Let's Get Our Quota!!!!! Why PKing?

[Shalooonsh]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

[Heade]

- The locked room death encourages clan play

Generally, I don't care about encouraging clan play. But if that is something we want to do, it should be done by making clans interesting enough that players enjoy playing as a part of an interesting group rather than saying it's necessary if you want a character to live for any period of time at all.

- Our apartments have 1 entry point and 1 vulnerability - nobody can sneak through windows, force a door with a prybar, or do any of the other reasonable things to threaten your property that someone could do in IRL - if we take away shadowing folks into their apartments, something else is needed to compensate.

Not all apartments only have 1 entry point, and apartments don't all have windows. The ones that do have windows/balconies often have separate entryways on that side. Nothing needs to "compensate" for eliminating an unrealistic mechanic like shadowing people into their apartment. The best sets of "killer" skills have been separated from the best "burglar" skills for a reason. It's meant to promote teams of people working together instead of a lone assassin who can do everything.

Shadowing people into their apartment without them noticing is simply NOT something that should happen, period. If people go through the effort to break in while they're not home and wait for them, that's fine. But the shadowing without notice isn't.

I do see PKs, but I'm not seeing any problem with them. From my perspective, none of the ones I know about have been "senseless" at all.

Lizzie, people don't see the vast majority of PKs that happen. Especially if the PK is a new player/new character who a lot of people don't know. There are fresh bodies on the corpse pile in Nak daily. With the average player counts we have in game, that represents a significant percentage of the playerbase being killed off with regularity. And we, as players, aren't allowed to OOCly talk about the circumstances of our PC's deaths for at least a year after playing them. So, while I appreciate that you aren't "involved" in senseless PKs, that doesn't mean they don't happen just because you don't know about them. There are tons of systems in place to ensure you don't know about them.

[Veselka]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

Wouldn't death reports be a more accurate form of data?

I agree that PK is likely not as off the chain as people are making it out to be, but character approvals don't imply how previous PCs perished, only that their PC has perished so they are applying for a new PC. I imagine PK reports and their frequency would provide more information on that front, particularly because they are more or less required now.

[Alesan]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

[Veselka]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

From the 'help kill' helpfile (There is no help PK, help player killing, or help pk report. Maybe there should be!)

Code Select Expand


   If your character is about to PK another character, we do ask that you wish up to alert staff. A
simple 'About to PK Amos' is all that is needed, although we understand that sometimes, in the heat
of the moment, it is not possible to wish up prior to a PK. After the PK, we also ask that you
submit a quick report through the request tool to sum up your character's intention or reasoning
behind the kill. This is to keep staff informed in case consequences arise from it that we can
handle.




[Alesan]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

The only issue I see with that is what if there are no staff available at the time of the PK. If you are only wishing up at the time of the PK, without sending in an actual report through the request tool, the staff will not be aware of it. Unless wishes are logged?

[Veselka]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

The only issue I see with that is what if there are no staff available at the time of the PK. If you are only wishing up at the time of the PK, without sending in an actual report through the request tool, the staff will not be aware of it. Unless wishes are logged?

Wishes are logged AFAIK, but as posted above, you are supposed to file a PK report via the request tool. I agree the language makes it seem not required. 'We Ask' is a request to do so, but it doesn't say 'You are required to'.

[Alesan]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

The only issue I see with that is what if there are no staff available at the time of the PK. If you are only wishing up at the time of the PK, without sending in an actual report through the request tool, the staff will not be aware of it. Unless wishes are logged?

Wishes are logged AFAIK, but as posted above, you are supposed to file a PK report via the request tool. I agree the language makes it seem not required. 'We Ask' is a request to do so, but it doesn't say 'You are required to'.

I'm thinking if that's the case, the wording should be changed to reflect that it is a required action rather than a suggested action... otherwise it feels open to interpretation.

[Heade]

First, the wish up and the PK report are 2 separate things. Both should be done.

The PK report is an official explanation of your character's internal reasoning for doing what they did.

The wish up is so that, if available, a staffer who is interested may come observe what actually happens.

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

I actually don't think they're particularly strict about it at all. They have said they would like people to send in PK reports. But they've also said that they only send someone a "strongly worded warning" about doing so once they hit several PKs on a single PC without sending in reports.

