all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?

[Brokkr]

Brokkr, you want to make it sound like bash is this miracle solution that noone has ever thought of. It just isn't. If it was, this forum would have five threads per year talking about how people use the bash skill to render their victims helpless. I'm not even saying I want that to be reality, but I maintain that it most certainly isn't, and I don't like being gaslighted with "just use bash lulz." Time and time again, your answer to coded concerns is something that we all know just doesn't work, but you persist in trying to hoodwink players who have tried these things a hundred times and found them lacking.

My perspective is different.  I did not mention bash because I thought it was a "miracle solution".  I mentioned it because it is one tool in the toolkit and that tool had not been mentioned.  As I wrote, I've effectively used bash (and had it used against me) so I was wondering as to why it wasn't mentioned.

I'm not asking as someone trying to gaslight you into believe bash is "The Answer!" but as someone who has been behind changes to bash already, over the last year or so.

[Riev]

Bash vs Backstab

Backstab causes a high amount of lag/delay after using.
Backstab, on a success, deals instant damage.
Backstab, on a success against an unarmed opponent, deals instant damage plus a free hit.
Backstab, on a failure, does no damage.

Bash causes a small amount of lag/delay after using.
Bash, on a success, deals damage similar to kick, and causes the target to be in a sitting position.
Bash, on a fail, causes you to be in a similar sitting position.

Backstab skill goes up quickly, on a single fail.
Anecdotally, bash requires more fails in order to pass the check for a skill-up.
Backstab can be mastered in a 3-5d played with proper practice.
Bash, in my experience, takes much longer and comes with more inherent risk in training.

So yes, Bash is a tool that could be used. But the meta is Burst Damage to prevent fleeing, which even if it fails, causes damage and leaves behind trails that can help you track down your prey.
Bash, if it fails, gives them an easy out, and an ability to run before you've even done a single point of damage.
As a tool to prevent fleeing, bash is less useful in its utility. Backstab and/or sap are, frankly, more reliable if death is your goal.

[Narf]

Bash vs Backstab

Backstab causes a high amount of lag/delay after using.
Backstab, on a success, deals instant damage.
Backstab, on a success against an unarmed opponent, deals instant damage plus a free hit.
Backstab, on a failure, does no damage.

Bash causes a small amount of lag/delay after using.
Bash, on a success, deals damage similar to kick, and causes the target to be in a sitting position.
Bash, on a fail, causes you to be in a similar sitting position.

Backstab skill goes up quickly, on a single fail.
Anecdotally, bash requires more fails in order to pass the check for a skill-up.
Backstab can be mastered in a 3-5d played with proper practice.
Bash, in my experience, takes much longer and comes with more inherent risk in training.

So yes, Bash is a tool that could be used. But the meta is Burst Damage to prevent fleeing, which even if it fails, causes damage and leaves behind trails that can help you track down your prey.
Bash, if it fails, gives them an easy out, and an ability to run before you've even done a single point of damage.
As a tool to prevent fleeing, bash is less useful in its utility. Backstab and/or sap are, frankly, more reliable if death is your goal.

One thing you didn't take into account is that characters that can master bash will be overall better at killing that characters that can master backstab. With this in mind, bash should be at least a little inferior to backstab as the problems with bash are compensated for with other aspects of the character's skill sheet.

The problem is that a character with master backstab that doesn't kill their opponent is more likely to flat out lose the ensuing fight.

[kahuna]

Backstab skill goes up quickly, on a single fail.
Anecdotally, bash requires more fails in order to pass the check for a skill-up.
Backstab can be mastered in a 3-5d played with proper practice.
Bash, in my experience, takes much longer and comes with more inherent risk in training.

They fixed this. Bash goes up much quicker now. I've tested it with recent PCs.

[Brokkr]

Bash vs Backstab

Backstab causes a high amount of lag/delay after using.
Backstab, on a success, deals instant damage.
Backstab, on a success against an unarmed opponent, deals instant damage plus a free hit.
Backstab, on a failure, does no damage.

Bash causes a small amount of lag/delay after using.
Bash, on a success, deals damage similar to kick, and causes the target to be in a sitting position.
Bash, on a fail, causes you to be in a similar sitting position.

