably too strong in the current meta. Perhaps we take a look at that instead of this?

[Dresan]

I think a better solution would be to break scan into wilderness and city tags.

Like with hunt/sneak/hide.

With solider either getting city or perhaps both city/wilderness version along with hunt to reflect their training  and missions with both city and wilderness environments.

I think it will help further make classes unique and more differentiate from the strengths and weaknesses. 

[worldofsand]

I would....be alright with adding advanced scan perhaps. But if you do that, then you need to yank away some of their other powerful skills.

Let's be honest, anything but master scan these days is pretty well worthless. Sneaks are probably too strong in the current meta. Perhaps we take a look at that instead of this?

That's a little contradictory. You hesitantly agree to giving the class advanced scan and then point out that it's worthless. Which I agree with, by the way.

I'm not sure what "other powerful skills" the soldier even has, but I'd happily take a drop from master hack/riposte to advanced in exchange for master scan. But for advanced? That has no use whatsoever. Might as well not do it, then. You cannot spot a miscreant with advanced scan.

The stealth meta is definitely worth talking about but maybe not here.

I think a better solution would be to break scan into wilderness and city tags.

Like with hunt/sneak/hide.

The helpfile for scan says it has a city and wilderness version. It just doesn't seem to actually be the case.

[Cabooze]

The stealth meta is definitely worth talking about but maybe not here.

The problem should probably be addressed at some point. Sneak/scan need re-balancing, or at least classes need another look over and have some adjustments put in place. If there's no discussion, there's no fixing.

[worldofsand]

One might even suggest that giving master scan to the class that shares a name with the role that enforces the law of Allanak could be one small step toward addressing the stealth meta 

[th3kaiser]

I'm a contradictory type of person! But scan opens up access to seeing sneaky folks which they presently have no ability to find. That's powerful.

Also, bash, disarm, subdue, mastery slings, archery, even kick has a place if you use it right. Those are all undeniably strong skills when used appropriately that most folks with high scan do not have access to. (barring the ranged skills)

And no, I'd disagree that giving a intermediate combat class max scan is not the way to go about balancing things. Soldiers aren't cops. If master scan is all you want, you have other options for classes.

[Cabooze]

If master scan is all you want, you have other options for classes.

But those other options don't always make the most sense for being an effective soldier-type character. I'd need to look at the skill-sheets if I wanted to form a more solid argument, here.

[th3kaiser]

Yeah, I think that's my main point. Soldiers aren't built to sniff out sneakies. They're not cops. They're soldiers meant to be in the field fighting as a unified force. If we use the name to determine what they're good at, the lack of scan makes total sense.

Sorry, I just think that tossing on max scan into a class with that much actual combat potential is just a bad choice. I'd much prefer if we look at the sneaky meta that is leading to this desire rather than adding a bandage like this which'll unbalance things yet again.

[mansa]

Perhaps "Soldier" should be renamed to a better class name, rather than a job description.

I agree that it should get Scan at low ADVANCED, like Infiltrator and Scout on the same category.

Soldier should be renamed "Sellsword" since it's essentially a supercharged Mercenary subguild. As far as actual serving in the soldier role, it's fairly mediocre.

Sellsword is great!  I like it.

PETITION TO CHANGE SOLDIER NAME TO SELLSWORD

[Dresan]

I think a powerful hide brings a lot more to a game where etwoing dwarves roam the world.

However, if you don't prioritize agility, if you don't prioritize a class with master stealth, if you aren't playing an elf  and/or if you don't invest in gear  then perhaps your stealth(both hide and sneak) should not be as good as it currently is on some people.

Especially against a class with master scan who has prioritized wisdom.

At the same time scan should not be all or nothing, and some effort and very obvious searching (with before delay) should be done to see if that shadow you noticed out of the corner of your eye is a person or a rat when a hide check fails. Giving the person who is hiding a chance to react or run.

[worldofsand]

I'm a contradictory type of person! But scan opens up access to seeing sneaky folks which they presently have no ability to find. That's powerful.

Also, bash, disarm, subdue, mastery slings, archery, even kick has a place if you use it right. Those are all undeniably strong skills when used appropriately that most folks with high scan do not have access to. (barring the ranged skills)

I think the current "stealth meta" stems in large part from the very fact that a class like the soldier is powerless against stealth. That and of course the unbalanced code for stealth vs detection, but that's a different discussion. I'm not sure if this was always the way it was, but currently you seem to need your scan to be a full category above another character's hide skill in order to have a reasonable chance to spot them. Hence why advanced scan is largely useless.

