Content and creation

[Gentleboy]

I want a new race.

[Caverin]

RE SHABAGO'S POST ON REPLY THREAD: I don't get this.  We introduce a bigger variety of items and commodities, and the main concern is,   that = more money = more tilted economy?

It's not new items and commodities that are the problem, then, it's the base mechanics of the economy, down to the core, which is the problem.  It sounds like the problem we are having here is that there's just too much obsidian floating around then, right? There's only two ways to fix this:

1) Reducing the amount of coin which can potentially be generated by the economy. This may mean lowering prices NPCs buy goods for, limiting how much money NPCs can spend on anything, lowering pay for those clans with paymasters, lowering how much money nobles and templars and GMH blood members get to throw around, or simply making said resources that can bring in money harder to acquire.  It should not, however, mean discouraging more varieties of items.

2) Increasing the number of things which obsidian can be used for. In essence, what makes coin useful is that it can be used to purchase goods and services which are useful or otherwise desirable. We've got booze, overpriced food, mounts, skimmers, and a variety of equipment that can be purchased from vendors. I think in this respect, we just have to be more creative with more ways we can use obsidian.

Maybe we should have weapons degrade, as was suggested before. Needing to repair weapons means more resources are consumed, or new weapons may simply need to be bought entirely.

I also remember recently reading the thread on cures that should be degraded. Well honestly, that doesn't sound like a terrible idea, but everyone complains that the cures are a huge pain to make already. Okay then, simple solution:  let's make the cures degrade slowly as every other perishable item, but let's also have some vendors which can sell these ingredients. Now we have a need for an item, and more potential money being taken out of the economy.

Another thing we can do. Maybe we should be able to directly convert obsidian coins into obsidian commodities? Like, we could have a huge furnace/crucible, you dump a bunch of coins in, and you get obsidian chunks and shards?

RE SHABAGO'S POST ON REPLY THREAD: Are there appropriate money sinks? It kinda seems like there's a bunch of places where coins/wealth is generated but not as many where the value it represents is destroyed.

Moving this here as it was placed in the wrong thread. We'll try to keep replies here! Thank you!

[Dresan]

Though this is part of the economy I want to see more tempting money sinks in the game.

-I loved the addition of decay (food,poison,etc)
-I loved armor especially shield wear out over time
-I loved the addition of mount feed.
-I would love to see spice become more useful so its a worthwhile money sink.

I once suggested public baths but there are now bathing oils which is awesome. Attending a high class event? The fact you don't stink of sweat and sand should be checked at the door.

Once the economy update is done it'll be easier to provide feedback, as I strongly believe that outside investing in a class/sub-guild with crafting skills or performing in-game job the ability to generate coins should be a bit more toned down.

[Dresan]

Since C-elf has been confirmed and potential new crafts, as well as two-moons being around as well. Lower strength character definitely need more options for higher end gear that is light, especially after the balancing of material types.

Some possibilities:

-lighter shield that are reinforced by leather
-light city stealth gear that isn't heavy leather
-a light for option that for both city/wilderness stealth
-stronger crossbow options that don't weight 20stone and can be used by weaker PC
-Some more crossbow gear (there is so much more archery gear but crossbow stuff is still lacking)
-stronger stabbing weapons that can be thrown with appropriate bonus for both.

This doesn't need to be a c-elf clan crafting idea, but just throwing it out there for the various crafting clans.

And though this is a coding idea, I would love to be able to assess  any piece of equipment and being able to tell if it would help with a skill (maybe with value skill). Currently I feel description can be somewhat misleading or misinterpreted further promoting OOC information spread.

[lostinspace]

An equivalent to bury for use in the city, making dead-drops, stashes behind loose bricks in walls, etc.

[Brytta Léofa]

(Posted some of this already, but in the wrong thread.)

Idea: Mount Skills

Give mounts skills that can be trained, corresponding to the PC skills (ride/charge/trample).
- (Your basic store-bought mount has adequate ride skill but no combat skills.)
- This completely ends Fungible Mounts (which we've already been moving away from with persisted titles and with all the new varieties introduced a few years ago).
- Mount training becomes an exciting new career.
- Mount stealing becomes legendary.