Backstab skill goes up quickly, on a single fail.
Anecdotally, bash requires more fails in order to pass the check for a skill-up.
Backstab can be mastered in a 3-5d played with proper practice.
Bash, in my experience, takes much longer and comes with more inherent risk in training.

So yes, Bash is a tool that could be used. But the meta is Burst Damage to prevent fleeing, which even if it fails, causes damage and leaves behind trails that can help you track down your prey.
Bash, if it fails, gives them an easy out, and an ability to run before you've even done a single point of damage.
As a tool to prevent fleeing, bash is less useful in its utility. Backstab and/or sap are, frankly, more reliable if death is your goal.

What I see?

You are stuck in one scenario.

If I was an enforcer and had the option of backstab or bash in a 1v1 situation, yes, if I thought I was hidden and they didn't know I was there, I would backstab them first in nearly all cases.

However, if we were hunting each other and I thought they might be starting their backstab?  I would bash.  Since it is an instant command so it would either put them into a wait state and disable their ability to backstab or it would put me on the ground, but in combat, and so still disable their backstab.

However, if it was a 3v1 situation, I would bash.

However, if I was already in combat, I would bash (since flee+backstab is twinky as hell).

However, if they missed their backstab on me, I would wait until I thought their wait state was about to come up, and then I would bash them.

You really need to consider all scenarios, not just the alpha strike.

[Namino]

I got backstabbed from the front three times in open combat by an assassin fleeing, running back in, and stabbing again over and over due to me being in skill delay due to (master) bash missing, a scenario that was openly admitted to being unintended and wrong in the resultant requests. So the argument that these things are being balanced appropriately doesn't hit the mark with me. I think most of these things were implemented years ago and now that testing has demonstrated glaring issues with them that produced the current meta, they're too far gone to fix easily. So its easier to privately admit that they're not working as intended while publicly saying it's all as intended.

Its not.

You guys wanna see this log of a master sap?

The Main Bazaar [NESW]
   The clamor, tumult, and melange of smells that make up the bewildering
chaos of Allanak's main bazaar fill the air.  Crowds jostle each other on
every side, in a constant jumble of shouts, arguments, and conversations.
Merchants from both Allanak and afar trade goods and services, throughout
the day and night.  Tents and stalls are scattered throughout the bazaar,
vendors and beggars vying fiercely for prime spots.  The dry air is filled
with the red dust kicked up into the air by the constant movement of the
crowds, as well as the mingled smell of cooking foods, perfumes, spilled
wines and attars, the reek of tanning and dyeing vats, and unwashed bodies
to every side.
A small stand has been erected here, with small fruits hanging off it.
The chestnut-haired, elderly woman sits here, cutting some cloth.

89/89, 108/115, 86/86, walking, early afternoon>  °
89/89, 108/115, 86/86, walking, early afternoon>  Your vision goes black.
                                ___                               
                              /\__//~-                        -~\
                             (~)       ~- ~-                  -~ -~   
                            (~)           ~- ~-            -~ /-~     
Welcome to Armageddon!     (~)              `~- ~======--~~ ~ 

That's it. That's the whole log.

But tell me again how we balance things to avoid instant win buttons.

[Brokkr]

But tell me again how we balance things to avoid instant win buttons.

I thought it would be obvious that I meant we are trying to avoid implementing instant win buttons.  Not that we are going back and removing the ones that already exist, implemented by previous combinations of staff.  By "we" I mean current combination of staff, not previous ones.

Given the snark, apparently that wasn't obvious.

[Asanadas]

Nice log, Namino. You want to put that in the Submissions forum?

It would take little effort to put in a check on the backstab verb to prevent these "flee, return, backstab" situations. Calling it twinky and stigmatizing it doesn't fix the problem. Coding a solution fixes the problem.

[kahuna]

Namino brings up a fair point. I've heard tales of 120+ stun dwarves being sapped by elves into 0 stun. I mean honestly if you're wearing a helmet it should just make you immune to sap or at least reduce the stun damage by 80% or something. It's ridiculous that someone could sap 120 stun when someone has a helmet on.

