Stealth vs Scan/theft

[Derain]

Just wanted to touch on the fact that an elf player with high agility is still able to be a ghost in a room full of people, given that not everyone would be paying attention.. But recently I see taverns are pretty well empty due to players just coming along and stealing everything off peoples belts literally. The law enforcement PCs are completely unable to do anything because said sneaky PCs are impossible to spot even with watch, scan at master.

This in my opinion takes any risk out of the sneaky PCs hands.

My thought is perhaps give NPC soldiers and guards higher stealth when guarding Reds/Gaj etc or bump the spotting skills. Maybe lower the stealth skills, cause sneak and hide isn't invisibility and if your taking 4-5 items from one PC first you should be noticed at that point and second it's pretty poor RP.

Sidenote- Make compound gates with a guard that is checking people no hide rooms for the right inside the gate room.

[kahuna]

It is possible to see them with master scan you just have to be very persistent with your looks and watch shadow commands.

While I think some rooms should be no hide for obvious reasons, compounds are already difficult enough to get into. I've stated this previously but compounds, estates should just have scale able walls for realistic break ins. Shadowing people thru the gate I will admit is odd but not outside the realm of possibility if it's at night and the gate guard is an idiot. Just because the script is immediate doesn't mean that they are opening/closing a heavy ass gate within mere seconds (that is how long IRL time it takes), I foresee someone shadowing taking their time to sneak past the gate guard while the gate is open somehow.

[Derain]

Sorry but the VNPCs would notice the random guy following through the gate, and would likely notice the rinther cloaked person or MUL following someone in. Completely unrealistic and the house wouldn't have a gate guard protecting their entire family who is an idiot.

Also you should have to L L L L L L LL L LL L L LL L L L L L L L L while in the bar and if you'd like to test a exceptional agility elf against any other races scan you should next to impossible, especially since they will just flee the second someone gets a look re-hide and come back to rob multiple items from the same targets.

[Qzzrbl]

just up your "watch shadow" script and pray they're not beyond that "you actually have no hope of finding them before they get bored and leave even with master scan" threshold brah

[Derain]

If your getting 4-5 items stolen at a bar someone should notice.

[kahuna]

Sorry but the VNPCs would notice the random guy following through the gate, and would likely notice the rinther cloaked person or MUL following someone in. Completely unrealistic and the house wouldn't have a gate guard protecting their entire family who is an idiot.

Also you should have to L L L L L L LL L LL L L LL L L L L L L L L while in the bar and if you'd like to test a exceptional agility elf against any other races scan you should next to impossible, especially since they will just flee the second someone gets a look re-hide and come back to rob multiple items from the same targets.

Who determines their are VNPCs there? Who determines the VNPC behavior? If you apply this rule to compounds you could apply this rule to every single clan, area, road, building, etc. with a base of operations in every part of the game. It breaks gameplay IMHO. Players deal with players, involving the virtual world is messy and rarely if ever results in fostering a healthy RP environment.

[Qzzrbl]

Stealth in Armageddon is high-risk high-reward.

Until it isn't.

I'd be all for curtailing those "this really isn't high-risk at this point anymore" scenarios.

'Cause there is an argument to be made that up top "ghosty invisible seriously nobody can see me without max scan and <redacted, probably>" tier stealth is just as detrimental to gameplay and a healthy RP environment as the inverse.

[Derain]

Also most compounds have a guard on both sides of the gate so while one is opening/closing it is safe to say the other is likely watching traffic, sneaking in:out of clan compounds is really just twinkish.

And I get it your against making it harder on sneaky PCs but I'm just saying perhaps they are capping way too high and it needs balance. Because if it's literally almost impossible to see them with stealth gear well shit.

Also PSA please stop hiding right in front of people as I've seen it break watch so many times and it's jarring as shit.

[X-D]

I am with Derain on this.  But I do not want to see any changes to stealth itself.
Instead I want to see changes to steal, Crime code and scan/listen.

First, A standing PC with scan and listen on should be an "aware" Pc, giving at least a small neg to steal, that neg should be increased with higher scan and listen skill.

