A Newbie's Critique of the Application Process

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Hello there everyone! I'm brand spankin' new to this MUD and almost ready to dive in! I've submitted a character, and on the second go it was approved! So yay, that's taken care of!

BUT... in this process of approval, I think the emails sent need a massive improvement. The problem is, when I got my first email I was surprised and confused at the content, and quite frankly, found it off-putting until I realized that the majority of the response was likely automated. No, I'm not upset that I was simply rejected at all. I understand you have high standards, and I can appreciate that. It's just that the majority of the response was .. for lack of better words, inapplicable and unhelpful? Perhaps I should quote it here, to elaborate...

Your application for a character named [REDACTED] on
Armageddon MUD has been rejected for the following reason:
Your full description is not valid. Your character's full description must be at least four full lines long, based on physical attributes, and make no refernce to his or her clothing, mood, actions, thoughts, or profession. For more information, see http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php#mdesc

My thoughts on this: alright.. so my character description isn't valid...  but these reasons make no sense. I met all of these criteria. The description was way more than four lines, and it made no mention of these taboos like clothing, mood, actions, etc. And the part that really got me was a link to the page that I already read. Yes. I tried to carefully read that page already. I followed its instructions. It's basically saying what is in the email now...

Oh, and the bolded word was misspelled.   

But ok, continuing on...

Thank you for your interest in ArmageddonMUD. Unfortunately, neither your description nor background fits our game's theme and history.  If you could read more of our documentation before proceeding, you will have a better idea of what to write. http://www.armageddon.org/intro/about.php

Again, I already read this page too. The topics on this page are extremely broad and are clearly more intended to advertise the overall feel of the game. But very little specific information is here, and I'd argue it has next to nothing to do with character creation. I think that a link to this page is entirely superfluous, unless somehow, the player submitted a completely inappropriately-themed character, like something from the Harry Potter series, Mad Max, or My Little Pony. Crammed just below this hyperlink, I almost skim over it, but I finally see it:

Hello! There are no [Redacted] in Zalanthas so you'll need to edit that last line of your
description.

Ah, there we go! This is why my character's description was rejected! Ok, no problem, that was actually a quick change. But... with my being a completely new and rather ignorant player, it made me wonder if other things I took for granted really existed. Would certain types of flowers or commodities exist? Would a simple and harmless act like reading be banned? Well apparently, in this world it is. I found this out later, but on my own.

Additionally, though [Redacted] is allowed in-game virtually, it isn't actually playable by
PCs so I'll have to decline this and you'll need to edit your background. Thank you!
Since you're new, I definitely suggest joining our Discord to grab help from some of
the other players about an acceptable background.

My takeaway from this is that, based on the information I was given initially and the character creation guide, these extra constraints came from seemingly nowhere and were unfair. The reasons my application was rejected were not in these guides. I'm not saying the character was wrongly rejected; it's just that more detailed information about the world wasn't immediately available. I tried my best, and I don't mean to complain (in fact I hope this post comes off as humorous if anything),  but what a brand new player might really need is a crash course or maybe a vignette of some sort that better fleshes out these minor details of the world that are different from our own, which we take for granted.

In order to solve this problem on my own, I had to go digging through the help glossary on your main website. Now that is a very helpful tool I would recommend! It may still be lacking, but at least there are many topics there which can be reasonably searched for.

Lastly about the discord server: while I was interested in maybe joining the discord server to find some help, I realized there was no link to the discord server. I searched the email, I searched all over armageddon.org. Maybe it's there and I'm blind, but I just couldn't find it. Eventually I did find a link to the server invite by searching these forums, but this was after I extensively browsed the help glossary and got my character approved. Just saying: next time? Now that is a welcome link that would have been helpful...

Finally the response ended with this gem:

There is a guide on how to write an application on this webpage:
http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php

  So helpful.