[Hauwke]

Namino brings up a fair point. I've heard tales of 120+ stun dwarves being sapped by elves into 0 stun. I mean honestly if you're wearing a helmet it should just make you immune to sap or at least reduce the stun damage by 80% or something. It's ridiculous that someone could sap 120 stun when someone has a helmet on.

I mean, sapping isn't just whacking a dude on the head.

Its hitting them in such a way that their brain moves and they get a concussion. No helmet is going to protect from that.

Even real life helmets don't prevent concussive force being applied to them. After helmets were implemented in military uses to protect from gunfire the rate of concussions sky rocketed.

[Asanadas]

Hauwke, your revolutionary thesis on kinesiology of the Natural World doesn't justify bad game design. If we're doing away with one hit kills, then these things should be rebalanced. If we're not doing away with one hit kills, why cut sorcerers and elementalists into pieces? Let's have a little reliability in our design standards. Is that too much to ask?

[Hauwke]

Im not against changing it, and honestly if Sap can kill with HP damage that needs changing. But there needs to be ways if quickly and effectively taking someone out besides perraine.

[Brokkr]

The log is either not of sap, or there was scroll after the vision goes black thing that got eaten.  You can't mantis head someone with that many hps with just sap (although the follow on attacks certainly can).

[Namino]

Im not against changing it, and honestly if Sap can kill with HP damage that needs changing. But there needs to be ways if quickly and effectively taking someone out besides perraine.

There does not need to be ways to quickly and effectively taking someone out, including perraine, which also should be changed, especially if you're a proponent of realism -- neurotoxins paralyse over time, not instantly.

Rather than supercharging offensive abilities to OHKO people, we should be addressing the reason why people feel that OHKOs are necessary, which has already been referenced in this thread: flee.

If we do what was originally suggested, and stop flee from being a Hanna-Barbara style instant run into the middle-distance as bongos play, then combat wouldn't have to rely on OHKOs. If we do that, we don't need such an alpha-strike centric meta. Right now, the meta relies on alpha-striking because frequently the alpha-strike is the only strike you get before your target goes Kentucky (or hits you with their own OHKO). If we do away with these 'instant fight enders', both offensive (perraine, 100% HP sap, ect) and defensive (spam instaflee without endlag), then you get to swing more than once on your target and the need for alpha-cheese is alleviated.

Edit: That log is unedited. It could have been a backstab, in which case, same problem. It's sort of hard to verify when it's an instant kick to menu moment. I've definitely been hit for over 90 HP in a single pump from a backstab.

120/120hp 196/218mv 118/118 | running, manageable, unarmed | dusk on Barani

Someone suddenly plants their long in the middle of your back! - UNGH!
The <snip> solidly stabs your body.
The <snip> stabs at you, but you dodge out of the way.

25/120hp 196/218mv 21/118 | running, manageable, unarmed | dusk on Barani

They got one of the inline hits, but yeah.

95 damage in a single pump. 98 stun damage.

You can continue trying to defend these really bad design decisions as long as you want, Brokkr. But the writing is on the wall. Combat in this game is cheesed to the nines and horribly unergonomic, due to poor design decisions made years ago. You can either throw up your hands as a dev and say "it's janky, but we like it" or alternatively overhaul the system to make a better game.

But you can't sit here and say it is well made.

Because your audience actually plays this game, knows better, and keeps receipts.

[RogueGunslinger]

Basically, removing one hit kills/saps/backstabs wouldn't be the worst thing if flee was also heavily nerfed.

[Heade]

I don't think there is a problem with backstab as it is. We need to bear in mind that the people who have it lose in virtually all other situations, both mechanically and (usually) socially to other classes. The alpha strike is all they have, which means they basically have to both catch you alone and be undetected with you in one place long enough for the pre-strike delay to count down.

On one end of the spectrum, you have a skill which, when maxxed, can help you to kill -ALMOST- any other SINGLE character class in the game if you catch them by surprise.

On the other end of the spectrum, a very skilled fighter can kill 5 other PCs simultaneously if they actually try to fight him/her.

