Common Sense

[Carnage]

A few things I've noticed in game over the past few months that I think it's now safe to comment on, regarding poor play and overlooking a few things.

1.)Just because there aren't any coded guards in a tavern doesn't mean there isn't a VNPC guard or two stationed around. Do you really think that, in a military state, there would not be members of the Militia in a rowdy tavern? That means if you plan on attacking someone in there, use your head. If you start hurling knives and daggers in from an adjacent room, you would realistically be caught in arrested. Even further, if someone goes and attacks another person in the tavern, they're probably going to be arrested before they can get away. They might manage to kill the other person, but it's likely they'll be caught.

2.)Be flexible with the 'no weapons out' rule. One thing I witnessed was a blind man being told to put away his staff, since it was a weapon. Come on. Yes, a staff could be used as a weapon. It's also able to be used as a walking stick and something to help feel out an area or as a lever. Be realistic.

3.)While taking people into a clan, ask yourself whether or not it's good to have newbies in this clan. Yes, it's good to take them in and help them, but there are certain clans not well suited to this. The northern and southern militias, as well as Kuraci stationed to police Luir's, is not a good clan for a person who has just come from a hack and slash MUD and has just noticed that noble's shiny ring.

4.)If you're new to an area, look at -everyone- before you approach or talk to them. You'll be sure to know who they are and how to talk to them.

5.)Last, but not least, you'll get much further if you're too polite than not polite enough.

In summary, when you play this game, use your fucking head. It's not too hard to use common sense to figure some of these things out. However, I think with the advent of new players and a few things in particular, people need to be reminded.

[Durant]

Not sure where all this is coming from, but really every post you made is a matter of your perspective and should/could not be held as the gospel.

1.)Just because there aren't any coded guards in a tavern doesn't mean there isn't a VNPC guard or two stationed around. Do you really think that, in a military state, there would not be members of the Militia in a rowdy tavern? .

Well really that would depend on the room description I believe. The number of people living in a city (say the size of Allanak) it is of course a possibility that there are no militia standing in a bar policing a few rowdys. After all isn't that the responsability of the bar owner at the end of the day? Assuming there is a guard is just as questionable as assuming their isn't. Read the room descriprion, if it's a busy place then yes there may be a guard around and yes they'll likely  alert others of what has just occurred (A strange lad tossing a pointy object at another being) this is covered in most cases by the crim code aye?

3.)While taking people into a clan, ask yourself whether or not it's good to have newbies in this clan.

Now you're making an ooc distinction.
"The templar looks at the gruff man who has inquired about joining the Arm of the Dragon and says in sirihish 'Sorry ya newbie I ain't gunna hire ya, head to da Byn!'
The thought process of how 'new' a person is at Arm should never enter into your characters mind.

5.)Last, but not least, you'll get much further if you're too polite than not polite enough.

That bad, bad man over there would rape my grandmother and mother while he takes every last sid we own. Why would I want to be polite to him?
If you ask me there are far to many polite people in Zalanthas when you think of the level of despair most live in.
Less politeness if you ask me!

[John]

If you ask me there are far to many polite people in Zalanthas when you think of the level of despair most live in.
Less politeness if you ask me!

Now I agree with that. If I ever make my character polite, it's either
A> Because of some IC situation (or more commonly)
B> It's an underhanded back-stabbing fake type of politeness, where he might sound like he's asking ya to do something nicely, but really, he's ordering you to do it.

Oh and there's nothing worse then it being IC for people to treat you as the scum of the earth, and people constantly use the words "thankyou" and "please" to you  :roll: I can expect one or two people doing it as the exception to the rule. But it gets to the stage where EVERYONE is playing the exception to the rule  :evil:

[Carnage]

Not sure where all this is coming from,

A few things I've noticed in game over the past few months that I think it's now safe to comment on, regarding poor play and overlooking a few things.

The number of people living in a city (say the size of Allanak) it is of course a possibility that there are no militia standing in a bar policing a few rowdys.

...commoners are usually of the merchant class or soldiers in Tektolnes' army.

