Content and creation

[Shabago]

Perhaps it's time to start a new thread regarding new additions. Be it new clan, new content to existing clan, etc? I'll read it. I can't guarantee everything put forth will come to pass, (world fit, theme fit, power balances) but hearing from you all regarding desired XYZ certainly won't hurt. I'm aware like-threads have been in play before, but as we all know - time changes opinion/want.

For the love of baby Tek, don't attack others for their ideas please. Civil debate/input and constructive feedback are a different matter.

Have at it!

ETA

** Re-cap of ideas for ease of read to reply to in separate thread by myself/other staff.

- City Elf Tribe
- More Noble Houses open.
- Pclan reworking (in a round about way)
- Some sort of outfit/clothing QoL (code, but it was read/noted)
- Full class mages
- GMH hunting branches
- LARP structure
- Remove crimecode
- Code markers for criminals
- Slave roles
- New/more plants & materials to make cloth
- More grunt jobs.
- Power from death - sorc/mage
- More explorer content/animal dens. + Dye making ability. + Magicker and anti-magicker tools, charms, potions.
- Tuluk, in part/whole.
- Silt sea expansion/addition.
- Clan compounds/apartments overhaul.
- Underground content/tunnels/networks
- "Outside the Known" force.
- More smokes/smokables.
- Post char-gen sub guilds.

[triste]

PLAYABLE, OPEN AND STAFF SUPPORTED CITY ELF TRIBES!!
[refer to 200 message thread about this in discord yesterday. Staff might be working on it already in which case thank you!!]

[Riev]

With the closure of Tuluk, the Allanaki Mercenary Company has truly become just that. A military organization that isn't the Arm of the Dragon but otherwise is completely loyal to the city.

I would like if the T'zai Byn branched out a little more and attempted to become a little more independent. They hardly use their desert outpost anymore, and most of their contracts are to guard things.

Mercenaries, to me, should be willing to do anything for a little drinking coin, but there are far more 'defensive' contract than there are 'aggressive' ones.

What if there was more content surrounding tribal/non-city-based malcontents that weren't hidden behind Red Storm rules. NPC tribes whose purpose was to be a nuisance, that the Byn could occasionally sortie for? Spiders are old hat, and gith tend to be far mor organized than a rag-tag bunch of misfits.

[JustAnotherGuy]

With the closure of Tuluk, the Allanaki Mercenary Company has truly become just that. A military organization that isn't the Arm of the Dragon but otherwise is completely loyal to the city.

I would like if the T'zai Byn branched out a little more and attempted to become a little more independent. They hardly use their desert outpost anymore, and most of their contracts are to guard things.

Mercenaries, to me, should be willing to do anything for a little drinking coin, but there are far more 'defensive' contract than there are 'aggressive' ones.

What if there was more content surrounding tribal/non-city-based malcontents that weren't hidden behind Red Storm rules. NPC tribes whose purpose was to be a nuisance, that the Byn could occasionally sortie for? Spiders are old hat, and gith tend to be far mor organized than a rag-tag bunch of misfits.

I've always been of the mindset that the Byn should move to Luir's, and base out of it as a "Neutral" location.

[mansa]

One of my next characters is going to be an city elf in Morins.

I plan on starting my own city elf tribe there, and build an apartment complex.  My idea is to have a city elf tribe that focuses on woodworking.  We might even make wagons.

This should have a lot of conflict with the other merchant houses that focus on wood items, Kurac and Kadius.  It will be fun.


Eventually, when my tribe is successful and we have a sorta base, I'm going to try and buy nobility from the newly opened Tuluk and be the first City Elf Nobles there.  We'll be the best woodworking artist.

[Narf]

One of my next characters is going to be an city elf in Morins.

I plan on starting my own city elf tribe there, and build an apartment complex.  My idea is to have a city elf tribe that focuses on woodworking.  We might even make wagons.

This should have a lot of conflict with the other merchant houses that focus on wood items, Kurac and Kadius.  It will be fun.


Eventually, when my tribe is successful and we have a sorta base, I'm going to try and buy nobility from the newly opened Tuluk and be the first City Elf Nobles there.  We'll be the best woodworking artist.