And no, I'd disagree that giving a intermediate combat class max scan is not the way to go about balancing things. Soldiers aren't cops. If master scan is all you want, you have other options for classes.

I'm not sure I follow this logic. If you want to play a hunter, there are classes tailormade for that profession. If you want to play a thief, there's an overpowered class that's the best at everything criminal. If you want to play a mugger or raider, pick the classes that are perfect for this. You've dedicated crafter classes that are obvious meant for merchants. But if you want to play the guy who patrols Allanak catching thieves and stopping violence, which is one of the game's core roles around which the entire culture of the city revolves, you have to choose one of the two because there's no class that can really do both.

I'm not seeing the actual argument for why the soldier class shouldn't be allowed to have master scan. Is it about balance? What fresh havoc would one be able to wreak with a light-combat class that can actually spot criminals? With the old guilds, four out of six got master scan and it didn't seem to be an issue. Since soldier doesn't have stealth or master melee skills, I don't see how master scan is so powerful as to be out of the question.

Are soldiers not the closest thing in Zalanthas to cops? Master scan is not "all I want." I want master scan on the class that is designed for the one job that actually catches criminals. If your argument is that it somehow doesn't suit the soldier, why does it suit the laborer? There are three core roles that deal with stealth: the criminal, the hunter and the law enforcer. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that the three classes that are most closely aligned with those three roles should be the ones with master scan.

Right now, if I want to play a soldier of the Arm of the Dragon, what possible reason do I have for choosing the soldier class?

[th3kaiser]

I'm pretty sure we had a lot more than six classes and that most didn't get master scan. But we're allowed to disagree. I just think the fix here isn't in this one random class (all of the intermediate combat classes are underwhelming, btw absolutely all of them) but in addressing the larger concern that sneakies are TOO strong. Even with master scan you cannot see everyone. You just can't. Stealth is currently broken.

We agree that there's the same problem, I just don't agree with your fix. Good luck!

[worldofsand]

Obviously I meant the mundane classes. And I wasn't saying it's the fix, but I think it's a step in the right direction and I didn't want to start derailing into a debate about the stealth code. Go ahead and make a thread for that, because I certainly think it's something that should be discussed.

I just think it's really odd that if you want to play a thief-catcher, which is surely one of the main job descriptions of a soldier, you have to pick the thief class. Why would soldiers not be trained in scan? Doesn't it make sense that they would be? And I don't think renaming it sellsword solves anything at all. That's just lazily sweeping the issue under the rug. The fact still remains that there is no class suited for law enforcement. There are just combat classes and criminal classes and you pick which thing you care most about.

all of the intermediate combat classes are underwhelming, btw absolutely all of them

That's somewhat true, but I think the other two have some merits while soldier doesn't. There are definitely concepts I can think of where infiltrator or scout is the best suited class. I can't come up with any roles that call for the soldier class in its current state. Master scan would flip that right around and make it my favorite class for its namesake role. Not a dedicated killer, not some ultra stealth ninja that pretends not to be that. It would be to law enforcement what the stalker is to hunting and the miscreant is to crime.

[th3kaiser]

This is going to be my last one here! But I have to point out that the classes you're pointing to as being great aren't intermediate combat. They're all smack dab in the middle. Hence Laborer. Which already has max scan. What is the problem with taking that class? It's just a slightly toned down version of Soldier with that scan you want.

You're wanting to add max scan to a class that just shouldn't have it and ignoring the class that would work for you that already does.

[worldofsand]

This is going to be my last one here! But I have to point out that the classes you're pointing to as being great aren't intermediate combat. They're all smack dab in the middle.

By intermediate combat classes, did you not mean soldier, scout and infiltrator? These are the light combat classes. Infiltrator and scout are both very well-suited for the kinds of concepts that call for those classes. Infiltrator with its master backstab, high advanced stealth, advanced poisoning and pick, it's the assassin of old. Scouts have master archery and a skillset that's actually equipped to use it, unlike soldier which doesn't even get ride beyond the innate points that every character can learn. While soldiers do get master archery, what cause do you have to use it in the actual role of an AoD soldier when nearly all your life is spent inside the walls?

Hence Laborer. Which already has max scan. What is the problem with taking that class? It's just a slightly toned down version of Soldier with that scan you want.