Most commoners are either merchants or Militia. Let's put it at, say, a 50/50 position. For every two or so commoners you see, you have about two members of the Militia. I'm sure there's one in a crowded bar, whether on or off duty.

After all isn't that the responsability of the bar owner at the end of the day? Assuming there is a guard is just as questionable as assuming their isn't.

(A strange lad tossing a pointy object at another being) this is covered in most cases by the crim code aye?

Nope.

Now you're making an ooc distinction.
"The templar looks at the gruff man who has inquired about joining the Arm of the Dragon and says in sirihish 'Sorry ya newbie I ain't gunna hire ya, head to da Byn!'
The thought process of how 'new' a person is at Arm should never enter into your characters mind.

That's a pretty train of thought but it doesn't quite work. I'll direct you back to my post on why:

Yes, it's good to take them in and help them, but there are certain clans not well suited to this. The northern and southern militias, as well as Kuraci stationed to police Luir's, is not a good clan for a person who has just come from a hack and slash MUD and has just noticed that noble's shiny ring.'

That bad, bad man over there would rape my grandmother and mother while he takes every last sid we own. Why would I want to be polite to him?
If you ask me there are far to many polite people in Zalanthas when you think of the level of despair most live in.
Less politeness if you ask me!

It wasn't referring to a situation like that, it was referring to meeting with nobility, merchants, merchant house family members, whatever. Now if you want to be rude and earn their scorn, go right ahead. I'll just assume you don't have many characters that don't live over 5 days played.[/quote]

[Quirk]

Most commoners are either merchants or Militia. Let's put it at, say, a 50/50 position. For every two or so commoners you see, you have about two members of the Militia. I'm sure there's one in a crowded bar, whether on or off duty.

I'd say 50-50 would be highly disingenuous. After all you could divide our society along roughly the same lines - merchants and tradesmen, soldiers and police, politicians and CEOs, etc - but that doesn't mean that the groups are at all equal in numbers nor that they will drink in the same bars, necessarily. The vast majority of us, in Arm terms, belong to merchantile and crafting occupations and I suspect the same would be the case on Arm, if only to enable a standing army to be supported. Standing armies have always historically been small fractions of the populations supporting them.

As things stand however, I think that militia being in the bar would not be out of place given their heavy presence on the streets.

That said, I'm mildly torn on the whole crim code aspect. For a harsh world, Zalanthas is frighteningly law-abiding. In highly civilised Earth cities with policemen bound to uphold laws that protect even the weakest of citizens, a vast proportion of crimes go unsolved with the perpetrators unknown, even simple assaults. Ideally I'd like to see a crim code system in which whether the criminal was flagged for pursuit was at least partially random, perhaps influenced by factors such as the race, affilations and accent of the victim as well as the gravity of the crime. Victimising a noble would be very high risk, but stealing a dagger from a half-elf loner with a Northern accent in 'Nak surely should not - do the militia really care about every crime, especially if it doesn't affect anyone important? The help files on the templarate who control them manifestly suggest that justice is not their major aim.

Now you're making an ooc distinction.
"The templar looks at the gruff man who has inquired about joining the Arm of the Dragon and says in sirihish 'Sorry ya newbie I ain't gunna hire ya, head to da Byn!'
The thought process of how 'new' a person is at Arm should never enter into your characters mind.

Yes, yes it should. If that person is to be put in a position of authority, particularly in the militia where the laws are at least partially suspended in their case, there is a very real OOC question as to whether they can handle that responsibility in a way consistent with the world norms or whether they will abuse it. The situation is aggravated by the fact that the code does not always act in accord with the way the social framework of the world works - if a lowly militia member just up and attacks an important aide of a Noble House, codedly NPC militia members will assist him. From an RP perspective this is an incredibly unlikely outcome - the NPCs ought to treat their comrade as having gone mad and endeavour to restrain him, but the code doesn't have the discernment to make the distinction between the aide and the filthy thief who tried to fight his way past an hour ago. Indeed, it shouldn't make the distinction - if the aide is apprehended on a templar's orders, the whole thing would be above board.