Piggybacking off this, staff wouldn't need to create a city elf tribe if they loosened up the rules on player-created trbies. The biggest killer for any player created tribe is that they can't (or almost can't) get new members applying in. This gives all player created tribes a ticking clock as characters either die off or leave for OOC reasons which inevitably ends the tribe.

I think this restriction needs to be loosened up. Maybe put a time on it that, if they make it past so many RL months they can begin accepting members from created character populations.

[number13]

~ how to make a c-elf tribe, in three easy steps ~

Step one: Invent a new tribe. Not as a family roll call, but just pop into game and decide, "Hey, I'm going to pretend that I'm a Foo'kin Azole, so it seems like I'm part of a tribe."

Step two: Recruit other lonefoots into your scheme.

Step three: Recruit enough, and congrats, you're a "tribe". Without all the baggage of not being able to backstab your tribe mates.

[deskoft]

I've been thinking, what if we limit House public noble representatives to 1 per House and use the 8-9 players we had to open each of the 9 Houses? It would certainly create a dynamic political scene where you have a House that does nearly everything.

[Riev]

I've been thinking, what if we limit House public noble representatives to 1 per House and use the 8-9 players we had to open each of the 9 Houses? It would certainly create a dynamic political scene where you have a House that does nearly everything.

This has been suggested a lot. Rather than consolidating, spreading it out. One Noble per clan, but a choice of clans, versus 3 nobles per clan and you can choose only my favorites.

I imagine nine open houses all vying for attention from staff would be a lot to handle.

[9001]

I've been thinking, what if we limit House public noble representatives to 1 per House and use the 8-9 players we had to open each of the 9 Houses? It would certainly create a dynamic political scene where you have a House that does nearly everything.

While I like the idea of having more Houses open, I think we need more players for that, and I think that having more than one noble in each open House is kind of essential for the political landscape. The competing motivations of nobles inside the same House provides a lot of opportunities for plots and schemes that involve other players outside (and in) that House.

[triste]

Piggybacking off this, staff wouldn't need to create a city elf tribe if they loosened up the rules on player-created trbies. The biggest killer for any player created tribe is that they can't (or almost can't) get new members applying in. This gives all player created tribes a ticking clock as characters either die off or leave for OOC reasons which inevitably ends the tribe.

Yep, we all spent a ton of time debating this yesterday in Discord but you sum it up well here Narf.

WRT the insistence that it's easy to create a player made C-Elf tribe, one need only look at the results and the statistics. Spoiler: numbers indicate this is not an easy or common occurrence at all; most players have never interacted with a player made C-Elf tribe and never will. Spoiler: this is because a combination of docs and coded constraints make this, in fact, nearly impossible. Narf describes it briefly and well here.

Even if the documentation were altered to support more recruiting, there is just the question of why C-Elf is a special case somehow not deserving of an IG tribe. Every single argument about this can be easily refuted:
- Argument 1: City Elf tribes are broken because it gives them a place to hide after they commit crime. Argument falls apart when you realize this also applies to The Guild.
- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting. Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.
- Argument 3: A codified tribe is not needed for C-Elves (Mansa's an N13's point) -- Excellently refuted by Narf here, also several other players poked holes in this well yesterday such as RievSkeelz. The docs about "not recruiting outsiders" essentially kills most player made C-Elf tribes out the gate, in fact, by definition any player made C-Elf tribe would be in violation of the docs as they are today. I laughed at Mansa's example because it has two examples of breaking city elf documentation. And indeed anytime someone says "Make a C-Elf tribe that recruits," they are advocating for violating the docs (or having a snowflake unicorn concept).
- Argument 4: Staff do not want or do not have time to support this. This is the only constraint, staff were awesome and gave us an idea of just how much time they _do_ put in, for which we are thankful! This is the only "legitimate" argument at the table, Arguments 1-3 are disqualified due to logical fallacies therein.

So yeah, per my original brief post, there is a lot of contention around this, but it IS something Staff has spent development time on, and it hasn't been stated as being off the table.

[rinthrat]

I would like to see real city-elf tribes. Then again, I wouldn't, because I prefer in-game recruitment over just apping in. In game recruitment ensures that the PC is at least a halfway decent fit.

