The Rinth Needs Teeth

[kahuna]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.

Wait are you seriously comparing our modern country of 300 million people with a prehistoric fantasy world that most closely would resemble ancient babylon or mesopotamia? 

[Dar]

Here's an updated census. Instead of 2006, this one is more of 2008-2009. It's still wrong, because a lot of shit happened since then. Famine, Volcanoes, seiges, elemental attacks, some more famine, zombification of the entirety of Tuluk. Etc.


Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)


Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

[Hauwke]

Well, there we go. I was close enough.

I imagine that if even 0.1% of the population is at the very least directly associated with the guild, then that would equate to 4.8k people. Though, that sounds awfully high for what is essentially the Mafia of Zalanthas.

[Dar]

The Guild and "associated" with the guild is a rather ... loose term.

If you think the guild would spring to action over 99% of 'any' of those associations, I do believe you're mistaken.

[Eluin]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.

Wait are you seriously comparing our modern country of 300 million people with a prehistoric fantasy world that most closely would resemble ancient babylon or mesopotamia?

To add to this, I feel like the United States in particular is a pretty poor example considering I think it has the highest percentage of its population imprisoned than... any other first world country? By a rather absurd margin?

[Lutagar]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.

Wait are you seriously comparing our modern country of 300 million people with a prehistoric fantasy world that most closely would resemble ancient babylon or mesopotamia?

To add to this, I feel like the United States in particular is a pretty poor example considering I think it has the highest percentage of its population imprisoned than... any other first world country? By a rather absurd margin?

if the echos are anything to go by Zalanthans would rather quietly starve to death in the street in en masse crowds rather than than riot or loot one of the many food stores

[Krath]

Here is where the confusion comes in for me when talking about the original subject and I would like staff to weigh in.

Are the guild "crews" the equivalent of corner owners of the real life crips/bloods/MS-13/Latin Kings etc?
    Assuming this is the case, if one of the "corner" leaders got killed on their block, Upper management would expect the rest of their block gang
    to handle it, or they get wiped out and they move on to another crew that is capable of holding/protecting their corner and generating revenue.
    It is a dog eat dog world in the rinth/ghetto, and if you and your crew cannot handle your own shit on your own, including retribution. Someone
    fucks with your product, distribution, crew? Your crew sends a message back twice as hard. If they cannot, why would any other crews/upper
    management respect/fear/help that weak crew? Just kill the weak and promote a stronger crew in replacement.

In my earlier example, I said if people from the same neighborhood saw that someone else got attacked by an outsider they would be up in arms, that is true when that happens to civilians. When it comes to crime, and hits, you usually do not see the community getting involved, just the organizations affects.

I do not think the rinth needs more teeth, they just need less turnover. How do you do that? Play cautiously until you are a badass and can backup your organization.Help is usually offered when you do not need it, so you do not have to take risk on things that do not warrant it. Armageddon is a game of Chess, not checkers, more so in the rinth than any other place.

[Lizzie]

I think a slice of the problem with regards to Krath's layout:

it assumes that the Organization has an interest in that block. If they do, then the Organization will create circumstances favorable to someone running that block. They'll take out whoever is refusing to cooperate, and bring IN someone who shows promise. They will take this person by the hand, lead him into becoming the boss of the block, and then get him started with a skeleton crew that this new blockboss can then train or replace as needed.

This step of the process doesn't happen often, or efficiently, because this step, in the game, would rely on the staff selecting their potential leader PC. They can absolutely select them from the existing PCs, no need (usually) to put out a role call on the GDB for it. But when the staff hand-picks a PC from the existing character base to take a lead role in something, that is often met with accusations of favoritism.

And yes - it IS favoritism. As it should be. The staff has a better opportunity to see the game world as a whole, and see who will be the best fit for this kind of role. Will it be an ex-Militia Initiate who discovered that the corruption of the Arm put a bad taste in his mouth, and he wants retribution? Will it be some random rinthi half-elf who is starting out, whose player's account notes show an ability to handle difficult leadership roles in the past? Will it be the "next in line" of the current crew?

And then - once the staff picks that person, the staff needs to take that person and help them dig into the role. They need to understand what the role entails, what "current situations" need addressing, and which situations exist, that can be put aside or outright ignored.

When someone moves up in the ranks by attrition, the person in that role shows up with no real understanding of anything at all, OTHER than the very limited and specific tasks that person has been given by their former boss. I think that rather than each player having to make things up as they go along, they should start out with a list of "current events."

What projects was the previous leader working on? Were they any good at it? Who were they working on it with?
Who are the other members of the crew and what are their strengths and weaknesses?
Who, in the southside, currently has problems with the Guild (or just the crew, or both)? Who can be considered in any semblance of an alliance?
Who are the "best" customers, the most reliable, long-lived, and happy to pay for the services? And what kinds of services do they typically request?
Are there any non-members who are being watched for their potential?
Who is the contact person on the east side?
Who is the contact person for the other bar and when was the last time they were seen alive?