I know in some cases, wishing up might not be possible in a twitchy situation, but generally, I don't think typing "wish all I'm very seriously considering PKing X." As a simple heads up that it MIGHT happen is too much to ask. Especially if you're stalking them and planning on sapping/backstabbing them. This is the thing that should instead be a "strongly worded warning" if it doesn't happen a few times.

Like Alesan, I think a PK report should be required for every PK, without leniency. Even to the point where, if a PK report hasn't been received within 48 hours of the PK, they get locked out of the game until their PK report is received and resolved.

[Veselka]

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that. Every PK report I've filed has been responded to with 'looks good from our end' or 'we were there watching' in any case. My PKs are unassailable.

[Nameless Face]

If I scanned the docs right, the only required staff interaction in any non-sponsored, non-leadership or other non-special (family or such) role is to become approved for play through char-gen.

Everything else is only "recommend" or optional.  For some players, based on the comments I've read, this is preferred.

[Heade]

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that. Every PK report I've filed has been responded to with 'looks good from our end' or 'we were there watching' in any case. My PKs are unassailable.

Good. I suspect that the vast majority of players are similarly responsible. If I had to guess, I would speculate that there are a handful of players who consistently play PCs responsible for an inordinately high percentage of PKs. This sort of requirement doesn't really have a major impact on players that aren't a part of that "cult of PK".

But there are some players who play the game specifically to kill other PCs as their primary motivation of playing. Players who, when forced to send in PK reports, will have to make up reasons for their character to kill someone rather than organically HAVE a reason to kill someone prior to said PK. It is these players that PK reports will reveal, because patterns of justification will emerge.

PK report #1: I killed X for his boots.
PK report #2: I killed Y for his sword.
Staff response: Wait, didn't the guy who you killed for his boots yesterday have a sword just like that one?

People should be held to account for at least ATTEMPTING to RP a realistic, living character, and not just a competitive PKing avatar.

I WANT PK in the game. I want it to be the ultimate conflict resolution tool to facilitate RP. I don't want people doing the opposite, PKing, then coming up with some arbitrary rationale for why the PK was justified, when OOCly they just wanted to PK someone, anyone, really.

[Bebop]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

I would love to see these numbers now vs 5 years ago.  I know for a fact that within the first few months of my return we were down to 13 people on a Friday night during peak.  2-3 PC's were easily getting player killed a week. 

Numbers are also relative to averages.  So if you have low numbers, as we did then, proportionately that amount of PK is huge.  PKs vs player log ins.  I would love to see those numbers.  2 - 3 PK a week when numbers were low was literally murder on the game.

I don't think it's a coincidence this concern keeps arising from vet players.  Out of the five characters I've had since my year and a half being back 2 were stored, 2 were insta kill pks, one could barely leave the safety of their home due to numberous pk attempts.   

That's basically half of my pcs in one year being insta killed and pked.  That number easily could have been higher had I not stored --- as opposed to playing from 2004 - 2014 and being assassinated instantly one time ever in ten years.  I was pked more than that but usually that was by Templarate or raids gone wrong.  But only one backstab insta death assassination type thing in TEN years .

In that time I played a Guild Boss that killed a scorcerer and a psion, a Merc that helped killl a mul.  Never used perraine for any of that.  Don't think I ever got perrained either.  It was actually rare.  Hermaidr was all but a myrh.

Maybe it's just personal experience but I never had the experience of seeing so much poison use and blatant PK which is I made my thread talking about how it was helping straight kill off the game last year.  Our numbers were so low - single digits during peak hours sometimes - a legit thought this game was done for.

I hate it.  I feel like the story is so shallow and I don't have much investment in the game atm tbh because I'm always ready to die quickly and easily for the most petty, unrealistic reasons possible with no coded way to save against the op skills used against me.  And any ig privilege supposedly enforced by the lore is reinforced so fleetingly it doesn't seem to matter.

Increasingly, the world feels like a coded playground with a vague RP backdrop.  Allanak also feels increasingly like Tuluk.  The social meta is really tilted.

[Alesan]

I'm curious though. Is there a reason why a player would prefer not to inform the staff of a PK attempt? Honestly, why would you not want staff to know about a PK?

[Heade]

I'm curious though. Is there a reason why a player would prefer not to inform the staff of a PK attempt? Honestly, why would you not want staff to know about a PK?