It wasn't referring to a situation like that, it was referring to meeting with nobility, merchants, merchant house family members, whatever. Now if you want to be rude and earn their scorn, go right ahead. I'll just assume you don't have many characters that don't live over 5 days played.

Carnage should probably have made this clear in his first post, but the importance of politeness to your social betters is a very valid point, and one that not all the playerbase seem to have got to grips with yet. I'd note that among experienced players this doesn't seem to be a huge problem though, it's more often the occasional newbie learning his or her way about the world who seems to have difficulty keeping their mouth in check.

[Bestatte]

Well it's time to get flamed again, so here goes:

I think some players who go out of their way to help newbies, are going overboard. You get a newb who shows up and tells a noble that his mother was a ho..

And the noble tries to "help" the newbie. I think the best way to "help" a newbie in a case like that is to show the newbie exactly what happens when ANY OTHER CHARACTER tells a noble that his mother was a ho.

You don't sit them down and explain how that wasn't very nice, and pretty please don't do that again. You beat the shit out of him and drag his miserable ass outside the gate for the mekillots to eat.

Or you arrange for someone else to do it. Not next week after the newbie has already pissed off half the city, today. Right this minute. That's what your guards are for, afterall. It's what you pay them to do, and you know damned well you'd be doing that if you knew the character who uttered such vile insult was played by a veteran.

Show by example doesn't mean being nice to newbies. It means treating them, ICly at least, exactly how you'd treat any other character in the game, given your character's personality.

Changing your character's personality JUST so you can help out newbies just makes it totally fucked up for everyone else who's watching, because then THEY are stuck having to deal with the aftermath.

Grrr.. Okay I'm done, flame on.

[My 2 sids]

Bestatte makes an exellent point and distinction.  You can teach newbies without being "friends" with them.  If you snap your fingers and have someone dragged off and beaten or fined or enslaved... they know what they did was wrong and have to suffer for it.  If you a newbie does the same thing, don't let them off... just explain to them what they did wrong as you torture them.

Something I'm not sure anyone has cosidered before or not... newbies may get board with the game.  After all the hype of how hard it is to live and what a harsh world and blah blah blah... I think some might feel disapointed if they are suddenly being treated all nice and in "happy, fluffy, bunny land" (tm).

One last comment, on crowded rooms...  Just because it's crowded, dosen't mean people are wanting to notice you.  I would be willing to bet "not my problem" is a motto more than a few live by in a world like this.  Its safer just to mind your own buisness than go out looking for trouble.  Some might be spies sure, but my guess is the majority of poeple just don't want to know what your up to.

[Anarchy]

I tend to agree that you should think if the PC is a Newbie Player, its very hard to do i would think if you know nothing about the game world. I was offered a milita soldier by a certain templar, i turned it down for the simple fact i -knew- i couldn't do the role or play it well enough - if i knew that then i feel newbies should too, and avoid joining role were you mix with nobles and politics until your familar with the game world.

As for the Taverns, world of bribes, does the tavern owner pay the milita to patrol more around his tavern? No? then why would a milita soldier give a shit. in military states the military force is active almost all of the time, they may have a day or two off during the entire month as a soldier why would they slum it with commoners who they may of arrested the other day?(IE slumming it in the Gaj). I feel that the Gaj in Allanak would have next to no guards in it. The guards are only in the dorms to provent over the top twinkish abuse.

[Anonymous]

Ok, as reluctant as I am to do this after CindyLou and mansa schooled me (at least it wasn't the evil Bestatte)...

There is no way that out of 450k or so commoners that 225k are militia.  There is just no way.

[gfair]

5.)Last, but not least, you'll get much further if you're too polite than not polite enough.

I have to take exception to this comment.  Being polite all the time is boring, inconsistent with human behaviour, and doesn't make for a very interesting game,  I recommend against it.  Rather, be nice when your character would be nice, and be mean, stupid, stubborn, antagonistic when your character would be that too.  Don't be afraid to stir it up, clash a bit, put people in their place, grinde an axe or two and then use them in combat.