Failing a steal and covering should DRASTICALLY increase the odds to critical fail on any more attempts on the same target inside a reasonable time period AND should lower your stealth skill verses that PC for a few seconds.

Drastically alter the modifiers for weights. I still see VERY silly things getting stolen.

Lastly, Why is it that a crit fail on a npc invokes crime code but does not on a PC? That should be changed. Along with If you steal from a PC, successful or fail that PC should be immune to crime code verses you for like an hour. But not you verses him.

It is the current state of theft that makes many places empty. People get tired of it. Specially when you see the somebody tries to steal from you message 8 times in a row in 5 minutes. Honestly, that should be impossible. Sadly, the only way to make it so is to move to someplace safe from such things.

[Nile]

One thing is certain: this has effectively killed social PCs going out in actual public to socialise. The taverns in Allanak are constantly empty and whenever a group starts, someone gets robbed and every single PC finds something else to do. I'm guilty myself. I never go into the taverns anymore as it is just plain old boring theft.

Imo, it isnt the code's fault, but the players. About 80% of my PCs have been stealthy types and I always found it incredibly easy and rewarding to throw out an emote (big fucking deal if it breaks your hide. you can emote, type a direction, and be out of their line of sight instantly. I've also shouted from other rooms before running off. Whispered in people's ears. Most of the time it never even broke my hide. Semotes are RP, but they are incredibly boring in a tavern-type situation. You might as wel be playing with yourself.

I made a thread about this ages ago and a bunch of people threw a hissy fit when I said their RP is shit. Wonder if the same response will happen now the game-world is genuinely on the decline.

[lairos]

Who determines their are VNPCs there? Who determines the VNPC behavior? If you apply this rule to compounds you could apply this rule to every single clan, area, road, building, etc. with a base of operations in every part of the game. It breaks gameplay IMHO. Players deal with players, involving the virtual world is messy and rarely if ever results in fostering a healthy RP environment.

Pretty sure that would be staff and they are also listed in room descriptions and we can all use common sense. I am pretty confident these behaviors are also controlled by staff. I believe anytime someone wants to break into a compound or otherwise they should be sending in reports about them so the world can react appropriately. This is not a game that is entirely centered around PC's vs Pc's. While staff try and allow things to remain PC Vs. PC there are many things that are not included in that and one of them would breaking into compounds. I don't think this doesn't foster a healthy RP environment, I think it just makes the game more realistic than thinking someone can do whatever they want regardless of their environment. Also, most of the major compounds from merchant houses, nobles, ect...that have the coin? They have already thought of people scaling their walls and placed countermeasures such as spikes, shards or otherwise to make it a very, very painful experience and likely to attract attention.

I completely agree with X-D and I suppose the main point. When your stealth is about as good, if not better than being invisible by means of magick, there is an issue. Stealing 1 item per person as you're moving through the tavern is one thing, but stealing from the same people over and over again, if that is happening, is silly and pretty unrealistic IMO. Someone actively scanning the room, emoting looking around should not have to sit there and spam look or watch shadow just to get through when the reverse is completely different if stats and skill are decent enough.

[ghanima]

Just remember, it is possible to make yourself 100% steal-proof with a few simple practices. You can effectively nullify a thief's power. Maybe he can use his invisibility-hide so that you can't ever see him, but he can't touch you unless you set it up so he can.

Thieves are not overpowered, thief victims are.

[kahuna]

Just remember, it is possible to make yourself 100% steal-proof with a few simple practices. You can effectively nullify a thief's power. Maybe he can use his invisibility-hide so that you can't ever see him, but he can't touch you unless you set it up so he can.

Thieves are not overpowered, thief victims are.

Have to agree here. I don't know how you can complain about thieves when there are so few active at any given time. You can't steal from closed containers and damn near everything closes nowadays.  People complaining about not getting an emote is also a baseless accusation. Nobody is obligated to emote to you in any situation much less when they're about to steal something from you.

[Hauwke]

Don't forget: Getting spotted is basically a death sentence for a sneaky character. Everyone complains about never seeing the thief, but when they do see the thief they instantly share the full mdesc and sdesc with every Templar and Soldier in the game.

