Spice Expiration: Do the Pros Outweigh the Cons?

[Strongheart]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55326.0.html

^ topic carried over from an unrelated thread ^

[mansa]

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Spice


https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1001232/topicseen.html#msg1001232

November 23rd, 2017 (Thursday)
-Spice now decays.
  -On the ground - fastest
  -Inventory/Equipped - slower
  -In a container - slower, yet
  -In a spice specific container - slowest
  -On a logged out character - does not age
  -On an NPC merchant - does not age
-Spice items will have updated sdescs and keywords as they decay, similar to food decay.
-Fully decayed spice cannot be sold/shaved/sniffed/used with make.
-Fully decayed spice have no coded use and will 'crumble to dust' after 16 IC days.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1021348/topicseen.html#msg1021348

-Slowed down spice aging at Akariel's request.
-Changed how spice ages at Akariel's request
  -Ages fastest on ground, in inventory, when equipped
  -Ages slower when on furniture or in containers
  -Ages slowest when in a spice kit

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1001595.html#msg1001595

If your spice is rotting within 24 hours, you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and unfortunately that's what you get. Unrefined, grain forms of spice will not last excessively long. And yes, this may cause a problem with the Spice Buyer NPC - Which is why Nessalin removed the 50 grain minimum to sell to him. You no longer need to wait to have 50 spices in your pouch to sell.

A single grain of spice on the floor will last, on average, 24 RL hours. If you put it in a standard backpack it should last 42.75 RL days, on average. If you are noticing a discrepancy with that please send in a request to let us know.

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is almost half a year. The larger the amount of spice, the slower it decays. A brick of spice, for instance, can last 378 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is over a RL year.

If you are noticing inconsistencies, it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty and needs to be looked into. Please send in a bug request so we can take a look into it.

Let's put some context here.

Spice is what the major merchant house Kurac is known for.  (http://armageddon.org/help/view/House%20Kurac)
It is an item that has some scarcity to it, in regards to the story of ArmageddonMUD.
Spice has coded effects on characters in the game.  You could consider it a buff, like an MMORPG term

It was in 2017 when spice code was implemented to make it degrade, similar to the food code implemented earlier than that.

What do we know about the spice aging code?
When it first launched, it was too quick, and it was adjusted.  (This means that it can be adjusted again, if the playerbase thinks so)
It degrades at different speeds:

-On the ground - fastest
  -Inventory/Equipped - slower
  -In a container - slower, yet
  -In a spice specific container - slowest

If it's in a large package (knot, brick, etc), it degrades even slower.


Question #1:
Are you keeping the spice in a spice container?

Question #2:
Are you buying it in large quantities, aka Knot, Brick?

Question #3:
After doing so, are the items degrading too quickly?

[rinthrat]

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container.

Can anyone confirm that this is working as intended and takes this long? Because I am pretty sure I have had pinches of spice  in a container degrade within RL days earlier this year. However, I haven't had regular access to spice, and I can't remember if the container was closed, or if this was a container meant for spice. I also have no way to know how old that spice was when it reached my PC - for all I know it was sitting around somewhere out in the open for RL months before I got it.

[mansa]

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container.

Can anyone confirm that this is working as intended and takes this long? Because I am pretty sure I have had pinches of spice  in a container degrade within RL days earlier this year. However, I haven't had regular access to spice, and I can't remember if the container was closed, or if this was a container meant for spice. I also have no way to know how old that spice was when it reached my PC - for all I know it was sitting around somewhere out in the open for RL months before I got it.

I can confirm having a knot of spice last for longer than 3 RL months.

[valeria]

It doesn't age if it's in your possession and you log out, which might be why your knot lasted so long. It seems to go way too fast, otherwise, though generally I like that it ages.

[Alesan]

I could swear all the spice I've ever carried on my person has degraded while I'm logged out.

[X-D]

I have had kurac purchased knots decay in a spice container in less then two weeks...within the last year and a half so...I no longer bother with spice.

[X-D]

I would like to know WHY it ages. More the OOC reason then IC.

I mean, it is not an item I have ever hoarded for no reason. And I have never found spice hoards. Like poisons or food.

[Harmless]

When there are tweak suggestions like these, I usually post them as an IDEA or BUG command in game.
I have already voted my opinion on the matter of spice aging, I think, but to be sure I will just go ahead and do it again.

[Harmless]

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container.

Can anyone confirm that this is working as intended and takes this long? Because I am pretty sure I have had pinches of spice  in a container degrade within RL days earlier this year. However, I haven't had regular access to spice, and I can't remember if the container was closed, or if this was a container meant for spice. I also have no way to know how old that spice was when it reached my PC - for all I know it was sitting around somewhere out in the open for RL months before I got it.

Oh wow, NOOOO no it doesn't last that long at all. This is now officially a bug and I have bugged it.

[Harmless]

I have had kurac purchased knots decay in a spice container in less then two weeks...within the last year and a half so...I no longer bother with spice.

this

[rinthrat]

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container.