Anyway!  I'd like to thank you all for reading this and accepting my character. It was mentioned somewhere that it often times takes players, especially brand new players, many tries to get their submissions accepted. Hopefully with some improvements, this number can be reduced. The TLDR form of my suggestions would be:

1) Minimize the automation. I would hand tailor each response to the submission. Only detail what exactly needs to be changed and why, and do not post links to the character creation guide unless there are tons of errors, and it seems the person clearly did not read said guide. Don't post a link to the about page unless their character is way off the mark.

2) Try providing other helpful information. For instance, if the player gets certain details about Allanak wrong, the help file and what you know pages would be exceedingly helpful. Anything an experienced player/staff can conjure up with the snap of their fingers to point a new person in the right direction would be a godsend.

3) Be sure to put a link to the discord server if you'd like to invite us.   

[Hauwke]

I do really like the idea of putting a discord link someplace more easily accessible.

[valeria]

Welcome!  I can't address any of these problems at all, but I'm sure staff will look at them.  I do want to say that I'm super psyched that you already care enough to offer feedback on the very first part of the process.

[Saiseiki]

Welcome!  I can't address any of these problems at all, but I'm sure staff will look at them.  I do want to say that I'm super psyched that you already care enough to offer feedback on the very first part of the process.

Ditto!  Much braver than I was.  Welcome, and I'm sure you'll find your groove here. 

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Hello everyone! Thanks for the welcome and the support.   

[Night Queen]

I don't think there should be a discord at all really, directing new people to join one as the first thing seems like it would be destroying a bit of culture that seems like it's unique to this RP to keep OOC only for essential questions and clan organisation, it makes it interesting and special

Everything should be on:

- the forum (I would also remove the out of game contact details some people have listed on their profiles and make it against the rules to post out of game contact details for anyone - if it's needed for a legitimate reason board PM)

- or the helper website thing (though when I recently tried that, it said online, but I only got a reply by email a few days later after I needed help It might be a good idea to make recruiting people to help with that more visible since it seems like there's not much timezone coverage)

- or ingame OOC chat

- or wish all (help wish) that is something definitely not advertised very well unless you read all the intro stuff very carefully, I would change it so that it doesn't need the all too (check if the word after wish is the name of staff publicly visible but that seems like it's out of date)

- or requests with the staff (the website should make this more visible I think since it's hidden under an icon of a person, you wouldn't know there's actually something so important to the game there, make biographies more visible too and have a [?] with link to information forum thread or page)

- or the forum PMs (and make it so you need to log in game account to make a forum account - it would be a good idea to have a message reminding to not abuse it and a link to the rules there too because I bet a lot of people don't read)


The reason for or all this is if you think of it like a virus where you want to stop the spread of infection, corruption is like that to stop before it starts - and everyone that plays by the rules can be happier knowing there's a line clearly set of what is acceptable and encouraging people to do the right thing and not let vulnerable people get dragged down by stuff like peer pressure, this is the basis for most real life safeguards - makes new links between people clear and known so less investigation workload needed by staff or people blowing the whistle because it can be very time-intensive to prove stuff on the internet (but pretty much impossible to not get caught when the time is put in to do busts)

This forum is the friendliest one around I am pretty sure

[NinjaFruitSalad]

You mean having discord further encourages metagaming and OOC collusion and info leaks which should not happen?

Yeah, I'm sure it does...

It also makes having a legit conversation, especially in the #help thing easy.

[Hauwke]

The forum actually gets quite combative at times, a forum is not the perfect method to having civil discourse.

I don't know what the perfect method is, but having a discord has brought me closer to the community in some ways and I don't think that is at all a bad thing.

[Lizzie]

One idea - and I don't know how discord "works" so I don't know if this is even possible.

All new *accounts* could get sent an invitation to the helper chat on Discord. They would not have any access to the rest of the Armageddon Chat, at all, until either a helper or someone on staff invites them, after they've appeared in help chat. They wouldn't have access to the main list of people logged in - they'd only be able to see staff members and helpers logged in to Discord, even if they're currently not in chat.