[Anonymous]

5.)Last, but not least, you'll get much further if you're too polite than not polite enough.

I have to take exception to this comment.  Being polite all the time is boring, inconsistent with human behaviour, and doesn't make for a very interesting game,  I recommend against it.  Rather, be nice when your character would be nice, and be mean, stupid, stubborn, antagonistic when your character would be that too.  Don't be afraid to stir it up, clash a bit, put people in their place, grinde an axe or two and then use them in combat.

I think he is talking about new players here.  If they want to live they need to be polite long enough to learn who they need to be polite to.

I don't think anyone is suggesting all players be polite.

[Beautiful Lump of Coal]

Even further, if someone goes and attacks another person in the tavern, they're probably going to be arrested before they can get away.

I just wanted to throw in my own perspective on this. On several occasions I've witnessed attacks in a tavern that occurred after all PCs (but the attacker and the attackee) have filtered out of the tavern. It seemed a little more than coincidence because all was calm until the last potential PC "witness" left... a few seconds later, combat was initiated. New players need to realize that, yes, there are other people in the tavern.

[Quirk]

5.)Last, but not least, you'll get much further if you're too polite than not polite enough.

I have to take exception to this comment.  Being polite all the time is boring, inconsistent with human behaviour, and doesn't make for a very interesting game,  I recommend against it.  Rather, be nice when your character would be nice, and be mean, stupid, stubborn, antagonistic when your character would be that too.  Don't be afraid to stir it up, clash a bit, put people in their place, grinde an axe or two and then use them in combat.

Um, it might not be a bad idea to read the entire thread before you post. Carnage posted in his follow-up message:

It wasn't referring to a situation like that, it was referring to meeting with nobility, merchants, merchant house family members, whatever. Now if you want to be rude and earn their scorn, go right ahead. I'll just assume you don't have many characters that don't live over 5 days played.

It rather goes hand in hand with the recent discussion over the RP guideline that the vast majority of Zalanthans consider nobles to be better than them. Given that people have been indoctrinated into believing in the social structure and their place within it, it's likely that they will show the respect expected when dealing with those of a higher class.

Quirk

[gfair]

I think he is talking about new players here.  If they want to live they need to be polite long enough to learn who they need to be polite to.

I don't think anyone is suggesting all players be polite.

Regardless - new players by no means should be encouraged to be nice all the time.  What does "get further" mean, exactly?  I've seen characters played by total newbies get fussy, angry, and act totally contrary to Carnage's statement.  They don't die.  They aren't struck down by a bolt of nice energy from the God of Get-along.

You can do anything in this world and get far according to what you think "get further" means to your character, so experiment, make mistakes, be a jerk.  Your characters have only one life, but you can play multiple characters, and while lots of PCs die in any given week, you can be anything but polite and get away with it in a lot of circumstances.

Also, Carnage & CRW, this thread is called "Common Sense", not "Newbies read this: Common Sense", so if it is addressing newbies, it isn't obvious.

[marko]

Allanak's population is not 50% merchants and 50% militia.

Tuluk's popultion is not 50% merchants and 50% militia.

Although I hope this was not what was meant with the 50/50 split comment.  I am assuming it was meant specifically for taverns.

The population in taverns is not 50% merchants and 50% militia.

It is quite possible and potentially probable (depending on the tavern) that there may not be a single militia in the tavern.

If there were meant to be militia in taverns at all times then I suspect one would see militia mentioned in either the room desc (for virtual representation) or one (or more) would be stationed there at all times (via an npc).

[Carnage]

Also, Carnage & CRW, this thread is called "Common Sense", not "Newbies read this: Common Sense", so if it is addressing newbies, it isn't obvious.

However, I think with the advent of new players and a few things in particular, people need to be reminded.

Several people are right, my 50/50 number is a bit superfluous as I was typing it early morning and in a rush. I would assume, however, that there is quite a large presence of Militia members in Allanak. To the average commoner, it's a great job. Getting schooled in proper military protocol at the Tor Academy, good money, serving the glorious Highlord, and basically getting authority and knowing your word is automatically better than many other's.