If you're playing the game as a coded, text-based deathmatch game, and your enjoyment in the game is derived from running around codedly killing players and NPCs rather than being derived from roleplaying, then why would you want to explain a PK to someone? For such players, in their mind, the act of PKing IS the justification for the PK. They PKed because the competition and challenge of killing other players is the thrill of the game for them.

Explaining character motivations and the story behind it is something that many roleplayers enjoy doing because they're story builders. People who play specifically for PK on the other hand probably don't enjoy such a thing, because they're not story builders. They're thrill seekers, and taking time to go write character motivations and reasonings is detracting from the time they have to seek those thrills and PK opportunities. For such players, the fact that the game is supposed to be RP-enforced is often a "burden" to them, rather than their reason for playing.

[Veselka]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

I would love to see these numbers now vs 5 years ago.  I know for a fact that within the first few months of my return we were down to 13 people on a Friday night during peak.  2-3 PC's were easily getting player killed a week. 

Numbers are also relative to averages.  So if you have low numbers, as we did then, proportionately that amount of PK is huge.  PKs vs player log ins.  I would love to see those numbers.  2 - 3 PK a week when numbers were low was literally murder on the game.

I don't think it's a coincidence this concern keeps arising from vet players.  Out of the five characters I've had since my year and a half being back 2 were stored, 2 were insta kill pks, one could barely leave the safety of their home due to numberous pk attempts.   

That's basically half of my pcs in one year being insta killed and pked.  That number easily could have been higher had I not stored --- as opposed to playing from 2004 - 2014 and being assassinated instantly one time ever in ten years.  I was pked more than that but usually that was by Templarate or raids gone wrong.  But only one backstab insta death assassination type thing in TEN years .

In that time I played a Guild Boss that killed a scorcerer and a psion, a Merc that helped killl a mul.  Never used perraine for any of that.  Don't think I ever got perrained either.  It was actually rare.  Hermaidr was all but a myrh.

Maybe it's just personal experience but I never had the experience of seeing so much poison use and blatant PK which is I made my thread talking about how it was helping straight kill off the game last year.  Our numbers were so low - single digits during peak hours sometimes - a legit thought this game was done for.

I hate it.  I feel like the story is so shallow and I don't have much investment in the game atm tbh because I'm always ready to die quickly and easily for the most petty, unrealistic reasons possible with no coded way to save against the op skills used against me.  And any ig privilege supposedly enforced by the lore is reinforced so fleetingly it doesn't seem to matter.

Increasingly, the world feels like a coded playground with a vague RP backdrop.  Allanak also feels increasingly like Tuluk.  The social meta is really tilted.

This is super anecdotal. I had a very different experience, both with player numbers, depth of story, and frequency of PK. I would say it was a personal experience and opinion, not necessarily empirical truth.

That isn't to say it wasn't true for you -- But I don't think the game was on the verge of dying a year ago, or that PK is more rampant than it was 5 or 10 years ago. I think depending on the roles you are playing, you may be more or less exposed to PK. PK in Tuluk was also less visible, but definitely happened often.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

[/quote]

If you're playing the game as a coded, text-based deathmatch game, and your enjoyment in the game is derived from running around codedly killing players and NPCs rather than being derived from roleplaying, then why would you want to explain a PK to someone? For such players, in their mind, the act of PKing IS the justification for the PK. They PKed because the competition and challenge of killing other players is the thrill of the game for them.

Explaining character motivations and the story behind it is something that many roleplayers enjoy doing because they're story builders. People who play specifically for PK on the other hand probably don't enjoy such a thing, because they're not story builders. They're thrill seekers, and taking time to go write character motivations and reasonings is detracting from the time they have to seek those thrills and PK opportunities. For such players, the fact that the game is supposed to be RP-enforced is often a "burden" to them, rather than their reason for playing.
[/quote]

For those people, I say, go find a game where PK is the theme. PK is not the theme in Arm. Roleplay is. From the very first line of the introduction:

Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things.

[Bebop]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

I would love to see these numbers now vs 5 years ago.  I know for a fact that within the first few months of my return we were down to 13 people on a Friday night during peak.  2-3 PC's were easily getting player killed a week. 

Numbers are also relative to averages.  So if you have low numbers, as we did then, proportionately that amount of PK is huge.  PKs vs player log ins.  I would love to see those numbers.  2 - 3 PK a week when numbers were low was literally murder on the game.

