Master Scan?

[DesertT]

Is there a point to Master Scan other than spotting hidden kagors or flying buzzards, perhaps the random hidden rat? 

It just seems with all the Advanced Sneak plus sneak + gear make Master Scan for the three guilds mostly negligible.

Yup, I'm venting here. 

I mean, if you're a city/criminal class and have Master Scan, that should get a perk in the cities.

If you're a desert class and have Master Scan, perk in the sands.

I just don't believe I've really come across any significant perks of having Master Scan, all the while being snuck up on, or stolen from with containers opened at the whim of pretty much anyone it seems.  I'm sure that's not the case, but...

So yes, my suggestion is to allow the city/criminal classes with Master Scan to have a HIGHER Scan value in the cities.  Desert class with Master Scan to have a HIGHER Scan value in the sands.

Thoughts?

Am I completely out of place here or just butthurt?   

[mansa]

...How high is your watch skill?

[Namino]

Seeing someone when you look = scan
Hearing someone sneaking into the area = listen

[Dracul]

"Master" level scan does not mean 100% mastered, you could still be at the base.

Stats and other factors also come into play.

It's not 'detect invisible' or magick but can certainly be useful.

[DesertT]

After 65 days played, my scan and listen are likely as high as they're going to get.

I'm not looking to detect invisible.

I'm looking to detect sneaks that open all of your containers and touch you stealing what they will at a whim.

[th3kaiser]

I'm wondering if the bonuses on hide gear are perhaps a bit too much these days with miscreants and stalkers running around. And I say that as someone who loves vanishing in the wilderness.

[ChuciPeppers]

I'm wondering if the bonuses on hide gear are perhaps a bit too much these days with miscreants and stalkers running around. And I say that as someone who loves vanishing in the wilderness.

This is probably the case. Having stealth abilities and scan ability max out at the same level and then giving stealth abilities the chance to have bonuses but none to scan means those stealth abilities will pretty regularly trump your scan at similar levels even if the guy with the scan is on alert and as prepared as they can make themselves. That's simple math. Though it does make the assumption that they top out at roughly the same level.

[Cabooze]

I believe the code functionality between scan/listen and sneak/hide needs to have the curtain lifted in regards to their nuances. Speaking as a player that is well aware of the skill functionality through experience, anything less than master scan is entirely useless if you're actually trying to use the skill with consistency.

Yes, with advanced scan, you can detect things with jman hide. If you're lucky, you can catch things with advanced hide. Or if you have Lirathu's luck, you can occasionally catch a master hide if the hider isn't wearing hide-gear AND they have a bad agility roll. Otherwise? You're stuck spamming look or 'watch shadow' 200+ times in order to catch a single whiff of a shadow.

As it currently functions? The coded sneak/hide function works better than magickal invisibility. And that's not to count if someone were to be magickally invisible AND sneak/hiding. The balance needs to be found somewhere- either by giving all 'advanced' scan users the ability to achieve 'master' scan through longetivity- or give agility the nerf it deserves. But then, if you nerf agility, strength needs to get nerfed. There's no good way to fix this issue aside from looking at the exact coded values for scan/hide and adjusting them until things start to make sense again.

If anything I've said requires being redacted due to being too informative, I'm done. We need to be able to have some sort of open discussion about these long-standing issues. If things cannot be discussed or fixed, there's no point.

[Brokkr]

I'm wondering if the bonuses on hide gear are perhaps a bit too much these days with miscreants and stalkers running around. And I say that as someone who loves vanishing in the wilderness.

I can definitively say that it is not hide gear.

[DesertT]

I'm wondering if the bonuses on hide gear are perhaps a bit too much these days with miscreants and stalkers running around. And I say that as someone who loves vanishing in the wilderness.

I can definitively say that it is not hide gear.

As someone with Master Scan and 65 days played, I don't feel at all that I have a 50/50 chance against someone with Master Sneak/Hide.