Desert elf tribes can 'adopt' and take in new members, so I don't see why city elf tribes would be any different.

[mansa]

Piggybacking off this, staff wouldn't need to create a city elf tribe if they loosened up the rules on player-created trbies. The biggest killer for any player created tribe is that they can't (or almost can't) get new members applying in. This gives all player created tribes a ticking clock as characters either die off or leave for OOC reasons which inevitably ends the tribe.

Yep, we all spent a ton of time debating this yesterday in Discord but you sum it up well here Narf.

WRT the insistence that it's easy to create a player made C-Elf tribe, one need only look at the results and the statistics. Spoiler: numbers indicate this is not an easy or common occurrence at all; most players have never interacted with a player made C-Elf tribe and never will. Spoiler: this is because a combination of docs and coded constraints make this, in fact, nearly impossible. Narf describes it briefly and well here.

Even if the documentation were altered to support more recruiting, there is just the question of why C-Elf is a special case somehow not deserving of an IG tribe. Every single argument about this can be easily refuted:
- Argument 1: City Elf tribes are broken because it gives them a place to hide after they commit crime. Argument falls apart when you realize this also applies to The Guild.
- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting. Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.
- Argument 3: A codified tribe is not needed for C-Elves (Mansa's an N13's point) -- Excellently refuted by Narf here, also several other players poked holes in this well yesterday such as RievSkeelz. The docs about "not recruiting outsiders" essentially kills most player made C-Elf tribes out the gate, in fact, by definition any player made C-Elf tribe would be in violation of the docs as they are today. I laughed at Mansa's example because it has two examples of breaking city elf documentation. And indeed anytime someone says "Make a C-Elf tribe that recruits," they are advocating for violating the docs (or having a snowflake unicorn concept).
- Argument 4: Staff do not want or do not have time to support this. This is the only constraint, staff were awesome and gave us an idea of just how much time they _do_ put in, for which we are thankful! This is the only "legitimate" argument at the table, Arguments 1-3 are disqualified due to logical fallacies therein.

So yeah, per my original brief post, there is a lot of contention around this, but it IS something Staff has spent development time on, and it hasn't been stated as being off the table.

There is a whole section in city elf roleplay about tests of loyalty, and bringing people to be companions and earning trust.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay

Elven Tests of Loyalty:
Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust. Elves will go to great lengths to contrive and execute these tests, even to the point of putting their own lives at risk. Before an elf takes it upon themself to test everyone in sight, it should be kept in mind that an elf would only really go to the trouble of testing someone if they are going to be acting as a companion. A companion is someone that an elf may gain an advantage from being with. For example: you are a tribeless city elf who was born and raised in the labyrinth of Allanak, and it is far safer to run with a friend. Because they are already provided with companions in the form of family, tribal elves and those with a small grouping that is their family will find less reason to make companions out of outsiders. Tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not.

Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone.

I don't think that an elf who recruits someone who has 'passed the loyalty tests', is breaking the intended roleplay documents.

[LindseyBalboa]

C-Elf tribe! But also --

outfits.

An outfit command would be amazing. Remove everything in the outfit with one command after setting it up. Put on an outfit with the command as well, from a container or the room. Changing clothes into armor and back takes forever, which is why with most characters I've always just worn armor all the time instead of spending money on things they might like.

That might be more quality of life, but I thought it fit into the creation part of this thread. If not, my apologies.

[number13]

- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting. Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.

The dedicated raider tribes are no longer playable. Arguably the most successful raider tribe (the Red Fangs) was completely slaughtered, I think for OOC reasons as much as IC reasons.

Nobody wants to see a c-elf tribe open more than me, and you won't find many players on the server who have done more in-game to try to make it happen. That said, there's a fundamental problem with "criminal" tribes that has to be solved. My solution is the 'pseudo-tribe'. They pretend to be a tribe, they recruit lonefoots, and they do crime stuff. But they're not really a tribe, and it would be justifiable RP for an elf to betray the organization. The best thing about this you don't require staff's permission to start a pseudo-tribe. It's just a street gang, so just do it.