I don't think it's a coincidence this concern keeps arising from vet players.  Out of the five characters I've had since my year and a half being back 2 were stored, 2 were insta kill pks, one could barely leave the safety of their home due to numberous pk attempts.   

That's basically half of my pcs in one year being insta killed and pked.  That number easily could have been higher had I not stored --- as opposed to playing from 2004 - 2014 and being assassinated instantly one time ever in ten years.  I was pked more than that but usually that was by Templarate or raids gone wrong.  But only one backstab insta death assassination type thing in TEN years .

In that time I played a Guild Boss that killed a scorcerer and a psion, a Merc that helped killl a mul.  Never used perraine for any of that.  Don't think I ever got perrained either.  It was actually rare.  Hermaidr was all but a myrh.

Maybe it's just personal experience but I never had the experience of seeing so much poison use and blatant PK which is I made my thread talking about how it was helping straight kill off the game last year.  Our numbers were so low - single digits during peak hours sometimes - a legit thought this game was done for.

I hate it.  I feel like the story is so shallow and I don't have much investment in the game atm tbh because I'm always ready to die quickly and easily for the most petty, unrealistic reasons possible with no coded way to save against the op skills used against me.  And any ig privilege supposedly enforced by the lore is reinforced so fleetingly it doesn't seem to matter.

Increasingly, the world feels like a coded playground with a vague RP backdrop.  Allanak also feels increasingly like Tuluk.  The social meta is really tilted.

This is super anecdotal. I had a very different experience, both with player numbers, depth of story, and frequency of PK. I would say it was a personal experience and opinion, not necessarily empirical truth.

That isn't to say it wasn't true for you -- But I don't think the game was on the verge of dying a year ago, or that PK is more rampant than it was 5 or 10 years ago. I think depending on the roles you are playing, you may be more or less exposed to PK. PK in Tuluk was also less visible, but definitely happened often.

I acknowledged in my own post my experience was my own and therefore anecdotal so I'd like the numbers to go off of math and science instead of my own personal experience.  I never said it was "imperical" truth.  Didn't even hint at that.  It's why I requested the numbers against player averages so a PK ratio can be found that trump's any of our singular opinions.

I'm not going to be reading your posts any further.  They all follow a very obvious structure.  Disagree instantly with Bebop.  State the obvious as privledged information.  Posture with your own opinion presenting it as inherently superior while missing my point entirely due to being overly eager to disagree for the sake of being a contrarian.  Oh and calling people fascists. 🤣 Your bias against me is showing.  You really don't have to try and personally discredit every opinion and experience I disclose here but the effort in doing so is noted.  I'm allowed to state my own game experience here.so politely step off.

[Veselka]

Liberal fascists, but sure. You tend to state opinion as fact, and are shocked there are people that disagree, imploring them to stop sharing their opinions because you disagree with them.

I encourage you to continue stating your opinions on the discussion board, and wouldn't implore you to do otherwise. However, yes, we typically seem to disagree with each other, and likely have a different view of the world. No worries! I don't think less of you for being different.

[Bebop]

Liberal fascists, but sure. You tend to state opinion as fact, and are shocked there are people that disagree, imploring them to stop sharing their opinions because you disagree with them.

I encourage you to continue stating your opinions on the discussion board, and wouldn't implore you to do otherwise. However, yes, we typically seem to disagree with each other, and likely have a different view of the world. No worries! I don't think less of you for being different.

So glad I have your permission and encouragement after being part of this community for almost 15 years.  Thanks!  😂🙄

So this thread isn't derailed further by all means please PM me to let me know how stating things in the context of "my experience was" and "I personally feel" or requesting numbers to form my opinion around facts is absolutism and not you attacking me on here for everything I say and do.

My game experience is my experience and I'm allowed to disclose it here.  Again.  Step off.

[Veselka]

You're welcome.

[Riev]

This is now so wildly off topic. PK Reports have nothing to do with "why PK"

[Heade]

If you're playing the game as a coded, text-based deathmatch game, and your enjoyment in the game is derived from running around codedly killing players and NPCs rather than being derived from roleplaying, then why would you want to explain a PK to someone? For such players, in their mind, the act of PKing IS the justification for the PK. They PKed because the competition and challenge of killing other players is the thrill of the game for them.