[mansa]

q. Should characters with master scan / master watch / master listen be able to 'catch' characters with master steal / master sneak / master hide?

Or

q. Should characters with max defense surpass, match, or lack against characters with max offense?



I'd like to put forth that by design, we should always lean towards offense in terms of coded conflict, rather than defense, and the advantage should be with those skills.

[DesertT]

q. Should characters with master scan / master watch / master listen be able to 'catch' characters with master steal / master sneak / master hide?

Or

q. Should characters with max defense surpass, match, or lack against characters with max offense?



I'd like to put forth that by design, we should always lean towards offense in terms of coded conflict, rather than defense, and the advantage should be with those skills.

It certainly does more than lean is my point.

I'm not asking for defense to always win or even mostly win.

I just think they should have a fighting chance.

So you snuck in, peeked (likely more than once), opened multiple containers, stole multiple items.

And I had zero chance?

Seems legit.  [/sarcasm]

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Maybe listen should add a small bonus to scan (or vice versa, whichever is higher) when both are active, rather than just being two separate checks.

[mansa]

q. Should characters with master scan / master watch / master listen be able to 'catch' characters with master steal / master sneak / master hide?

Or

q. Should characters with max defense surpass, match, or lack against characters with max offense?



I'd like to put forth that by design, we should always lean towards offense in terms of coded conflict, rather than defense, and the advantage should be with those skills.

It certainly does more than lean is my point.

I'm not asking for defense to always win or even mostly win.

I just think they should have a fighting chance.

So you snuck in, peeked (likely more than once), opened multiple containers, stole multiple items.

And I had zero chance?

Seems legit.  [/sarcasm]

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Watch
...Having the skill that is being watched improves your chances of noticing its use....

Watch is pretty amazing skill.  Once you get it pretty high, you start to be SUPER OBSERVANT.
You can even passively notice when other characters successfully [redacted], [redacted], [redacted] and [redacted].

[John]

Aren't elves really dextrous/agily and therefore have an ability score bonus for stealthy stuff? I assume most humans do not have an equivalent wisdom score and so therefore don't have an equivalent bonus to scan and listen?

As for watch: you need to be able to see the person at first to watch them. If they're high stealth-invisible you can't watch them to start with.

[Heade]

So, I'm curious. For those who have had a problem with Master Scan vs. Master Hide/Sneak, how many of you have prioritized wisdom on the character with master scan?

I ask because, most people with master hide/sneak have likely prioritized the associated stat to at least 2nd best, and I often hear people on the forums say that wisdom is their dump stat, or second to last. And since scan is one of the skills based on wisdom based on the help files, it would make sense that it doesn't function as well against people who prioritized the associated stat higher than the typical master scanner might.

[John]

So, I'm curious. For those who have had a problem with Master Scan vs. Master Hide/Sneak, how many of you have prioritized wisdom on the character with master scan?

I ask because, most people with master hide/sneak have likely prioritized the associated stat to at least 2nd best, and I often hear people on the forums say that wisdom is their dump stat, or second to last. And since scan is one of the skills based on wisdom based on the help files, it would make sense that it doesn't function as well against people who prioritized the associated stat higher than the typical master scanner might.

Do you have experience with high wisdom/max stealth characters able to consistently spot max stealth elves? Or are you just suggesting hypotheticals?

I personally dont in either direction. I do believe high Agility elves get a far bigger boost to stealth then max wisdom humans get to perception. But I cant say for sure unless staff wants to reveal more details about the code. So far their only contribution to the discussion is that stealth equipment isnt playing a significant role (likely because many people - or perhaps just me - dont actually know which equipment provides stealth boosts and for which scenarios the boost applies. So therefore many thieves could be wearing the wrong equipment. Or else their stealth is just so good they dont bother).

[Armaddict]

Aren't elves really dextrous/agily and therefore have an ability score bonus for stealthy stuff? I assume most humans do not have an equivalent wisdom score and so therefore don't have an equivalent bonus to scan and listen?