In addition, if a new account asks for help while in the help chat, it will send some strange-colored repeat in the main Arm channel so everyone is directed to notice that there's someone in chat who is actively seeking help (and not some random new account popping in just to see what it looks like).

Sort of like in some games, if when someone logs in, the "people in charge" see [newbie logged in 1:24:17 3/9/2020 to the Hall of Kings] but if the player says "help i'm new what do i do next" then the people in charge, AND the helpers, AND veterans who have permission to see stuff like this, would see [newbie in hall of kings: help i'm new what do i do next"].

Only difference is it would be in discord and not in the game. And as always - since it's in discord, these people can be muted by staff, or blocked by anyone so it would never become troublesome.

[valeria]

I'm not sure that it makes sense to put an arbitrary barrier to entry on the discord server just because someone is new. We don't do that on the forums (restricting people to the new player forum for instance). It's probably a good place to get questions answered and to connect with the community, if you're the kind of person who's into that. The necessary info should probably just be put in the new account email.

[Night Queen]

having a discord has brought me closer to the community in some ways and I don't think that is at all a bad thing

I don't think there should be a discord because the rules say discussing the game OOC is not allowed and I think it should be the same rules for everyone, there's only a few groups that are able to reliably crack discord at the moment (though this is the kind of thing that motivates the kind of people!) and people brave enough to report bad stuff are rare (this is a universal law), and even then that's still less time consuming than other types of investigation (which are pretty much impossible to not get caught by at least) - I understand it's nice to make new friends, the clan forums or even rare moments on OOC can be really heartwarming at times But if people want to make friends there's forum PM? It seems like it goes against the spirit of this too which seems like a really good foundation:

Please understand that we're not trying to end your fun; rather, we want to make sure that the IC/OOC line is very clear and well-maintained. And, that the whole playerbase is one OOC community rather than being split off into smaller groups.

having a legit conversation, especially in the #help thing easy

The helper website thing I mentioned is meant to be that (the "GET LIVE HELP!") on the front page, but it just needs more people on it more regularly I think (It's probably worth being tested now and then to see what the experience is like for people trying to use it) And the button should probably not be a discreet shade of brown too

[Hauwke]

having a discord has brought me closer to the community in some ways and I don't think that is at all a bad thing

I don't think there should be a discord because the rules say discussing the game OOC is not allowed and I think it should be the same rules for everyone, there's only a few groups that are able to reliably crack discord at the moment (though this is the kind of thing that motivates the kind of people!) and people brave enough to report bad stuff are rare (this is a universal law), and even then that's still less time consuming than other types of investigation (which are pretty much impossible to not get caught by at least) - I understand it's nice to make new friends, the clan forums or even rare moments on OOC can be really heartwarming at times But if people want to make friends there's forum PM? It seems like it goes against the spirit of this too which seems like a really good foundation:

Please understand that we're not trying to end your fun; rather, we want to make sure that the IC/OOC line is very clear and well-maintained. And, that the whole playerbase is one OOC community rather than being split off into smaller groups.

having a legit conversation, especially in the #help thing easy

The helper website thing I mentioned is meant to be that (the "GET LIVE HELP!") on the front page, but it just needs more people on it more regularly I think (It's probably worth being tested now and then to see what the experience is like for people trying to use it) And the button should probably not be a discreet shade of brown too

It's discussing hidden mechanics, magick and recent events that are disallowed.

The whole discord is under moderation same as the Forum is.

[triste]

having a discord has brought me closer to the community in some ways and I don't think that is at all a bad thing

I don't think there should be a discord because the rules say discussing the game OOC is not allowed and I think it should be the same rules for everyone, there's only a few groups that are able to reliably crack discord at the moment (though this is the kind of thing that motivates the kind of people!) and people brave enough to report bad stuff are rare (this is a universal law), and even then that's still less time consuming than other types of investigation (which are pretty much impossible to not get caught by at least) - I understand it's nice to make new friends, the clan forums or even rare moments on OOC can be really heartwarming at times But if people want to make friends there's forum PM? It seems like it goes against the spirit of this too which seems like a really good foundation:

Please understand that we're not trying to end your fun; rather, we want to make sure that the IC/OOC line is very clear and well-maintained. And, that the whole playerbase is one OOC community rather than being split off into smaller groups.

having a legit conversation, especially in the #help thing easy

The helper website thing I mentioned is meant to be that (the "GET LIVE HELP!") on the front page, but it just needs more people on it more regularly I think (It's probably worth being tested now and then to see what the experience is like for people trying to use it) And the button should probably not be a discreet shade of brown too

It is a bit of a derail, and a lot of people are going to disagree with you, but I wanted to whole heartedly thank you for bringing this topic up NightQueen.

I know for a fact that several people have quit because of this dynamic on Discord.

I know for a fact several players abuse Discord and entire servers dedicated to metagaming exist.

It is a pity we lose good players who just want to enjoy good roleplay.

It is a pity the players who metagame via discord, cheat and frustrate good players go unpunished and indeed are even repeatedly rewarded with staff sponsored roles and favors.

To any new players sensitive to outcomes that can seem unfair [and objectively are unfair, if such a thing can be objectively measured] -- I just want to echo and back up NightQueen's advice and feedback here.

If I ever play Armageddon again I will try to avoid Discord so that I can remain blissfully unaware of the metagamers there. Generally when there is a problem a well intentioned person will try to do something about it, like speaking up about it [thanks again NightQueen], but if nothing can be done about a problem your only choice is to ignore it and focus on what is good [the roleplay itself].

[Nathvaan]

We do appreciate feedback of this ilk.  The only way we can improve proccesses are to get candid feedback from users, assess that feedback within the limitations of the tools and policies we have in place and make the appropriate changes.

Similarly, we cannot help in any way when we don't have direct candid feedback for issue like:

It is a pity the players who metagame via discord, cheat and frustrate good players go unpunished and indeed are even repeatedly rewarded with staff sponsored roles and favors.

The proper channel for letting us know is in the request tool with a player or staff complaint.  Include as much detail as possible and we will look into it.  We take all complaints seriously and see each and everyone as an avenue toward improvement if/when the complaint is found credible and actionable.

[triste]

The proper channel for letting us know is in the request tool with a player or staff complaint.  Include as much detail as possible and we will look into it.  We take all complaints seriously and see each and everyone as an avenue toward improvement if/when the complaint is found credible and actionable.

I have followed formal channels. My complaint was found to be credible, but the player violating OOC rules was given a slap on the wrist for making a "mistake," and continues to use and abuse OOC channels outside those run by Armageddon. Similarly I reported another player OOCing about players and nothing was done to address his behavior either. The Imm handling the case told me to just stop talking to him and following Imm advice I cut off this friendship, a lovely and painful reward for caring about rules.

I can forgive the repeated pattern of Imm non-enforcement because the problem exceeds the scope of Imm pureview. With all due respect, Nathvaan, this is the 'official staff response' that is always lined up when this topic comes up, and with all due respect, staff cannot do anything about the problem. And that is not staff's fault.

I mentioned the metagaming servers staff cannot control. Before discord even existed, rule violating Arma players used IRC, ICQ, AIM. Just like with the modern non official Armageddon discord servers, staff have been aware of forums for game-experience-ruining-cheating for decades. I think the Shadowboard has existed for more than a decade. And for decades, players have complained about metagaming and provided evidence. So far as I have seen the vast majority of complaints have been handled like mine. At the end of the day Staff have to judge off of private logs, and they can't in good conscious deliver more than a slap on the wrist.

And so we have a situation where truly egregious metagamers are rewarded with roles and go unpunished for years. And so we have a system in which good players can submit a complaint, see nothing will change, and leave the game. Is it staff's fault for not punishing metagamers? Yes and no, see the above. Is it ever bad for a good player to report metagaming? No, but the situation is unlikely to be fixed, and you are likely to earn ire for being a snitch. Should the people who metagame stop? Yes, but why would they stop committing a crime that gives them an unfair advantage, particularly when punishment is rare and light.