Can anyone confirm that this is working as intended and takes this long? Because I am pretty sure I have had pinches of spice  in a container degrade within RL days earlier this year. However, I haven't had regular access to spice, and I can't remember if the container was closed, or if this was a container meant for spice. I also have no way to know how old that spice was when it reached my PC - for all I know it was sitting around somewhere out in the open for RL months before I got it.

Oh wow, NOOOO no it doesn't last that long at all. This is now officially a bug and I have bugged it.

IG or via the request tool?

[John]

I have had kurac purchased knots decay in a spice container in less then two weeks...within the last year and a half so...I no longer bother with spice.

My experience with spice about 6 month ago (largely kept indoors and in a container) is that it degraded within a couple of RL days. I'd like to bother with spice, but given the difficulty in obtaining it from PCs  And the fact it will only last a few RL days it just isn't worth it as chances are it will expire before you use it.

As someone who loves the idea of getting addicted to spice, it just isn't feasible with the current code. I get it: stockpiling = degrade. But the implementation of it with food and spice seems to have been to devalue it. Hunters give away food now, because it will rot before it can be sold or used. Spice = why bother for much of the PC population.

I think the rotting code needs to be massively decreased in its aggressiveness. Because while the food might be realistic (spice has no real life equivalent so staff can justify whatever with it), playability wise it's a mess.

The only thing I think it is good for is poison.

[LindseyBalboa]

I love spice. I would like to see it degrade much slower, or not at all. If someone is hoarding spice, at least they bought it, and at least someone might be using it - or there's the RP of being potentially robbed for your stash. I am of the opinion that the more people that eventually have access to spice, illegally especially, the better.

[ShaLeah]

Sweet-Di Kurac got a brick of that super uber meca ukulele spice for that infamous raider dorf. It disintegrated in a kuraci built spice crate especially created to house spice.

I've had the same bud of pot for YEARS and while dryer than it was when I got it, it still smokes just fine.  I've also found bags of blow long forgotten and snorted them just fine too. Pills too, yearrrrs they keep their potency.

The spice decay code isn't realistic at all.  Not even a little bit.

[Delirium]

What if grains decayed at the rate a brick does currently, but refined spice would take RL years to decay?

I'm in the "don't slap timers on my spice" camp but maybe that can be a compromise that fills the original intent of the change.

[rinthrat]

What if grains decayed at the rate a brick does currently, but refined spice would take RL years to decay?

I'm in the "don't slap timers on my spice" camp but maybe that can be a compromise that fills the original intent of the change.

After reading replies in this thread I am getting the impression that spice is debating at a much faster rate than ever intended by staff, and is simply bugged.

[Dracul]

I agree that the spice rate decay is something that quickly removes spice items from the game and plots, it's a real shame how it affects it.

I would love to see it removed or seriously tweaked. Maybe extended to a very long time, but so that spice -eventually- decays rather than being found 5 characters later.

[Dar]

Theoretically. The spice decay was introduced to create demand.

There were instances when organizations would buy a bunch of warspice (let's say) and have it in storage for when it's needed for decades. And since everyone life/die/life/die/live/die, there would be instances where no organization would buy warspices because they had a surplus of them purchased by a different generation of the same organization 5 years ago.

At the same time. The way the spice is right now. I simply choose not to bother with it. The only time I ever buy spice these days is to establish a connection with the spice sellers, or if I have a client already waiting for it. The rate at which it decays invalidated it for me. That simple.

[Dresan]

Theoretically. The spice decay was introduced to create demand.

While I think aging has helped with spice stockpiling, I don't think it has increased demand.

Frankly the thing what would increase demand is just to make it last longer, thus more convenient to take in secret before missions or operations. The quality of spice Kurac sells should vary(along with its price), some higher quality of spice should have effects that can last two or so IC days.

The idea that you can just take more if the high comes down is flawed, it just not convenient (tempting) to take when you know its going to run out before your crew or group even leaves the gates.

[mansa]

I like the concept.  It creates demand by having it degrade, and removes people inheriting bricks and bricks of spice.


I think the timers could be adjusted - but I've seen some items last super long.

If we assume it's 4x the quantity in the next tier:

	Grain	Pinch	Knot	Thal-Knot	Brick
Grain	1	4	16	64	256
Pinch	1/4	1	4	16	64
Knot	1/16	1/4	1	4	16
Thal-Knot	1/64	1/16	1/4	1	4
Brick	1/256	1/64	1/16	1/4	1

q. Should there be a linear timer for spice degradation?  aka If you have a knot, it degrades at 1/4 the time as a pinch, and 1/16 the time as a grain?
q. What part of spice is degrading too quickly?   The grains?  Pinches?  Thal-knots?

I could see an exponential decay from Brick downwards, so that a brick decays at 100 days, a thal-knot decays at 50 days (rather than 25 days), a knot decays at 25 days (rather than 12.5 days), a pinch decays at 12.5 days (rather than 6.75), and so on...  we "punish" the rich for buying a brick..and it spoils faster if it's still in a large quantity, but still spoils slower in total.

[X-D]

Dresan is right.

If you are going to make it so there is less around to increase demand then the usefulness would have to be increased per dose...Or maybe just say effects or duration instead of usefulness. With it not lasting it is even hard to get addicted because you cannot keep a supply or effect long enough.