As for watch: you need to be able to see the person at first to watch them. If they're high stealth-invisible you can't watch them to start with.

This has been my experience but it's entirely anecdotal.  Humans tend to be picked out by scan  more consistently (that's not to say often), whereas elves can reach very godlike levels of stealth.  I've actually complained about this interaction before, when you can't fail sneak to save your life at advanced level, leaving you unable to branch skills in the old classes.  I have never had that problem with a human character.

However, what Mansa said about watch is correct.  No one really focuses on getting watch to higher levels...no, it doesn't work the same way as scan, but it -is- the thing that punishes a stealthy character the most for taking risks.  I used to try to explain this to members of the Arm with a couple elves I've played, and even try to help them start improving it, but for some reason, people take a hard pass on watch while grinding out all the skills that -won't- help them in this particular interaction.

However...the stealthy loses pretty much every other interaction, so meh.

[rinthrat]

Sleight of hand fails pretty often even at master, you had a chance from that alone if you closed containers.

[Harmless]

Buff search to be useable to smoke em out of their holes

Have additional tools available to give bonuses to scan. Maybe light sources.

Have maintaining a hiding spot for a long time take concentration or energy or other tradeoffs

[mansa]

..
Have additional tools available to give bonuses to scan. Maybe light sources.
..

the tall, muscular man says, in Sirihish:
   "I think I saw someone here!  Let's light 'em out!"

the tall, muscular man holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

the small, blue-eyed boy holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

the wide, bald dwarf holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

the lithe, tressily-tressed woman holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

>look room
This is the room description of the room you are in.  It's quite normal
to view, but otherwise it's the same as the room before it.  There are
things here and there and everywhere, but mostly it takes up space in
the prompt.
*a tall strange shadow*
*a huge strange shadow*
*a very tall strange shadow*



I like it.

[betweenford]

As scan is mostly useless for most stealth interactions, it'd be nice if having scan active gave a passive boost to the watch skill when active, proportional to your skill. Representing the fact that you're looking around for that sneak and thus slightly harder to steal/sleightOfHand from.
Watch is already a potent skill (even if people have tragically low watch skill most of the time), and someone with master in both should be an honestly more difficult target to stealth around when they're completely focused on finding a sneak.

[ChuciPeppers]

No one really focuses on getting watch to higher levels...no, it doesn't work the same way as scan, but it -is- the thing that punishes a stealthy character the most for taking risks.  I used to try to explain this to members of the Arm with a couple elves I've played, and even try to help them start improving it, but for some reason, people take a hard pass on watch

#morehemotes2020

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

..
Have additional tools available to give bonuses to scan. Maybe light sources.
..

the tall, muscular man says, in Sirihish:
   "I think I saw someone here!  Let's light 'em out!"

the tall, muscular man holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

the small, blue-eyed boy holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

the wide, bald dwarf holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

the lithe, tressily-tressed woman holds a leather wrapped bone torch.

>look room
This is the room description of the room you are in.  It's quite normal
to view, but otherwise it's the same as the room before it.  There are
things here and there and everywhere, but mostly it takes up space in
the prompt.
*a tall strange shadow*
*a huge strange shadow*
*a very tall strange shadow*



I like it.

I actually like this too. The bonus should be small as to disallow too much metagaming, but build cumulatively. That way, sneaks that don't want to be spotted can just sneak off when the first torches are lit - and those with torches lit are risking danger by occupying a hand that could be holding a weapon or shield. It also shouldn't work in rooms that are already dark / need the light to see, but rather in rooms that are lit as is, and that the light simply illuminates more of.

[Heade]

So, I'm curious. For those who have had a problem with Master Scan vs. Master Hide/Sneak, how many of you have prioritized wisdom on the character with master scan?