It's laborer. It's 75% crafting. I don't want to pick the laborer class to play a soldier. I don't want the class design to be such that when I consider which class might best suit the concept of your bog-standard "I patrol the streets and keep the peace" soldier, I'm being told that laborer is the class I should choose. Aside from the fact that the class is hilariously awful, I don't see how it even makes sense to say that. I'm asking for a class that's actually well-suited for law enforcement and you're telling me "why not pick laborer?" like you're astonished that I don't think that's completely natural.

You're wanting to add max scan to a class that just shouldn't have it and ignoring the class that would work for you that already does.

Why exactly is it that it "shouldn't have it"? Is there some rule I'm not aware of where everyone just knows which class should have what? Is it the same rule that says miscreants should master half the skills in the game, and fighter should get everything soldier gets except better? I'm legitimately perplexed at your insistence that it's somehow against the nature of the game for soldier to have master scan. Is it a balance concern? I really don't see how soldier becomes too powerful with scan. We have two classes with master poisoning and stealth that get master scan.

These are the main issues at play here:

1) Scan below master might as well not exist, and the two most played classes are the ones with master hide.

2) There's no class that serves as the opposition to criminals, despite there being an entire clan devoted in large part to that. There are several classes devoted to crime but no class devoted to countering it. There's one named for the profession that is meant to counter crime, but it doesn't have anything that helps do it.

3) The soldier class is pretty bad and doesn't really fit into any kind of niche.

To me, all three of those issues can be alleviated, if not necessarily fixed outright, by giving master scan to soldiers where it makes sense instead of laborer where it makes none. Or just let laborer keep it. I'm pretty sure nobody plays that class. It's even more useless than soldier.

[th3kaiser]

Yeah, I don't care enough. Have fun!

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I think we're just conflating the term "soldier" with "guard", which are kind of interchangeable, but it doesn't help that we have many NPC soldiers in the cities with high scan abilities.

Also, I know that the laborer class is played.  I always figured the high perception abilities were to help them spot danger out while they were grebbing.

A bit off topic, wondering if I should make a new thread, but what if we just ditched classes entirely and let people select what skills they want as journeyman, advanced, and master with some kind of point system?

[X-D]

So far I have tried 3 main classes. Scout, Stalker and Soldier. Now I was going to say what I think of them but I think I will leave it with..."Momma said if you have nothing nice to say..."

Soldier does not need scan, with the current lopsidedness between stealth and scan I agree with the people who have said this is not worth fighting over.

And I join Mansa's petition...change the name to sellsword.

[Dresan]

So far I have tried 3 main classes. Scout, Stalker and Soldier. Now I was going to say what I think of them but I think I will leave it with..."Momma said if you have nothing nice to say..."

I would love to hear what you think of them, mostly because I feel the classes are still relatively new and overtime they'll still be fine tuned and improved, so if people don't give thoughts or ideas, nothing will change.

[Hauwke]

Stalker is great, it has everything it needs to be a powerful class for the wilderness. Does it take forever and a half to git gud in combat? Sure, but thats because its a middle class, it has a healthy mix of utility and combat. Really, just throw in a combat subclass for disarm etc and its golden if thats what you want.

[Lotion]

2) There's no class that serves as the opposition to poor criminals, despite there being an entire clan devoted in large part to that. There are several classes devoted to petty crime but no class devoted to countering it.

ftfy

+1 to Sellsword

[rinthrat]

You want to play a soldier in the AoD who is in the city at least 95% of the time? Play a city/criminal class and pick infiltrator. You get advanced scan, watch (underrated skill), sneak/hide and city hunt for following these criminals around and checking what they're up to, peek to inconspiciously check for contraband, and ranged skills that are more useable than archery.

Don't get so hung up on the names of a class, or skills you probably won't use.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

No real kank (oops I meant beetle) in this race but this thread got me to use Tristes' guild picker (https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/) to compare laborer and soldier. They are practically identical!
Aside from some combat weapon styles and archery, and when stuff branches, there is very little difference between skills, and exactly the same abilities. Just thought it was interesting. So, that's it. Good day! 

[triste]

No real kank (oops I meant beetle) in this race but this thread got me to use Tristes' guild picker (https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/) to compare laborer and soldier. They are practically identical!
Aside from some combat weapon styles and archery, and when stuff branches, there is very little difference between skills, and exactly the same abilities. Just thought it was interesting. So, that's it. Good day! 