Idea: Animal Husbandry (Ranchin')

Extend some of the mount and feed code to other domestic animals: chalton, escru, etc.
- Make it possible to buy and feed 'em; add a chance of well-fed mixed-sex populations spawning young.
- Make it possible to move them around without resorting to "subdue." (Stupid simple option: allow "hitch" with a skill check against ride.)
- Where appropriate/needed, add scripts for extracting resources without slaughtering the animal.

Shabago, some of your concern about farming would obviously apply to ranching too.

In favor of farming and, even more, ranching, I'd say: I'm excited about anything that lets a player build up something that PCs can fight over. Cultivated land is an okay thing to fight over; grazing land with oh-so-portable animals is maybe even better.

[LindseyBalboa]

Wilderness Quit Revamp:

Instead of just quitting in the wilderness, make wilderness quit a sociable tool that allows you to (with appropriate crafting delays) build a campsite. Other PCs can quit there, lasts the equivalent of an IG night unless the PC that made the campsite is there to maintain it with their presence. Visible via  hunt, or maybe some small room desc tag, a la "the recent remains of a campfire can be seen here." Could give a rest bonus and thirst/hunger bonuses to all characters present.

It would never be necessary to bring someone a stalker to build your camp, but it would provide small bonuses as well as roleplay opportunity for doing so.

[Pale Horse]

I do not really have any new content ideas to contribute at this time, but I wanted to take a moment to express my appreciation to Staff for chiming in on the content and ideas generated in this topic.  Also a big shout out to Shabago for taking their time to read and respond.

[Dresan]

I do not really have any new content ideas to contribute at this time, but I wanted to take a moment to express my appreciation to Staff for chiming in on the content and ideas generated in this topic.  Also a big shout out to Shabago for taking their time to read and respond.

I really love these types of threads. And have nothing but kudos for Shabago for taking the time to do this.

I myself am really scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas at this point as over the years many of the ideas suggested have already been implemented. As I mention I once suggested roman style baths as a money sink, instead we got  scented oils to clean the body which fits the theme much more but at the same time also satisfies the idea of a money sink regarding hygiene.

[BadSkeelz]

How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?

[mansa]

I want scribble to last RL days if it was done in the city.

[Dresan]

How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?

There could also be an additional cost for every person beyond 1 (100 extra sid a month) with some of the bigger apartments costing more for extra people.

[molecricket]

How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?

There could also be an additional cost for every person beyond 1 (100 extra sid a month) with some of the bigger apartments costing more for extra people.

That's the exact opposite of how multiple people renting property works.

[Kyviantre]

How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?

There could also be an additional cost for every person beyond 1 (100 extra sid a month) with some of the bigger apartments costing more for extra people.

At some point over the last year, I played a character that qualified for one of the position-exclusive apartment blocks in Allanak.  I made less per cycle (by 100 sid) than the rent was, even though that character was the target audience for it - in other words, by design, I was being encouraged to rent with another PC.

Multiple people sharing a place, should lower the cost per-person.  But I can see the benefits in a one-time larger fee to account for the 'front desk' having to get another key cut (get two as standard, you want more, pay for them).

I'm all for illegally subletting your spare room out to Shady Dude #1 for a fee to keep quiet...or even a family of 8 who just doesn't want the AoD's knowing exactly where they are living.  Or for running your prostitution ring out of.  Or any other reason.  Zalanthans must have large families, and with resources so low (for NPCs anyway!), living crowded like cockroaches under a fridge should feel more the norm, and be accessible to PCs who want that feel too.

[Doublepalli]

All for lower str characters aka elves getting gear tuned to them. But please make the damage lower as well. The last thing you want is a warclub that swings almost as fast as a dagger and hits as hard as a dwarf in the hands of an elf with a 10 point agi gap on his foe.

[Dresan]

That's the exact opposite of how multiple people renting property works.

To be clear I am all for additional money sinks. As long as character can make enough to buy food/water that is good enough. Gross poverty should be a default of this game. 

If you don't know how to make coins, join a clan.

Multiple people renting one space sounds great for everyone but the person the owners and the person at the door. An additional cost can be justified in many ways, but its an additional cost, not doubling the rent. To further simplify, you would still save money from renting with more people just not as much.

[9001]

Gross poverty should be a default of this game.

Gross poverty is the virtual default. The PCs we play tend to be or end up being on the exceptional end of what they are - from grebbers, to hunters, to thieves, to mercenaries, to merchants and so forth.