I ask because, most people with master hide/sneak have likely prioritized the associated stat to at least 2nd best, and I often hear people on the forums say that wisdom is their dump stat, or second to last. And since scan is one of the skills based on wisdom based on the help files, it would make sense that it doesn't function as well against people who prioritized the associated stat higher than the typical master scanner might.

Do you have experience with high wisdom/max stealth characters able to consistently spot max stealth elves? Or are you just suggesting hypotheticals?

I personally dont in either direction. I do believe high Agility elves get a far bigger boost to stealth then max wisdom humans get to perception. But I cant say for sure unless staff wants to reveal more details about the code. So far their only contribution to the discussion is that stealth equipment isnt playing a significant role (likely because many people - or perhaps just me - dont actually know which equipment provides stealth boosts and for which scenarios the boost applies. So therefore many thieves could be wearing the wrong equipment. Or else their stealth is just so good they dont bother).

I have some experience with max wisdom characters, yes. Also, other races get a bonus to wisdom, like elves. So people comparing humans to elves is sort of apples to oranges here. A max wisdom elf with master scan probably has a far better chance to see a max agility elf with master hide than a human does. I don't often see people complaining on the forums that equally skilled humans don't fare well in combat against muls, because people recognize that this is a racial difference that is to be expected. In this way, the best way to catch an elf is with your own elf, just like the best way to defeat a mul in the arena is with your own mul.

That said, a human with crap wisdom but master scan is doubly at a disadvantage because they didn't prioritize wisdom at all. And since you can spam look to try to find sneakies, if you had a high chance of seeing them with crap wisdom, it would sort of make sneakies pretty garbage since they lose out in pretty much all other non-stealth interactions with other types of characters, both socially and mechanically. I suspect, in combination with spam looking, a human with exceptional wisdom and max scan would see sneakies quite often. I had a human with master scan and was able to see sneakies quite a bit with "very good" wisdom.

The problem here is, using wisdom as a dump stat is incompatible with wanting your character to be able to find stealthies. If they are prioritized into being good at stealth, you would need to be prioritized into being good at anti-stealth. If your character isn't, there really isn't much to complain about, here. Since being caught just sneaking can often be a death sentence, I don't think a change needs to be made to the stealth system as it stands with regard to master scan.

The fact of the matter is, prioritizing wisdom could result in a character that could both reasonably find sneakies, AND easily defeat them in combat even with lower combat stats simply due to the advantage involved in being the aggressor. If someone really wanted to be able to hunt sneakies, they could have a character focused on doing that. They would be less effective against non-sneakies due to lower combat stats, but against other sneakies, they would be a monster. But I don't think most people are willing to make that sacrifice, being less effective against non-sneakies to be more effective against them. That is the real issue at hand, here, I think.

I've also said previously that I really believe the "soldier" class should get master scan. Right now, soldier seems very lackluster as a class, and I think it'd be a good combat oriented class to receive scan so that people could use it as the basis to create competent guards and/or bounty hunters to catch sneakies. Right now, I think miscreants or scouts are likely to be the best bounty hunter type characters, best able to locate and kill other sneakies.

I think it's interesting that most commenters in the thread seem to have ignored my comment regarding low wisdom and continued the discussion without even considering it as the source of the problem. I think people are likely just too entrenched in the idea that wisdom is a dump stat to give it some real consideration.

Maybe it would help if staff weighed in on this and let us know if this is likely the issue at hand. Brokkr?

[Giled]

I suppose the main problem I have here, aside from the fact that I'm a -terrible- sneaky, is the lack of interaction options. If I spam walk away from a raider, there's a good chance the raider is going to get another chance at me to correct my lack of rp, with a pair of bone swordz to the face. So I can either learn to rp through a raid, or try and run and face the consequences.

If I'm a sneaky, and I get caught out of stealth and spam walk away, there's not nearly a high of a chance of proper retribution. I understand the hesitance to just get attacked / spam HG guarded to death if in a lawful area against a crimcode immune PC, but when I'm playing a soldier or bounty hunter for that matter, or anything after a sneaky, I'd rather have a scene than either a spam flee / hide/ run, or just walking into a room and attacking someone because if I don't, they'll just run off and disappear, possibly forever, once they're skilled enough.