Each one can essentially counter the other one given the situation fits their set of skills. If a fighter sees an infiltrator, he can bash him before backstab delay finishes, and if each are maxxed in their class skills, the fighter will mop the floor with the infiltrator. And Brokkr & co. has already indirectly nerfed backstab by ensuring that no one who can master backstab also has master stealth, so there is always the chance that you see them coming, even if you don't have scan at all.

I personally think the infiltrator class is in a particularly bad place precisely because of that situation, but I won't dredge up that argument here.

I think playstyles are an issue here, and people who aren't attracted to the assassin playstyle just don't like the idea of the OHK. But that is sort of the entire identity of the assassin playstyle. They're heavily advantaged in a single, very narrow combat situation in which they're highly prepared, but they lose to other classes in virtually all others. Since failure often means death for such a character, I don't think they should be worse at the one thing they can currently excel at.

I'd also like to point to a place earlier in this thread, where we talked about situations where such assassins shouldn't be able to do what they're currently able to do, like shadowing people into their apartments. It shouldn't work because of the way people use doors. If this wasn't such an issue, then I don't think people would have as much of a problem with the backstab skill itself, because it would require far more planning and patience to use effectively, by requiring you to plan ahead a way to get someone alone in order to backstab them.

[Raptor_Dan]

I think Heade makes some very convincing points here.

[ChuciPeppers]

I'd also like to point to a place earlier in this thread, where we talked about situations where such assassins shouldn't be able to do what they're currently able to do, like shadowing people into their apartments. It shouldn't work because of the way people use doors. If this wasn't such an issue, then I don't think people would have as much of a problem with the backstab skill itself, because it would require far more planning and patience to use effectively, by requiring you to plan ahead a way to get someone alone in order to backstab them.

I way agree here. I would have no issue whatsoever with backstab being as nasty as you wanna be if there wasn't a tendency by people who have the skill to tail people into their apartment, steal their key once the door is locked and then ohk you without even the courtesy of an emote - and I mean, you could literally command stack the emote with the command so it doesn't take any extra time, and the person is literally totally trapped with no means of escape. wtf is this lack?

And when I say that, I don't mean it to target any one specific person, or because anything relevant has been a personal issue for me any time recently. Afaik the last time I was pked was 2017 or before, even, so this is all just sort of a general assessment here.

[Heade]

Yeah, I'm with you there. The entire shadowing into an apartment, pickpocketing the key they literally just used from their hand the moment they lock the door without being noticed, followed by a backstab is super cheese and the mechanics of the game shouldn't allow it. I've said this many times before, and we've had extensive discussions about it in this thread.

Were this not the case, I don't think people would have as much problem with backstab being as it is.

[Rokal]

tbh i think all of this is a mindset issue.

Death happens in arm, thats true.

But going for the kill in cheesy ways, backstab, poison, however it is..in the end its the mindset of the players.

it stems from the fear of death of your own character, IMo, becuase if someone escapes..

There will be a manhunt, thats the general fear. 

People fear dying because they have to put so much time and work into their character.

That makes sense, it really does, it takes a lot of time to build up a character.

When someone makes a move like that, and botches it, they litereally become public enemy number one because there's just not enough 'villains' to tackle or worry about.

So, people go for nuclear options, choosing the most guaranteed way to eliminate risk of being found out. Theres IC ways of doing this, then there are gamey ways of doing this, which..are really not IC at all - its not storytelling at all, imo.

its a fear of losing what one has worked for, its a gamer's perspective of "If I don't win this, its game over."

"If I lose this, i could die, and all my work will be lost."

Perhaps the perspective we should look at, is infact that. People put a lot of time into their characters, and losing a character sucks. This fear of losing a character to death can lead to  a lot of gamey, unfun, and uninteresting interactions.


I've had the most fun on various RP platforms knowing I could pursue actions that are risky, and could get my char killed, and even if they did die, that I wont need litereal months of time to be 'capable' again.

Because on those RPs, they recognize character sacrifice, they recognize the effort put forth into a character.

I haven't been active in Arm, but i've read a lot of this topics main points made by the OP, and..