If you don't think that a psuedo-tribe can have a big impact or last a good long while -- find out IC. The short answer is, you're wrong.

As an alternative solution, allow elves in the Guild. I don't know how to modify the kayfabe to make it happen, but from a playability perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

[triste]

- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting. Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.

The dedicated raider tribes are no longer playable. Arguably the most successful raider tribe (the Red Fangs) was completely slaughtered, I think for OOC reasons as much as IC reasons.

Nobody wants to see a c-elf tribe open more than me, and you won't find many players on the server who have done more in-game to try to make it happen. That said, there's a fundamental problem with "criminal" tribes that has to be solved. My solution is the 'pseudo-tribe'. They pretend to be a tribe, they recruit lonefoots, and they do crime stuff. But they're not really a tribe, and it would be justifiable RP for an elf to betray the organization. The best thing about this you don't require staff's permission to start a pseudo-tribe. It's just a street gang, so just do it.

If you don't think that a psuedo-tribe can have a big impact or last a good long while -- find out IC. The short answer is, you're wrong.

As an alternative solution, allow elves in the Guild. I don't know how to modify the kayfabe to make it happen, but from a playability perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

Just the fact that we're praising "psuedo" [sic] anything here proves my point that achieving what is set out in the documents is very difficult. And that, as many people have identified, is a problem.

Yes, I am aware of the documentation mansa linked, but the reality of how it plays out is almost always as Narf describes. I think I've seen an elf adopted into a tribe once, and many more than that fail. This isn't the fault of the players -- they were following those docs, which indicate tedium and test after test. The result -- tribes dying out, etc. The result -- well the result that is PLAIN and in front of everyone's face right now -- absolutely 0 playable C-Elf tribes and one "psuedo-tribe" [sic].

And both of you are continuing to dodge the crux of the argument here which several other players are now excited and exclaiming (!) about: Why not have staff supported C-Elf tribes?

[why not both girl dot jif]

It's much easier to argue for just having a straight forward solution, a solution we had in the past, and a solution [multiple] human and [multiple] d-elf tribes enjoy, but for some [still to this point unjustified] reason c-elfs do not have this same beneficial, fun scenario of an in game tribe. For some [still to this point unjustified] reason, c-elfs cannot enjoy things like tribal docs, tribal crafts, etc. Sure. Maybe by definition we do not need a C-Elf tribes, but many players see the obvious benefits to having one in game and want it.

If you want to enumerate the "Pros and Cons" of not having a staff supported C-Elf tribe, I will gladly enumerate why it's beneficial to have them, and this itemization will speak for itself.

[triste]

Pros to having a City Elf tribe with staff/supported support like any other tribe:
- This option in no way precludes anyone from starting a player made tribe, indeed, could be the result of a player made tribe given staff support. Therefore this is in net, a feature addition and not a subtraction in any form [True any clan]
- This fills a niche currently completely unoccupied since we have no open C-Elf tribes [UNIQUE to this clan]
- This would be a good opportunity for new players as C-Elves are 0 karma, and indeed in the past C-Elf tribes are often great introductions to black market roleplay [UNIQUE to this clan]
- Opens up tribe locked craft, to which C-Elves have very limited access due to hiring policies of other clans [UNIQUE to this clan, False for player-made psuedo-tribes as proposed]
- Opens up rich, living documentation, lexicon. Documentation is beneficial as it allows player character contributions to endure for generations [True of any clan, False for player-made psuedo-tribes as proposed]
- Fully conforms to the docs, and makes the docs more real for players. The key strength of an elf in this setting is their tribe, and adding a supported C-Elf tribe would grant a more enriching experience, in effect fixing what is documented but broken an inaccessible IG [UNIQUE to this clan/role]


Cons:
- Staff resources / time spent to develop [True any clan]
- Potential of development effort flopping if clan is not well populated [True any clan]
- Possible metagaming, AKA hiding from crimes [True any clan]
- Players might not get to seed the initial idea [True any clan]


So here we see several unique benefits to adding a C-Elf tribe; all of the cons listed are true of any clan. No one has identified anything uniquely bad about this idea. Therefore, in net it's a boon.