I do think the economy should reflect the theme and for the coded elements to reinforce what should and shouldn't be profitable and to what extent - but I don't think we should be forced to play the bottom of the barrel that is the virtual default. It's certainly an option and I've seen great characters represent that end of things. That kind of poverty isn't fun for everybody to play, and even when it is, it may not be fun to play except every once and a while.

I'm all for well-considered money sinks, but there's a balance to be found. The goal shouldn't be to grind players down to poverty, but to have thematically appropriate economic activity that promotes interaction, fun, and RP.

[Dresan]

Simple.

If you want to generate moderate to obscene amounts of wealth just pick a light or heavy mercantile class or a crafting sub-guild.

Or soldier...you can always be a soldier and be rich...

[number13]

From the sidebar thread:

- Dungeon crawls/rotation

Really cool and would be fun on paper. < No realistic basis.

Where did this come from? We have ruins, battle sites, outposts, research/dig sites and so on that would explain a potential location for a "dungeon", be it above or below ground. Those could potentially be built, yes. But it's a one off. The idea of rotating them with replenishing <insert loot here> is pretty jarring, imo. It's sort of like Sandy Claws is real, running about and dropping presents for people to find, after X was cleared out. This ties into the above, because ... who built it? Why? There's one group or two out there that needed <thing> and they made the thing. Beyond that, it'd be hard to game-world justify.

Random dungeon crawls don't specifically appeal to me. Doesn't really jive with the themes of the game.

That said, a lot of the game world is completely virtual. There's a myriad of buildings in the Rinth and Allanak that you can't walk into...that aren't even mentioned in the text descriptions. Virtually, those buildings are there. If suddenly you could walk into one of those buildings, it would only be OOCly jarring. In the narrative, that building would have been there all along.

Similarly, Armageddon's setting is supposedly post-apocalyptic. There has to be all sorts of ruins...somewhere...of a bygone era.

A massive sprawling ruin that randomly opens up new areas for fresh dungeon-crawling is actual content. Or tunnels that have side passages that might open or close upon reboot. Or little sinkhole caverns that open up randomly, and get filled with beasties.  Or islands that appear and disappear in the Sea. It's not that stuff doesn't exist already, it's just that it's virtual until it's codely linked into the shared narrative -- just like fresh obsidian deposits, or foraged rock deposits.

[9001]

NPC shop buyers buying 'all' per PC.
- NPC shops buying everything -> More coin - More tilted economy.

Since Shabago invited further debate once points were replied to, I want to touch on this again with the tilting of the economy in mind.

I know that there were a couple of ideas being responded to at once in that, but I think the idea I put forward isn't going to contribute to the tilting of the economy, or if it will it will be trivial enough for added value to the game to outweigh it - but I know my perspective is limited here. I'm going to explain why I think this is thematically appropriate economic activity that will be a net benefit to the game, as well as promote interaction and RP instead of just being coin generation.

My proposal was a single NPC per settlement that would cheaply buy raw materials, with a limit per IC day on how much they'd buy from a single PC. Every PC would have their own quota, so they're not fighting over who gets to sell to this NPC first. My wording earlier may have been confusing when I said they'd buy materials without limit, but I was referring to the NPC not having a limit on buying a specific item, shared or per PC. If someone had sold them five feathers that day, there would be nothing stopping them from buying a sixth from them - or a tenth, or a hundred if a bunch of PCs decided they really needed to get rid of feathers that day.

I originally said that cap of 30 sid made per PC per IC day sounded like it would prevent abuse. So if the NPC was buying at 2 sid each item, a PC could only sell 15 items per day. If this still sounds like it has the potential to add too much coin to the economy, I think a cap of 15 sid or even 10 is still workable, with each item being bought for 1 sid. I feel it's thematically appropriate for this NPC to be ripping grebbers and hunters who don't have the time or energy to be finding better deals for their goods off, and with a limit of 15 sid per IC day it's three days work to afford filling a waterskin. Working through a nice mound of dung would be more profitble.

This idea was never about trying to make a new way for PCs to get a bunch of coin, but allow certain types of characters to just barely get by doing what their IC 'job' was when they can't find work for PCs and the shops are saturated, as well as have a way to deal with some clutter that made more IC sense than 'junk bone' x 10. It can be jarring to be playing a hunter coming in with chalton hides and horns, and still having to go scrape dung or some other codedly profitable task to get by because I'm totally unable to sell them. If anything, I think that having something like this may keep PCs from having to go to those more profitable tasks instead of being able to play their concept and scrape by when waiting to get business involving other PCs.