Both of them are also very similar to Adventurer. I just noticed this yesterday as well and feel like they could be differentiated a tiny tiny bit more.

[Brokkr]

There is one class that it customized for play in the AoD.  Its name is templar.

Playing a soldier in the AoD shouldn't be just about catching criminals.  That may be an aspect of it, but it isn't the aspect that is being a soldier (ie part of an army).  It is more the law enforcement aspect.  In any case, that wasn't how classes were designed at all.  In fact they were designed to NOT fit into a box like that, or be a perfect fit for roles.

There were designed around basically five axis.  Skill levels are determine by three axis and how far you are from those axes:  Combat, Survival, Merchantile.  This can be thought of as Deep skill levels in combat for Heavy combat, deep skill level in misc skills for Survival, deep skill level in crafting/merchanting for heavy merchantile.  Light Combat and Light Merchantile were meant to be broader skillsets with lower skill caps.

The other two axes are Criminal and Wilderness.  These don't determine skill levels at all (which still go off the other three axes), but rather add skillsets appropriate for those locations.  It would have been better if we had a skillset that City characters could use (thus 6 axes) but we really didn't.  So Fighter and Artisan get fudged around a little bit to give them some slight advantages, and we reuse the merchantile axis for the other three City classes (albeit without determining skill levels from it, which still come from class closeness to the merchantile axis).

So, absolutely not designed in a manner that soldier was "meant" to be for folks wanting a role customized to AoD/Garrison/whatever play.

When looking at all this, it is useful to remember that raider maxed "master" archery is better than scout maxed "master" archery, and likewise scout "advanced" hide is better than raider "advanced" hide.

[Dresan]

When looking at all this, it is useful to remember that raider maxed "master" archery is better than scout maxed "master" archery, and likewise scout "advanced" hide is better than raider "advanced" hide.

Woah that actually makes a difference. Thanks.

[mansa]

There is one class that it customized for play in the AoD.  Its name is templar.

Playing a soldier in the AoD shouldn't be just about catching criminals.  That may be an aspect of it, but it isn't the aspect that is being a soldier (ie part of an army).  It is more the law enforcement aspect.  In any case, that wasn't how classes were designed at all.  In fact they were designed to NOT fit into a box like that, or be a perfect fit for roles.

There were designed around basically five axis.  Skill levels are determine by three axis and how far you are from those axes:  Combat, Survival, Merchantile.  This can be thought of as Deep skill levels in combat for Heavy combat, deep skill level in misc skills for Survival, deep skill level in crafting/merchanting for heavy merchantile.  Light Combat and Light Merchantile were meant to be broader skillsets with lower skill caps.

The other two axes are Criminal and Wilderness.  These don't determine skill levels at all (which still go off the other three axes), but rather add skillsets appropriate for those locations.  It would have been better if we had a skillset that City characters could use (thus 6 axes) but we really didn't.  So Fighter and Artisan get fudged around a little bit to give them some slight advantages, and we reuse the merchantile axis for the other three City classes (albeit without determining skill levels from it, which still come from class closeness to the merchantile axis).

So, absolutely not designed in a manner that soldier was "meant" to be for folks wanting a role customized to AoD/Garrison/whatever play.

When looking at all this, it is useful to remember that raider maxed "master" archery is better than scout maxed "master" archery, and likewise scout "advanced" hide is better than raider "advanced" hide.

How do you feel about scan at advanced and renaming the class to sellsword?

[Greve]

When looking at all this, it is useful to remember that raider maxed "master" archery is better than scout maxed "master" archery

Really? I would honestly have guessed it was the opposite, that scout gets a higher archery than raider to compensate for being worse at everything else combat-related. I had assumed that infiltrator likewise gets a higher backstab than enforcer. If this is not the case, the light combat classes are even worse than I thought. They really don't have a lot going for them. They get so few masteries, and the ones they get, their heavy counterpart is better at anyway?

[Brokkr]

They get a broader skillset.  Lots of people complain about raider not having skin.  Intentional.  Scout gets more combat that Stalker.  They get skin which Raider doesn't.  So...more combat than Stalker, less combat than Raider, and vice versa for survival skills.

So when you want a combat capable outsidy type person but you need skin because you are a secret magicker...

or you want to be the most combat capable but also want to start outside...

or you want to start with backstab and are willing to forgo a little bit of high end potential and hey you get to poison too...

or whatever.