I understand I can watch someone, but 'disappearing' into thin air in the middle of a room is entirely too valid a means of escape. Threaten, watch, chase all exist, but taking the time to enter that command and the delay is enough for someone to just get away, not to mention that those commands disable scan, so if they do leave, you have to scan all over again to try and find them, and by that time, they're long gone.

That's just my opinion on the matter though.

[Bast]

I don't know if this is actually the case already or not but I feel like some areas should be a ton harder to sneak/hide in. Rooms with active penalties to hide/sneak.

The Arboretum for example..your all black ninja gear should be working against you in the well lite all white marble room filled with dozens of silk clad nobles..each of whom has a guard that's main job is keeping anyone their charge doesn't want to talk to well out of arms reach. To blend in upper crust places you should have to wear silks..and the fact that there are dozens of Vnpc body guards roaming around should inflict a heavy penalty on anyone trying to be sneaky in there.

I can think of few areas that should make it harder to stealth about and should carry a penalty based on Vnpc's, guard presence, lack of cover, good lighting ect...all of that should count against someone trying to hide and much like any good table top GM would apply a circumstance penalty to a PC in a table top game. I mean if you dressed like a murder hobo and smell like poop your going to stand out trying to slip past dozens of guards roaming the Dome at any given moment. I know I would toss a step penalty at any player that didn't take steps to make themselves blend in better. Stealth isn't all about hiding in corners and lurking in the rafters.

Along the same lines you should get a bonus sneaking in the Salarr compound if you are wearing a stolen Salarri uniform for example. I don't know how you would code for that..but thats  my two cents on the subject.

[Inks]

So, I'm curious. For those who have had a problem with Master Scan vs. Master Hide/Sneak, how many of you have prioritized wisdom on the character with master scan?

I ask because, most people with master hide/sneak have likely prioritized the associated stat to at least 2nd best, and I often hear people on the forums say that wisdom is their dump stat, or second to last. And since scan is one of the skills based on wisdom based on the help files, it would make sense that it doesn't function as well against people who prioritized the associated stat higher than the typical master scanner might.

Do you have experience with high wisdom/max stealth characters able to consistently spot max stealth elves? Or are you just suggesting hypotheticals?

I personally dont in either direction. I do believe high Agility elves get a far bigger boost to stealth then max wisdom humans get to perception. But I cant say for sure unless staff wants to reveal more details about the code. So far their only contribution to the discussion is that stealth equipment isnt playing a significant role (likely because many people - or perhaps just me - dont actually know which equipment provides stealth boosts and for which scenarios the boost applies. So therefore many thieves could be wearing the wrong equipment. Or else their stealth is just so good they dont bother).

I have seen high wis pcs that are almost impossible to hide from even on elf stalker/ misc. Yes they were mundane.

[X-D]

Much as I like uber stealth of doom....I believe the relationship between scan and hide should be looked at.

Back in the day if I had a low wis dwarf ranger with master scan he could spot uber elf assassin. Oh it was not a 100% thing...Not even 50% But it could be done. Today I find that a good wis human with master scan cannot spot pretty much anybody with master hide. In fact, I played a human PC with master hide and nobody at all could spot him, Not even legacy rangers even if they had done things to make it easier to spot him. It was amusing standing there listening to them complain that they could not see him even with this scan improving thing.

Don't get me wrong, I quite enjoyed that immunity...but it was OP.

[KittenLicks]

So, I'm curious. For those who have had a problem with Master Scan vs. Master Hide/Sneak, how many of you have prioritized wisdom on the character with master scan?