This isn't something game mechanics changes can fix.

its about promoting a constructive mindset within the game, where people can afford to fail. Where people can do something risky, or dangerous, without taking many layers of measured security, or 'grimey' tactics, as one could call them.

Roleplaying is a co-operative experience. Lets say someone attempts a hit on another player, they botch it.

Perhaps the victim player was too shocked by the intensity of the moment to really recongize anything of who they were.

its up to the players to let a story keep flowing, conflict and the like to continue.

Choosing the nuclear option each time doesn't do that, it in fact can lessen the intrigue and story presented in a RP.

I think the major thing we should look at, is this concept of the fear of failing, and death within armageddon.

Cause thats all that it sounds like to me.

A character should be able to celebrate and enjoy their failures as much as they should their successes.

The failures are what make a character more interesting.

On arm, it seems like the current climate is. "You cannot afford to fail when conflicting with other players. Ever."

i guess im simply just trying to say:

Think of what would be COOL for the story. Think of what could be fun. Think of what could be interesting. Build conflict through time and intrigue, and when someone dies, actually make it something worth remembering. People RP for the stories, after all. Even if two Players characters are enemies, the two players involved are effectively co-operating to make a story.

Armageddon's mechanics allow us a vehicle to drive it, but at the end of the day, the player has a choice on how far to take mechanics.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

So I guess one hit kills and other "janky" combat will still exist in the game for the foreseeable future, right?

This is just a problem of how the one hit kills are used? For example, seemingly randomly and/or without RP?

[Riev]

Literal one-hit kills do not happen often. Those are the "I walked into the shop, and suddenly there was a mantis-head and I got no prompt" and are indeed quite rare.

What people do not like is that PvP is not a long, drawn out process by code. The longer a PvP engagement goes on, the easier it may be to simply flee, or otherwise run away. While some consider the "enemy who gets away" trope to be fun, others do not enjoy the harassment and IG consequences of 'failure'. So a lot of PvP errs towards burst damage, catching people unaware, and the like. Because of this, often, a PK does not involve emotes or thinks or feels beyond "Who is that? They're on MY TURF?" most to 'cover the RP portion of things'.

So it is a problem with how they are used, but also with the meta-gaming of killing another PC. There are a host of IC and OOC consequences for failure.

[Halcyon]

I'm surprised the realism players havent voted more on this issue.   

I agree there is a lack of ways to hurt another character at times, other than death.  Yet, once a pc gets to the point of killing another pc, shouldnt effectiveness matter?   Contract hits arent taken out with a 40% chance of success, and tactically "rocket launcher tag" is always stupid.  If you cannot afford to take a counterstroke, dont let the other guy survive to hire a murderer or report their problem to law enforcement.

I dont think Arm has a social "dueling" culture.   If anything, long winded rivalries are the games of the nobility.  The rest of the world is savage and final, right?

[Wday]

Only PVP surprise to me is that it is mostly same clan killing off clannies, or ranking members in the clan and staff doing so.  But then there is very little of a outward conflict to fight so guess it makes it part of the harsh desert world or something.

[Lizzie]

I'm surprised the realism players havent voted more on this issue.   

I agree there is a lack of ways to hurt another character at times, other than death.  Yet, once a pc gets to the point of killing another pc, shouldnt effectiveness matter?   Contract hits arent taken out with a 40% chance of success, and tactically "rocket launcher tag" is always stupid.  If you cannot afford to take a counterstroke, dont let the other guy survive to hire a murderer or report their problem to law enforcement.

I dont think Arm has a social "dueling" culture.   If anything, long winded rivalries are the games of the nobility.  The rest of the world is savage and final, right?

Realistically, someone would shoot the other with a gun and there would be no combat scene at all.

The dueling culture aspect is demonstrated via brawling and unarmed combat, and sparring weapons with the mercy flag toggled on. There's also the roleplayed aspect via the "three-cuts" dueling style of various and sundry tribals and others.

I'm fine with quick deaths, if I know I'm outmatched and will die anyway. Better to get it over with and submit an app for a new character than have it take forever and have to ooc that I have to log out and let's continue tomorrow.