The problem has existed before Discord, but NightQueen is correct that Discord has made the problem worse by many magnitudes and made it a problem that has spread like a virus. I literally have DMs piled up with people saying "Do you play ___?" or "Are you ___ on the GDB?" I don't even check Discord or reply to these messages anymore because what is the point of trying to defend rules no one follows. Caring about the rules and following them is at this point a self injurious act.

OOC metagaming has always been a problem, it's gotten worse because Discord facilitates it, and so the magnitude of hurt for good, fairness-oriented players has increased, and the amount of rewards to those who metagame has increased.

Thinking of solutions for this requires a rework of OOC comms [I am working on an anonymous comms system for another game], but it may be too late for Armageddon because even if Discord went belly up, people who gleefully metagame will go to AIM or other more modern messaging apps.

The quote from Adhira NightQueen provided really is bittersweet. It fully represents the impasse here.

And so, if you can't stand metagaming, you can try to do something and be vilified for breaking up friendships in Adhira's words, or just look away. I find nothing more painful than being vilified for doing the right thing and it has happened so many times that now I must look away.

[kahuna]

People who want other players banned or punished severely for "metagaming" should probably adjust their expectations. Stop taking the game so seriously. It's ultimately a d&d tabletop in text based form and to think that players won't discuss things privately is naive at best, and absurdly ignorant at worst. People used to use aim/icq/irc and now it is discord. Discord isn't any worse than any other medium.

Trying to ensure the integrity of the game is not the players responsibility it is staff and they do the best they can with what they have to work with. If you banned every player that spoke about the game in private channels you'd have an empty game.

[triste]

People who want other players banned or punished severely for "metagaming" should probably adjust their expectations. Stop taking the game so seriously. It's ultimately a d&d tabletop in text based form and to think that players won't discuss things privately is naive at best, and absurdly ignorant at worst. People used to use aim/icq/irc and now it is discord. Discord isn't any worse than any other medium.

Trying to ensure the integrity of the game is not the players responsibility it is staff and they do the best they can with what they have to work with. If you banned every player that spoke about the game in private channels you'd have an empty game.

Yes, this is basically a summary of my previous post, and also validates that negative sentiment is thrown on people who care about the rules.

So thank you again NightQueen for bravely addressing a problem that is dangerous to speak about.

Thank you for the imms past like Adhira who tried to fix the problem and defend what was [once] unique and great about this game.

If you banned every player that spoke about the game in private channels you'd have an empty game.

This is an exaggeration but not far from the truth [edit]. The typical result of corrupt systems and laws that are well known to be empty and unenforceable is that players who dislike things like corruption, rule breaking and cheating vote with their feet and leave. It is sad knowing the roster of players like this who have already left.

[triste]

Anyway as I observed in my original reply, this topic is a derail.

I don't play anymore but I still care about new players and I still care about people enjoying the game.

On the topic NightQueen raised, yes, there is a lot this game gets wrong about communications.

Tying this back into OP's post, there are some issues with communication in this game which cannot be fixed. This was a conclusion I came to on my own. More harshly, Kahuna has called expecting fairness "absurdly ignorant." More delicately, I will tell you to try and look away from the evil that cannot be fixed and try to enjoy what is still good about this game, the mechanics that have been built to facilitate roleplay and so forth.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Yes, I think it is a derail.  Thanks for probably getting my topic locked in the future.

But hey, since we're here, let me just ask you this: if you say,

...with all due respect, staff cannot do anything about the problem. And that is not staff's fault.

Then why are we derailing?

I would like it if there was no metagaming too, but with that attitude, seems like people have come to this thread to complain about discord and the handling of other OOC issues, when there is either nothing that can or should be done.

I think at best it would deserve it's own topic, but again.. if you say there's nothing the staff can do, why bother? I'm sure some abusers could be punished more severely. The same people will likely keep doing the same things, but do it elsewhere and be more discreet about it...