Would it surprise me if 50% of Allanaki commoners (and I saw commoners since, according to the What-you-know docs, there are more slaves in Allanak than commoners) were Militia? Hell no. Becoming a merchant means you need to be crafty and sly. I don't think many Allanaki citizens are like this. Joining the Militia would be an easy way for them to make 'sid and comes with some pretty nice benefits.

I generally assume VNPCs in noble houses have some family member inside or some sort of connection and that not just any commoner can become one. Of course, that's my own perspective.

You can do anything in this world and get far according to what you think "get further" means to your character, so experiment, make mistakes, be a jerk. Your characters have only one life, but you can play multiple characters, and while lots of PCs die in any given week, you can be anything but polite and get away with it in a lot of circumstances.

Get further by being polite = not dying because you're an asshole.

My suggestion applies in some of the following scenarios--

You get arrested for stealing. You can either take my advice and throw yourself down at the mercy of such an august personality and stay on your knees. Or you can decide not to take it, just stand there and be as rigid as a plank.

Or say if you want a job. You can take my advice of being polite, walking up to that noble and bowing, thanking him for sparing you the moment to speak with someone as lowly as yourself, and then ask to serve his glorious house. Or you can not take my advice and start yelling across the room, "HEY CAN I HAVE A JOB!"

It's really not a brain teaser to figure out which one of the two is going to live longer.

[Bestatte]

The one who yells will get the job, because everyone will assume he's a noob and rush to help.

/sarcasm

[John]

If that person is to be put in a position of authority, particularly in the militia where the laws are at least partially suspended in their case, there is a very real OOC question as to whether they can handle that responsibility in a way consistent with the world norms or whether they will abuse it.

Good point. When I was in the militia, I actually arrested someone by myself, and the second I did one particular thing, I knew I'd done the wrong. Then later on when I looked back at it, I'd realised I had done a few things wrong. However that was a big learning experience for me, and I became a lot better because of it. So in this way, newbies should be given a chance in the militia, because while they might not understand everything, they will learn a HECK of a lot

Having said that (and I don't think this is IC), most clans have a 1 OOC week waiting period before accepting people into their clan. This is normally long enough for the newbie to kill themself off or do something extremely stupid to make them not be accepted if they're COMPLETELY clueless

It wasn't referring to a situation like that, it was referring to meeting with nobility, merchants, merchant house family members

Thanks for making that clearer

However what a commoner would see as polite is completely different to what a noble would see as polite (paraphrasing that awful CindyLou here). A commoner would see "g'day M'lord. Awful kinda o' ya to talk to me. Why I almost wet myself silly when I realised ya would. Why when i go to tell me whore o' a mother what happened she'll burst with happiness and prolly cum all o'er the place. Anyway. Reason I wanted ta talk ta ya M'Lord was cause I want a job wit'ya M'Lord." It would be completely IC for the commoner to do that (if they weren't high bred).

And the noble tries to "help" the newbie. I think the best way to "help" a newbie in a case like that is to show the newbie exactly what happens when ANY OTHER CHARACTER tells a noble that his mother was a ho.

You don't sit them down and explain how that wasn't very nice, and pretty please don't do that again. You beat the shit out of him and drag his miserable ass outside the gate for the mekillots to eat.

Yes, yes and yes. First character. I make someone who can read (I provide strange circumstances and demonstrate I understand it should be kept secret). I make "friends" in a bar, I deliberately accidently make my char blab (the docs said to do not make your chars perfect and it seemed like it was a reasonable mistake to make), I was then betrayed by my "friends" and lied to by a Templar who questioned me and was promptly killed. Want to know my reaction? DAMN I love this mud OOC help, don't IC help

Allanak's population is not 50% merchants and 50% militia.

Your more likely to know then me. But the docs say that two thirds of the population of Allanak is slaves. So 50% would be of the remaining one third. Merchants is fairly ambiguous though, although I'm assuming that it includes all non-militia (House guards, mercenaries, beggars, servants, etc). Just wanted to clarify that's what you meant