I ask because, most people with master hide/sneak have likely prioritized the associated stat to at least 2nd best, and I often hear people on the forums say that wisdom is their dump stat, or second to last. And since scan is one of the skills based on wisdom based on the help files, it would make sense that it doesn't function as well against people who prioritized the associated stat higher than the typical master scanner might.

Do you have experience with high wisdom/max stealth characters able to consistently spot max stealth elves? Or are you just suggesting hypotheticals?

I personally dont in either direction. I do believe high Agility elves get a far bigger boost to stealth then max wisdom humans get to perception. But I cant say for sure unless staff wants to reveal more details about the code. So far their only contribution to the discussion is that stealth equipment isnt playing a significant role (likely because many people - or perhaps just me - dont actually know which equipment provides stealth boosts and for which scenarios the boost applies. So therefore many thieves could be wearing the wrong equipment. Or else their stealth is just so good they dont bother).

I have seen high wis pcs that are almost impossible to hide from even on elf stalker/ misc. Yes they were mundane.

Anecdotally, I have had exceptional wisdom PCs with master scan and dismally failed to see any hiding elves ever. It's pretty weird that there's such polar opposite experiences.

[Heade]

Much as I like uber stealth of doom....I believe the relationship between scan and hide should be looked at.

Back in the day if I had a low wis dwarf ranger with master scan he could spot uber elf assassin. Oh it was not a 100% thing...Not even 50% But it could be done. Today I find that a good wis human with master scan cannot spot pretty much anybody with master hide. In fact, I played a human PC with master hide and nobody at all could spot him, Not even legacy rangers even if they had done things to make it easier to spot him. It was amusing standing there listening to them complain that they could not see him even with this scan improving thing.

Don't get me wrong, I quite enjoyed that immunity...but it was OP.

Remind me. Do you normally prioritize wisdom last if you prioritize at all? I recall you saying you don't prioritize stats, but if you did, where would you put wisdom?

[Armaddict]

In this way, the best way to catch an elf is with your own elf, just like the best way to defeat a mul in the arena is with your own mul.

Maaan, if people actually did this more (some people do do it) without everyone jumping on why it's wrong in society (it's not), elves would be way more popular.  I had to slave for days of playing time to get people to even consider it.

Sorry for the derail, that made me sigh happily.

[Brokkr]

Maybe it would help if staff weighed in on this and let us know if this is likely the issue at hand. Brokkr?

Without bonus's, the system works fairly well.  With bonuses, from a variety of things, the stacking can make it work much more to the favor of the hiding person.  Given the way scan works, quick fixes like capping would likely result in an uproar.

[DesertT]

Without bonus's, the system works fairly well.  With bonuses, from a variety of things, the stacking can make it work much more to the favor of the hiding person.  Given the way scan works, quick fixes like capping would likely result in an uproar.

Not looking for a quick fix.

Would just like it to be looked into.

Again, at least one peek, probably more per opened container, multiple opened containers, multiple steals.... not one hint.

[kahuna]

An easy and fairly quick solution would be making using the no_hide room flag on more rooms where it's obvious hiding there would be almost impossible. Most taverns should be no_hide, it's a big open room with tables like a restaurant where the hell are you hiding under someones table? Obviously the streets are a different story. But apartment entrances, rooms that are like just Hallways with torches lining it would have literally no where to hide but the code allows you to hide there. It's jarring and I understand why scanners would want a buff but I think this is a better solution because I'm typically always in favor in making it harder to find someone than easier.

[Brokkr]

Taverns are also crowded, which is sort of the opposite of no_hide.

[Harmless]

yeah, i've long been a proponent that hiding probably means in city settings just not being suspicious at all. It's akin to disguise or distract or lying/deceipt. You're just a vnPC.

[Harmless]

imms, if you guys do decide to put no_hide on more rooms around the gameworld, which I am fine with, maybe we need:


nosave_vis: Not intentionally breaking hidden status by following.

That way if you're stalking someone to try and kill them and they are walking into an area you know you won't stay hidden in, you won't follow them if on.