[triste]

I was honoring a derail someone else started.

On the topic of staff feedback being inconsistent [OP] the same principles apply. It is human nature and it can't be fixed to an extent. There are formal channels of complaint. Your mileage may vary and I will never stop someone from doing the right thing. But as a warning, people are sometimes hurt for doing the right thing.

It would be interesting to see if there was less anonymity in staff-player interactions and staff had to be elected but that is not the system this game has.

[Night Queen]

The very first reply was wanting more discord (the first post had a quote I think from an email saying new people should join it), I think we are allowed to disagree if it's polite I agree stuff like that hurts just about any RP game, but that doesn't mean it can't be stopped any more than saying real life corruption exists everywhere so it's pointless to fight it - It's really not, when people know there's people doing the sometimes thankless (thank these people) but immensely rewarding work of making things fair for everyone, even people without a conscience get deterred

I think my suggestions would help a lot (and what you said about logs too since storing text is very cheap) - Just cut away all the bad of the links for out of of game contact stuff from website, disassociate from that, take back control from that corporation and make the game's own website easier to talk on instead (making everything have a more obvious trail is passive deterrence to keep people honest and frees up time for busting the really bad people)

With live help chat more visible, more helper recruitment, and taking account of what time zones aren't covered yet (or everyone is AFK like when I tried to use it recently ), a better future is always possible, make those people take a long hard look at themselves and maybe they will even decide to help start reporting it together instead of turning blind eyes to friends being corrupt, these battles have been won all over the world many times, always gets better when people take responsibility - and want obscure but unique and incredibly valuable things like the writing that happens in this game to survive instead of die from thousand cuts of apathy, say no to being part of stuff like that and be the change

[GreyMenhir]

To OP: It's been so long since I've become used to the automatic emails, that I didn't even realized until you brought it up.... When I get an email from Arm, I skip to the bottom to look for actual comments.

I'm used to it, but wow, as a newbie, you'd have to read a lot more stock content, realize it's stock content, and know where to look on the website, gdb, or scour the IG helpfuls or OOC helpfiles to a lot of problems to be fixed throughout your Arm 'career'.

That's a lot to parse and take in. Did you find the Guide for Newbies that was on the GDB? What did you think of that? When I first made a char, I remember not realizing that writing was forbidden for my caste. Should that be a thing we go ahead and add to the char creation process IG? Like we have those other tips about descs, one more couldn't hurt, right?

I'm going to try to look at more things with fresh eyes. Thank you for your feedback and very specific examples. I see some other good points and suggestions in here too.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Seems we have another new player trying to get an application in, and now there isn't even a reason listed!  Unless the screenshot was edited or something...

Anyway, I had another suggestion, related to this. I think another form of communication would be very helpful too, such as an "Extra Notes" section you can tack onto each application, which is basically an OOC place on the application the player can write other comments and ask other questions. I think that bit of extra communication would be very helpful, especially in a case like this where it may be a bug or mistake. Or maybe the previous directions weren't clear.

[Bogre]

To OP: It's been so long since I've become used to the automatic emails, that I didn't even realized until you brought it up.... When I get an email from Arm, I skip to the bottom to look for actual comments.

I'm used to it, but wow, as a newbie, you'd have to read a lot more stock content, realize it's stock content, and know where to look on the website, gdb, or scour the IG helpfuls or OOC helpfiles to a lot of problems to be fixed throughout your Arm 'career'.

Yeah - maybe Imm-written comments should be at the top and stock stuff revised to after: maybe speaking to 'common mistakes include 'clothes, reading, etc'. That way it feels like the application is personally addressed. I think my very first app the Imm just straight up edited clothes out of my description and approved me.

[Harmless]

I just want you to know that i have been here a while and occasionally I get a rejection over description issues, there are reasons why it is so stringent because descriptions are an important game mechanic, there needs to basically be at least a few keywords from the short desc also in the long (main) desc for it to be approved. Generally I am happy when they reject me because my final product is better.

Agree with the constructive points as others said.