If this NPC is also selling the items it gets, this may act as a coin sink or at least mitigate the effects of its coin generation. If some hunter comes in with their leftovers that they were unable to sell for a decent profit elsewhere and gives up their scrab shell for 1 sid just because they can't deal with holding onto it, then someone coming along and buying the shell for 50-100 sid takes money out of the economy. The NPC would have a wide variety of things, and I can see certain PCs checking for things regularly, knowing that something they find value could show up - and to run into the grebbers/hunters doing the selling. It'd be far more profitable (and fun) for everyone involved to bypass this NPC, after all.

On the topic of the NPC having things up for sale, I think it should never have more than five of a thing. Even if it was sold twenty feathers in a day, only five would be up for sale, and that virtual sales should happen very often to encourage the PCs buying from it to visit more regularly and run into the characters selling what they want to be buying. If every IC day 3 of each item in stock were disappeared by virtual sales that could represent scarcity well, and nothing would be sitting around in the inventory for more than two IC days if nobody was continuing to sell them. I don't intend it to be some one-stop shop where the inventory gets bloated with so much stuff that it stops people from having to interact with PCs to get things. Another option is to have whatever's put up for sale be sold virtually if it's been up for more than IC day, if that's easier to implement codedly. I'm aware that either way of doing this is probably quite different from how virtual sales are currently implemented and would require more work because of it. It's less about the specific way it's done and more about making sure that items put up aren't there for very long in order to promote bypassing the NPC in favor of direct interaction.

I hope that addresses at least some of the concerns on how this would interact with the economy.

[Narf]

Random Adventure Generation:

Zalanthas is a pretty large and fascinating place to explore, but due to the static nature of MUDs, and "gritty" MUDs in particular, eventually players that are inclined to explore them end up exploring everything and having nothing more to do with regards to exploration potentially for years at a time. Further, those of us that haven't explored the game as much are less inclined to because we know that any given place we go has been picked over by previous characters for anything interesting that might be there. People have suggested a random dungeon generation system, with the response that it isn't very much in theme. That seems valid, I think it'd feel too much like a public MMO and you'd start to see... breaks in how realistically people rped their characters if you had that sort of thing available. It's not a theoretical problem either, a lot of the less realistic aspects of the game that exist now have ripple effects on how people rp.

That said, I think it would be worth brainstorming ways that randomized content generation could work within the theme of the game. Some of the less creative examples might just be making randomized dungeons in places where it would be more fitting with the world to occur, relying not on ruins of unspoken past civilizations (that by necessity would have no story to them), but instead making interesting natural phenomena that lasted a while and were worth exploring. Natural phenomena doesn't need a constantly generated set of history or backgrounds, and thus avoids the issue of random dungeon generation.

Think like the northern lights, but with more weirdness associated.

Some examples:

*A rare form of crystal occurs underneath the sea of silt, and occasional vortexes or wind patterns will uncover not just the crystals but the strange ecosystem that occurs within their depths.

*A portal opens up to another plane, staying open for a limited duration. Those knowledgeable in magic might know when they open and when they close, something highly important because you do not want to get stuck on the other side when it closes.

*During particular phases of the moon a natural phenomena will occur in certain parts of the world that has strange effects on the creatures living there. Some positive, some negative. This could effect local eco systems, visiting mounts and of course players, but the area these phenomena occurs in is randomized (within certain restrictions) even if the timing is predictable to those knowledgeable in the effects of the moons.

Having shifting content like this has the potential to stir a lot of interest in exploration that will tend to die off for more veteran players over time, and I think with some brainstorming you could come up with randomized content that didn't rely on backstoryless dungeon crawls.

[Dar]

Create room wide sandstorm/siltstorm instances that occasionally apparate in Red Desert, or the silt sea. Upon entering it, you are considered lost and you've only got three options. Exit:Wonder. Exit:Escape. Or you camp down and wait it out to disperse on its own.

If you choose the exit escape.

You have 15% chance to fail and restumble back into the sandstorm and encounter a creature that might be aggressive.
You have 60% chance to fail and restumble back into the sandstorm without any dangers, a little more tired, but ready to try again.
You have 5% chance to fail and stumble onto a mysterious cave entrance/island that you can enter. It might be just a little cove that has better resting environment. It could have something living in there. It could be a network of caves with a vein of emeralds inside. Whatever else.
You have 20% chance of succeeding and stumbling out of sandstorm back into normal desert environment.