For those people, I say, go find a game where PK is the theme. PK is not the theme in Arm. Roleplay is. From the very first line of the introduction:

Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things.

Sure, that's easy to say, until you start putting faces and names to said unnamed players. The attitudes regarding PK being the thrill of the game for certain people aren't speculative. In other threads, certain players have openly stated that PK is the reason that they play the game, and pursuit of PKs, and the challenge of killing other players is what they enjoy.

Such people will, generally, follow what is enforced in order to maintain access to the elements of the game that they enjoy. They will RP at the minimum acceptable level to not get in trouble(and to get access to gated content they want access to) and, if required, will submit PK reports with the minimum justifiable inclusions as to why they happened. If forced to ACTUALLY have an RP reason to engage in PK under threat of ban, they will leave, comply minimally, or fail to comply and be banned.

But, as far as I know, we have no strong rules on the matter, so currently they're mostly free to simply do what they want most of the time.

This is now so wildly off topic. PK Reports have nothing to do with "why PK"

You think talking about the reports used to answer the question "why PK?" is wildly off topic of "why PK?"?

It's a very closely related topic, and a tool the staff have chosen to be used to address issues surrounding PK that players and staff have concerns about. Let's not try to stifle related conversation. The idea that a thread must be separately created for every permutation of an idea or question is silly.

[Shalooonsh]

Veselka, step the fuck off of Bebop's dick.  It's longer than yours, and it's going to fuck up your posture.

Bebop, I get that you're incensed about this, but your experience and knowledge is anecdotal in this instance, and therefor people are right to examine it thusly.

I am speaking from a position of actual knowledge of numbers across the playerbase.  Do I have a stack of Death Reports on my desk that I keep all prim and proper and thumb through them every hour or two in order to FTB?  No. 

But I do have an awful lot of experience watching notifications kick off when someone eats it, and I can say without a doubt that the ratio of PK is easily between 10-15% of total deaths, with NPCs taking up the majority, falling damage having a definite proud showing, and the ocassional self-poisoning or starvation/dehydration.

The simple fact is that PK, especially insta-PK, is not nearly as prevalent as it may FEEL because you're being repeatedly and brutally whacked.  Does it feel like it is when you lose repeated characters?  Yeah.  Of course it does.  It's you being punched in the virtual face and having to start over again... and it sucks.

But it's not everywhere.  There aren't insta-assassins (just add water!) lurking behind every shadow.  Are there players out there that know what they're doing and git gud in order to make those swag kills?  Sure are.  Just like IRL there are mafia dudes who can disappear people in an artful fashion and then go back to their family and eat a polite dinner without even needing to change clothes.  It's creepy, but there's specials about it on Netflix, so I know it's true.

PK is a vital part of a perm_death game.  Do I think mutilations and threatenings and all that should be more common place?  Well yeah, because just like death, those things are awesome, and they drive character development. They turn stories on their heads, and make new and exciting things happen when Lucky Larry suddenly becomes Lefty Larry because he stepped on the wrong elf's shadow.  Do I also understand why people don't always mutilate, but instead just decapitate?  I sure as hell do.  Leaving an enemy alive is another knife waiting for your back, and sometimes, that knife can have a lot of friends.  Life gets difficult when you leave enemies alive.... buuuut that doesn't mean that your PC wouldn't do it from time to time.  Sudden pangs of guilt, sudden memories dredged up by looking at the face of your nemesis, all that stuff.... excellent reasons to leave someone alive.  And if they're a good RP'er, they'll act as their character would (fearful) instead of as the player would (insta-rage-gank-monster) and coming after you with a bootsquad.

Please settle the fuck down.  I don't like moderating things, but I'll moderate the hell out of this thread if it keeps getting heated. 

Keep it impersonal.  Keep it data driven.  Express your ideas and views clearly and concisely, and don't use it as a platform to make personal pot shots based on what's happened before.

'K?

Love and kisses,
-Shalooonsh

[Veselka]

Veselka, step the fuck off of Bebop's dick.  It's longer than yours, and it's going to fuck up your posture.

I think I've been pretty courteous, Shalooonsh. This on the other hand is another example of you telling other people to stop trolling, yet being just as (or more) insensitive and personal in your response. Dick size -- Really?