Give folks just this kind of information to catch them up, and THEN let them run with it and make up the crew however they choose. But going into it 100% blindly just makes for way too much turnover and distrust within the ranks.

[Alesan]

And yes - it IS favoritism. As it should be.

I'm not sure this definition of favoritism is the same as the general meaning behind the term when it is used.

Picking the right PC for the role is not favoritism. Passing over the right PC for the role in favor of a friend or other preferred person's PC regardless of their suitability for the role definitely is favoritism. At least that's how I understand the term to mean.

I don't have a horse in this race, I just saw that statement and figured I'd weigh in with my view on the actual term itself.

[Veselka]

I agree with Alesan. Hiring the right person for the job because of their qualifications and ability to handle the job functions isn't favoritism, hiring the wrong person for the job because they're your brohomie and don't have the experience or qualifications is favoritism, or more accurately, nepotism.

I'm not sure how I feel about a sponsored role in leadership for the Guild. I think it's probably a good thing, particularly if the crew is lacking cohesion. A good player with decent playtimes can attract people to any clan/area by simply playing and getting shit done. On the flip side, I think it has some chance of failure or 'non starter' sort of vibes, but I think that's true across the board with sponsored roles, be it Noble, GMH Family, or a Byn Sergeant. Really depends on the atmosphere of the game at that point and what and who your organization is left holding the bag for. It can turn people off to the role to apply, accept, and then get in game and realize they have to deal with 100 headaches caused by predecessors in the role. It can be fun, but it can also be a turn off to not be able to jump into your own PC, but have to deal with past mistakes/problems another PC that is dead or stored created. I'm sure with the Guild, you can be inheriting some volatile situations, which can be fun to overcome, but without the skill or ability to change things quickly, you can end up digging yourself into a much deeper hole in the first few days played. Powerful PCs with Powerful Minion PCs can easily exact revenge on you for past grievances you didn't even create, to 'set an example of who's in charge'. I imagine being the butt end of that killing joke isn't too fun.

I also agree with Krath's assessment of crime organizations/neighborhoods where crime exists, but I'm not sure how it would apply in Zalanthas. I suppose either by making the Labyrinth even less accessible to outsiders (not just based on what you are wearing), or having some kind of code that pops new NPCs to assist Labyrinth PCs / NPCs if they are attacked, but that seems abusable and sort of unrealistic to the empty sprawl that is the Labyrinth.

I think GMH Compounds have been mentioned a few times. They aren't impregnable but it certainly is difficult. The quoted problem is 'just outside of the Folley' or what would be considered a clan spot for the Guild -- The same is true for GMH Compounds. I've seen GMH employees and Family assaulted just outside their compound with little to no repercussion or Staff involvement after the fact.

[Kalden]

I played in Guild leadership positions since way back around when I first started in 2003 (altho not really a boss till 2011) as well as more recently, when I kept a Guild boss alive for several RL years. I'll avoid talking about much in the way of specifics, but I do wish there was more staff support. The staffers who were really into the Guild and built up its lore, such as Ath or Xygax, are long gone. When I tried to do something a bit more innovative, like invest in setting up rentals in the 'rinth or building a front organization or a lounge southside to help launder money, there was resistance (from Nergal in particular). There was even resistance to relatively boring investments like sprucing up a room or paying to add another guard to the Folley. There was a window back in 2011 when the staffer (Calavera) was more supportive, but I didn't take advantage of it.

Because of the lack of writing, ICly the Guild has an oral tradition. That limits its institutional knowledge and therefore its ability to be truly organized, sophisticated, and long-lived in its planning and relationships. Also, there's a clan board, but you get access to it relatively quickly (so the deepest secrets don't go there), and your character can't really assume that they know what is in it. Ideally there would be more documentation for the most advanced players on how to survive and thrive in the 'rinth. Admittedly many players do have long-term experience, but I'm not sure how deep that is. Most players never seem to learn how to avoid dying quickly in the 'rinth. The ones who do learn the very hard way that burglars & pickpockets suck and would always die quickly relative to assassins (since their hide maxxed around assassin scan - fortunately this is changed now with the new classes), how to get access to lockpicks, and how to avoid dying (max your sneak & hide, don't meet people in unsafe places).

As far as teeth, I have mixed feelings. I've never played someone who was all that effective at assassinating people, but have played around or hired such people (e.g. Serpent way back or more recently Butcher Brons). You don't have to assassinate Templars to spread dread. There's lots of aides and merchants who are relatively unprotected. One problem, though, is that when you do this, the repercussions from the Templarate can be swift and merciless. When the Guild gets strong, the Templarate can just round up every known Guild and/or 'rinther and execute them. It's happened plenty of times - and in fact a Templar even strolled into the Folley, killed the NPCs, and broke down the back door. In an organization without an oral tradition, that Templar's extended family would be in fear for the rest of their lives, and probably their children's lives, until the debt was settled. As it is, they don't have a care in the world. However, the ultimate lessons is that you can't just have your Guild members openly strolling about and expect to last very long. At the same time, people have been successful at avoiding this type of roundup and leveraging fear. And maybe it should be hard. If you don't take advantage of the Way and meet people in person willy-nilly instead of sending agents to in-person meets, well, yeah, you're going to live a pretty short life as a criminal.