[ghanima]

Actually, kahuna, you can get to closed containers via the latch/unlatch command (which works off your sleight of hand skill), but there is of course difficulty and risk involved. Moreover, not all containers are equal. Some cannot be peeked in, based on their whereabouts on the person, and of course some objects are simply too cumbersome to be lifted. The mechanics of this are easy to learn and once doing so you can make yourself 100% invulnerable to theft. If that's not overpowered in favor of the thief victim, then nothing is.

I agree re: the obligation to emote while stealing. I really don't think seeing that emote from a "someone" will make you feel any better about being pickpocketed. It's just something convenient to say when there is no emote. Whatever the case, there's clearly something about being stolen from that seems to enrage players almost more than being pkilled.

[X-D]

Kahuna.

First off, the number of active thieves does not matter. There could be a single one doing the theft of ten, the outcome is the same as if there was ten.

Secondly...really, your solution to poor RP and code faults is to put everything into a closeable bag inside a wearable closeable container? Yeah that makes total RP sense. Oh hey wait a moment to attack while I get some weapons out from this bag in a bag.
Open pack
get bag pack
open bag
get sword bag
get club bag
close bag
ep sword
You don't have that.
I
bag
club
ep club
you don't have that.

Which is another thing (I have actually seen the above, least the things poofing from inventory) How exactly does somebody nab things you are actively handling? Oh right...code limits.

Ghanima
Not so much getting stolen from as getting stolen from in a manner that is impossible to reconcile with reality and having no recourse at all. Somebody nabs my skinning knife from my boot...meh, alright...it is small I was not paying attention. Somebody nabs this spiky mace that I emoted holding under my arm? Something that would be impossible to do in reality? Or, Somebody fails  3 times then succeeds then fails 4 more times then succeeds while Scan, listen, stand, emote standing in a corner with nobody around me?  Where EVEN if they did fail and reveal themselves I STILL have no recourse. I cannot yell "Thief thief!" and have soldiers swarm them. I can take no aggressive action at all.

If somebody tries to PK my guy, I can take actions.

[Nile]

Heh, I never get the opposition to RPing in a RPI. Always makes me think it's just a bunch of folks who don't realise how easy it is to make things like this into an actual  scene of sorts rather than a de facto vNPC interaction, Or they are just jumping to conclusions I already pointed out are baseless, such  as emoting and having  someone look at you when you can lilterally emote, enter a direction and be gone from the room before anyone can stand up from the bar.

[X-D]

Also Nile, Much of the reason for code is to police the players.

[ghanima]

Ghanima
Not so much getting stolen from as getting stolen from in a manner that is impossible to reconcile with reality and having no recourse at all. Somebody nabs my skinning knife from my boot...meh, alright...it is small I was not paying attention. Somebody nabs this spiky mace that I emoted holding under my arm? Something that would be impossible to do in reality? Or, Somebody fails  3 times then succeeds then fails 4 more times then succeeds while Scan, listen, stand, emote standing in a corner with nobody around me?  Where EVEN if they did fail and reveal themselves I STILL have no recourse. I cannot yell "Thief thief!" and have soldiers swarm them. I can take no aggressive action at all.

If somebody tries to PK my guy, I can take actions.

I can only speak from my experiences, not others, but these sorts of incidents almost never happen. Or if so, once in a great great while. You emoted holding your mace and moments later it got stolen? Maybe the thief sneaked in after you emoted. I have a have a hard time imagining this happens every day and every time you enter the Gaj you're robbed of six or more items in one go. I'm sure it happens, I doubt it happens as a regular course.

And if that isn't enough, I repeat: make yourself invulnerable to stealing and all of the above becomes a non issue. You have the power to fully neutralize the steal skill. Imagine if I could fully neutralize the attack command! It's that powerful. How much more in your favor do you need?

[X-D]

Because it is rather silly/unrealistic to have to jump through those kinds of code hoops to have to deal with code limits and the people who take advantage of them. As I already posted.