If you exit the exit 'wonder'
You have 45% chance to fail and restumble back into the sandstorm and encounter a creature that might be aggressive.
You have 25% chance to fail and stumble back into the sandstorm without any dangers. A little more tired, but ready to try again.
You have 20% chance to stumble onto a mysterious cave entrance/island that you can enter.
You have 10% chance to stumble out of the sandstorm.

Or you can camp down and after a certain time, be ejected from the sandstorm as it disperses.


Do those caves exist on the map? No they dont. Once you visit one. Can you lead others to it? No. You cant, you were in the middle of the freaking mother of all sandstorms. All you can say it's somewhere in Red Desert. Or In the middle of the silt sea. Or whatever other environs that could create instances that obscure observation and can explain people stumbling into unknown environs and then never being able to find their way back.

Boom. Now you have randomized dungeons/adventures, without needing to explain how did they appear without being there at all times. Desert is vast. The sea is vast. You can spend a lifetime looking for that odd spot you've stumbled onto once, while pushing your way through a sandstorm.

Random dungeons of this type isnt per se a theme of Armageddon? True. But personally? I think they would 'improve' the game more, then detract from it.

Balancing things out will be difficult though. I'll admit. Ways will need to be created that would prevent people from spending too long of a time inside the instanced dungeons. I suggest gradual reduction in hp/stun/mana regen and a gradual increase of temperature.

[number13]

Less jarring perhaps, there could be some 'trackless desert' rooms on the edges of the map, with two exits -- a cardinal direction that represents pressing on or 'exit'.

If a party follows the 'press on' direction a random number -2 to 5 is generated, which determines your new room number. You have a percent chance based on the room number/10 to instead be spit out into a random 'far flung' location -- a random encounter -- for which the only escape is back into the trackless desert. There would also be a very small percent chance (again, based on the room number) to be set back out on the normal grid.

If you exit, a random number -5 to 2 is generated. When the room number is less than 0, you are spit back out somewhere along the edges of the normal grid.

You can stay as long as you like in the far flung locations, and wilderness characters can quit out in trackless deserts. There might even be save/quit rooms in certain 'far flung' locations, or magical means to (re)visit these locations. The might also be a way to 'mark' a far flung location with direction sense, so that you can return via traversing the trackless desert.

Of course, the edges and middle of the Silt Sea could also have 'trackless' rooms. (For all I know, they already do.)

.........

My thinking is the content on the other end of the trackless rooms is built by builders, rather than randomly generated. Really, randomly generating compelling content in a text based game with a limited budget is probably not possible. 'Compelling' being the key word there.

The built locations could be added to over time, if the feature proves popular. Or randomly generated locations could be added to the mix, if someone is smart enough to figure out a way to make them interesting. Markov chains or whatever?

[Dar]

I honestly believe this would help the game. Keep the explorer/offpeak portion of our playerbase entertained during the lulls. And provide some mostly non consequential, but important content in conversation. When more player driven topics have dried out, or are off limits.

Sure, it's very D&Dish, but that is not necessary a bad thing.

[9001]

What about making a new critter (or adding this to an existing on) that has it burrow out some tunnels in one of the areas that's a lot of open space? Have it be an aggressive critter that lives in packs/colonies, and have it be a collector. When it comes across a dead body, or it and its packmates kill someone, it drags their remains back to its lair, which is a mini-maze of critters. Have these little mazes be procedurally generated so they're all different. They'd be spawned in their territory like another current feature of the game, and once cleared out would collapse after a bit since they're not being maintained.

At the heart of the lair would be a bunch of stuff that they'd collected - maybe some random gear/etc, perhaps actual PC gear from corpses they dragged in, or even ones that sunk into the sands in their territory.

These lairs/dens could have some variety due to procedural generation, some being smaller, some being larger and more dangerous that would require a good few people to get through. It's not quite a dungeon crawl, but it would add content to go search out for, and have 'rewards' in the loot of scavenged corpse gear and perhaps natural resources in a way that doesn't break immersion. These creatures could have dug up some interesting things that got lost in the sands over the ages to hoard in their lairs, offering a very small random chance to have some super interesting things.