[mansa]

There is a process set up that players can go through to get their own clams in game:

Stage 1 - Create a Request

(Must be selling a good or service.
Must be relying on/using PCs as well as NPCs to sell to
Need to let us know intending to progress to next level, so we can keep an eye on it

Contact leaders in game if available)

Do this for 1 year in-game, or approximately 45 RL days, then onto...

Stage 2 - "Playerspace Rented"

(Get a warehouse type room, with a key)

Do this for 2 years in game, or approximately 90 RL days after getting to stage 2, then onto...


Stage 3 - "NPCs owned"

(Get an NPC guard / hawker / shopkeep)

Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 3, then onto...


Stage 4 - "Clam setup"

(Get a clam tag, IC board, start getting a compound, custom crafts under clam name.)

Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 4... then onto


Stage 5 - "Clam Structure Implemented"

(Get a clam forum on the GDB, published clam documents, help files on website, etc)

[triste]

There is a process set up that players can go through to get their own clams in game:

Stage 1 - Create a Request

(Must be selling a good or service.
Must be relying on/using PCs as well as NPCs to sell to
Need to let us know intending to progress to next level, so we can keep an eye on it

Contact leaders in game if available)

Do this for 1 year in-game, or approximately 45 RL days, then onto...

Stage 2 - "Playerspace Rented"

(Get a warehouse type room, with a key)

Do this for 2 years in game, or approximately 90 RL days after getting to stage 2, then onto...


Stage 3 - "NPCs owned"

(Get an NPC guard / hawker / shopkeep)

Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 3, then onto...


Stage 4 - "Clam setup"

(Get a clam tag, IC board, start getting a compound, custom crafts under clam name.)

Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 4... then onto


Stage 5 - "Clam Structure Implemented"

(Get a clam forum on the GDB, published clam documents, help files on website, etc)

Again:

I already know all of this. Many of us knows this.

Yes no one has achieved this for C-Elves for years for reasons multiple posters here have identified. Please read their comments.

And finally, again:

Nothing about what I am proposing precludes or limits what you are. Anyone is feel free to take this script and try, good luck and thanks for your efforts. When you succeed, you will be rewarded with what I am asking for.

Or we can stop waiting multiple real life years for this Elven Neo Chosen One and fix what has been broken and left unaddressed more directly.

[th3kaiser]

Hey, can you guys make a new celf thread if that's all this is going to be? It seems like there's enough posts for that! I love the ideas, I'm just afraid everyone else's stuff not about this main argument is going to get lost.

[triste]

It's kind of a crazy thread -- We have two conversations going right now, and by design more are going to be added. If anything the C-Elf conversation started first and the other conversation interrupted it, but I am cool with that because that is kind of... the nature of this thread so far!

[triste]

Besides, I am pretty sure the C-Elf conversation is over: What I want [and other people want] does not preclude what the critics want, so literally we can all have what we want. Debate over.

Thanks Staff for setting up this thread.

[mansa]

One of my next characters I want to apply for is going to be a special application for a humanoid sewer rat.
I'm going to ask to have some sort of ability to see in the dark, and to be able to climb, but also be unable to wear pants because of the rat tail.

I'm going to create a nest area in the deep tunnels of Allanak, and scare the shit out of Jal employees.  I'll creep around down there, and eventually pop up to the surface dwellers and sell them the rare goods only the rat people can give them.

Also, I think I would play that I hate humans but like elves.


I think that would be something cool to try.

[triste]

One of my next characters I want to apply for is going to be a special application for a humanoid sewer rat.
I'm going to ask to have some sort of ability to see in the dark, and to be able to climb, but also be unable to wear pants because of the rat tail.

I'm going to create a nest area in the deep tunnels of Allanak, and scare the shit out of Jal employees.  I'll creep around down there, and eventually pop up to the surface dwellers and sell them the rare goods only the rat people can give them.

Also, I think I would play that I hate humans but like elves.


I think that would be something cool to try.

You've talked about this rat person idea for about a year. If you repeatedly and publicly talk about an idea, are you allowed to play it?

If you aren't allowed to play it because you keep talking about it, is someone ever going to steal this idea? Please, someone do, please make mansa's dreams come true!

[BadSkeelz]

Removed. Attempt something productive to contribute.