As to how often it happens...what does that have to do with anything? Once is too much and it happens quite a bit more often then that. If it did not this thread would not exist and those public gathering spots would have a few more PCs in them.

And "in your favor" I think you are rather missing the point of a RP game. Especially a coded RP game.

Yes, my PC can jump through silly unrealistic hoops to make sure this one thing does not happen...Of course he leaves himself open to other things happening then. But hey, who cares about immersion...AmIRight?


Also, you like to pick each example as its own thing, does this one thing happen every time? Of course not. But there is a range of things, all just as bad or worse and together, yes, they happen all the time.

One more thing, Staff makes changes all the time to make it a bit harder or realistic to train skills, look at recent ranged changes. As it stands, long as you are willing to max out stealth first, training steal is pretty darn safe and fast leaving that skill with no checks or balances in training or otherwise.

[ghanima]

Because it is rather silly/unrealistic to have to jump through those kinds of code hoops to have to deal with code limits and the people who take advantage of them. As I already posted.

Wearing armor to better protect yourself from attacks could just as easily be deemed jumping through code hoops. There are a lot of things we do, codedly, to better protect ourselves and I don't hear anyone declaring the unfairness of it. Coordinating what you wear and how you store things is something anyone in the real world might do to avoid being pickpocketed. There are certain cities I travel to where I do exactly that all the time. It's actually quite simple and not a big sacrifice to go through. It's also as IC as it is OOC.

As to how often it happens...what does that have to do with anything? Once is too much and it happens quite a bit more often then that. If it did not this thread would not exist and those public gathering spots would have a few more PCs in them.

Because the more you constrain the game with rules and policies and limitations, the less fun it becomes. Because implementing certain coded defenses should be balanced, not done simply because a thing has the potential for abuse. Everything can be abused. How do you stop people form overhunting? How do you stop people from spamming skills? How do you stop people from not talking about real world things like airplanes and automobiles IC? You could create a coded means of preventing almost all of these, but it would come at a cost.

However, if everything which can be abused should be prevented with a coded defense mechanism, what is your proposal for the abuse that happens when a player makes him or herself 100% steal proof?

[Qzzrbl]

Good lord did wearing armor and that exploity bag trick just get conflated under the banner of jumping through code hoops?

Come on.

Coded rules, constraints, and fun are not at all mutually exclusive. We'd all be rocking out on a MUSH and emoting through all of our skills if that were the case.

[ghanima]

What exploity bag trick? I'm talking about not putting specific items in specific containers, or wearing specific items on specific locations, much as I would do in the real world if wanting to avoid being pickpocketed.

I have no idea what the purpose of putting x number of items in a bunch of bags is for. If it's to avoid being stolen, there are way simpler ways to go about it (and realistic ones). If all this time you guys thought I was suggesting some coded trick with bags then we're not even having the same discussion.

So here's what I mean: some containers can be peeked into, some cannot. Why? Because of where they are located on your body. Believe it or not there is some realism at play in the code with regards to peek and steal. Furthermore, some containers can be stolen from and some cannot. Some items can be stolen and some cannot. Some can be stolen in one place, but not in another. There are more details at play as well, but it's probably not permitted to discuss those specifics here. I think you get my point regardless.

I maintain there are completely realistic methods of being 100% steal proof, methods one would employ in the real world to do the exact same thing. Bags have nothing to do with this discussion (or at least my part in it).

[Qzzrbl]

Ah, my bad.

Misunderstood what you were getting at there.

Still though, I maintain that you're-actually-invisible levels of stealth and a thief's ability to walk around a bar snootching whatever isn't nailed to a person doesn't make for a very healthy environment.

Hell, it's not even that I don't want to be stolen from in-game. I can roll with that. Definitely not a member of the stab-all-thieves gang.

It's just that having to pretend my character's eyes have simply stopped working because the code offers no method of letting me pick out that mook that's already soft-failed two steal attempts without rolling the right stats and scan sitting at master a is kinda ridiculous.

Happens more often than you'd think.

[SmashedTregil]

Does super stealth works only for celves with high agility? Or can any miscreant with human level agility capable of this immunity?