As it sits you just end up with people not bothering. Oh sure they use some small amount while in Luirs, but have no reason to get it any other time or to buy extra.

My last PC was the last one to deal with spice and that was VERY early on in his life. Buy spice in Luirs, put in spice pouch inside another container and keep on person. A type he WOULD likely need sometime in the next RL month on his travels. Two weeks go by and come to situation where it would make life a bit easier, not a true need but easier. Get pouch out and Well, no go on the spice. So instead of a hey, that was handy, time to get more it was, Hey what a waste of money, not doing that again.

Which of course moves forward to all future PCs.

[X-D]

Mansa.

I think Thal-knots and bricks should not degrade at all. This is a large enough amount that the normal PC is not buying it and if they are, they are using it, and since you cannot use it without making it smaller, IE into amounts that degrade...sort of pointless to have them degrade. Know what I mean?

Next, And this is most important. ALL sizes should take a VERY long time to degrade. I mean a Pinch should take a RL year at the very least.

Reasoning is, The PC should not have to worry much about his/her investment going poof. A majority of PCs I think live less then a RL year, so it would not impact a single PC that hard.

Next, make the degrading static, IE if not held on a PC all spice (below Thal-knot) degrades at the same rate no matter what container it is in. This solves a few other issues but keeps the reason for spice degrading in place. Your clan wants to stock pile spice you have to buy in bricks or Thal-knots. Increase the price accordingly. In fact, that would be a good selling point.

Lastly, Make it so that Bricks can only be broken into Thal-knots, No shaving etc, and Thal-knots can only be broken into knots.

It has been years since I had  a PC dealing in that large of amounts, I totally don't remember what breaks into what

[Jihelu]

I think I had a knot of spice go bad after an ig month or two

It seemed ridiculous, I never bought spice again on that character. This includes me having a place to keep it that is /supposed/ to make it last longer

I'm wondering how spice even makes it to Luirs lol.

[Dar]

Yeah. For spice to be such a major hassle, it's effects or/and duration needs to be increased.

At the end, with the character that bought spice, the only spice that was actually effectively used was recreational. Tho and tekh.

Warspices are so situational that after getting burnt by the decay rate, I never bothered to buy them again.

[only_plays_tribals]

...Buy spice in Luirs, put in spice pouch inside another container and keep on person. A type he WOULD likely need sometime in the next RL month on his travels. Two weeks go by and come to situation where it would make life a bit easier, not a true need but easier. Get pouch out and Well, no go on the spice. So instead of a hey, that was handy, time to get more it was, Hey what a waste of money, not doing that again.

This precisely mirrors my experience with the spice decay upon returning.

[John]

I like the concept.  It creates demand by having it degrade, and removes people inheriting bricks and bricks of spice.


I think the timers could be adjusted - but I've seen some items last super long.

If we assume it's 4x the quantity in the next tier:

	Grain	Pinch	Knot	Thal-Knot	Brick
Grain	1	4	16	64	256
Pinch	1/4	1	4	16	64
Knot	1/16	1/4	1	4	16
Thal-Knot	1/64	1/16	1/4	1	4
Brick	1/256	1/64	1/16	1/4	1

q. Should there be a linear timer for spice degradation?  aka If you have a knot, it degrades at 1/4 the time as a pinch, and 1/16 the time as a grain?
q. What part of spice is degrading too quickly?   The grains?  Pinches?  Thal-knots?

I could see an exponential decay from Brick downwards, so that a brick decays at 100 days, a thal-knot decays at 50 days (rather than 25 days), a knot decays at 25 days (rather than 12.5 days), a pinch decays at 12.5 days (rather than 6.75), and so on...  we "punish" the rich for buying a brick..and it spoils faster if it's still in a large quantity, but still spoils slower in total.

the current implementation js a failure at creating demand. I would argue anything that degrades quicker then 3 months (in a container in an indoor room) is too quick. And by that I mean 2160 hours. Yes, I realise that is 90 days played if someone kept it on their person at all times. But if someone does keep it on their person, chances are they will use it or sell it. It's simply too high risk in Allanak to carry all the time.

To be honest though, that's so much hassle what's the point. If CLANS are stockpiling, get VNPC clannies to use it all up. Degrading spice js a sledgehammer to a small problem. It has made the problem worse, not better.

[X-D]

Another point.

I like the concept.  It creates demand by having it degrade, and removes people inheriting bricks and bricks of spice.

It does not create demand...Know why? Because nobody actually NEEDS spice. Spice has never had a really high demand, and not because people had chests full of it laying around but because it has relatively small and limited effect, costs are high for that effect and the current main city of the world does not allow it anyway.

Makes me think the actual intent was to make it go away...if so, quite effective there.

[tapas]

Recently my PCs havn't had any trouble storing or keeping spice. For months or even years.

[Evilone]

I haven't had much experience with spice since Tuluk so I'm a bit out touch with how it decays, but I think it should exist, but from the general view it needs much longer timers. I'd also be in favour of increasing it's effects - Kurac only produced spice maybe? So buying from the main source makes it that little more worth while. Create that real demand.