For me, the most important thing is that the Guild, or any clan, avoid being boring. If I can't invest large sums into interesting projects, then it doesn't seem like money has much point. And if money doesn't have much point and you aren't doing risky or interesting jobs, you end up doing a lot of boring typing about chopping up spice or bookkeeping about all the sids you've collected.

[Greve]

I can't help but feel like we have some people arguing that the PC chapter of the Guild is so small and irrelevant to the organization that there really wouldn't and shouldn't be a reaction when someone invariably wipes them out once or twice a year. It's like some people feel that the PC leader of the clan is little more than an errand boy for the higher-ups. While certainly the clanlead isn't the actual ruler of the Guild, they're an underboss. They're at least as significant to the organization as, say, a capo in a typical mafia setup. And, more importantly, since those above the clanlead never really come into play in any way, it stands to reason that one can assume that the veteran PC members of the Guild are included in the documentation for the clan; the parts where it says that the Guild is widely feared and has a finger in most dealings throughout the city. Because if not them, then who? It is a significant role, and the clan is meant to be taken seriously. The fact that it generally isn't is a problem that should be addressed, and players clearly haven't got the means with which to do that themselves.

A junior noble wouldn't be considered to have much of a say in the inner workings of House Borsail, but you'd still very much incur the wrath of their house if you attacked or otherwise crossed that noble. The same should be the case for the Guild. If somebody murders the current clanlead and their top henchman or whatever, and there happen to be no PCs left to do anything about it, I'd expect the clan staff to do something that at least reflects the fact that someone's preying on literal made members of the mafia. I've had Tuluki master bards animated to threaten me for singing satire about their members, so if you can murder full members of the Guild with impunity, there's a huge rift in the Reality vs. Setting department. Yet I've seen that very thing happen time and time and time again, easily 10 times over the years. I have never once seen the higher-ups of the Guild do anything whatsoever, despite having played as a full member of the clan probably about five times. And I don't just mean I haven't seen them retaliate over murder, I mean I've never seen them do anything at all, ever. For all intents and purposes, they do not exist. For all intents and purposes, the Guild really does comprise only the ragtag trio of miscreants and enforcers that make up their PC population at any given time.

We get realistic world responses if we do something crazy and there are no PCs around to react, but somehow this is strangely absent whenever someone does the annual culling of the Guild. It's the one clan for whom the documentation is the furthest from reality, and until that changes, I doubt the 'rinth will have teeth. Or a healthy population.

[Bebop]

Everything Greve just said.  The scariest crime organization in the Known doesn't just randomly give any schmuck access to all of their coin and holdings then watch them get cut down and go lulz oh well.

[Brokkr]

I can't help but feel like we have some people arguing that the PC chapter of the Guild is so small and irrelevant to the organization that there really wouldn't and shouldn't be a reaction when someone invariably wipes them out once or twice a year. It's like some people feel that the PC leader of the clan is little more than an errand boy for the higher-ups. While certainly the clanlead isn't the actual ruler of the Guild, they're an underboss. They're at least as significant to the organization as, say, a capo in a typical mafia setup. And, more importantly, since those above the clanlead never really come into play in any way, it stands to reason that one can assume that the veteran PC members of the Guild are included in the documentation for the clan; the parts where it says that the Guild is widely feared and has a finger in most dealings throughout the city. Because if not them, then who? It is a significant role, and the clan is meant to be taken seriously. The fact that it generally isn't is a problem that should be addressed, and players clearly haven't got the means with which to do that themselves.

A junior noble wouldn't be considered to have much of a say in the inner workings of House Borsail, but you'd still very much incur the wrath of their house if you attacked or otherwise crossed that noble. The same should be the case for the Guild. If somebody murders the current clanlead and their top henchman or whatever, and there happen to be no PCs left to do anything about it, I'd expect the clan staff to do something that at least reflects the fact that someone's preying on literal made members of the mafia. I've had Tuluki master bards animated to threaten me for singing satire about their members, so if you can murder full members of the Guild with impunity, there's a huge rift in the Reality vs. Setting department. Yet I've seen that very thing happen time and time and time again, easily 10 times over the years. I have never once seen the higher-ups of the Guild do anything whatsoever, despite having played as a full member of the clan probably about five times. And I don't just mean I haven't seen them retaliate over murder, I mean I've never seen them do anything at all, ever. For all intents and purposes, they do not exist. For all intents and purposes, the Guild really does comprise only the ragtag trio of miscreants and enforcers that make up their PC population at any given time.

We get realistic world responses if we do something crazy and there are no PCs around to react, but somehow this is strangely absent whenever someone does the annual culling of the Guild. It's the one clan for whom the documentation is the furthest from reality, and until that changes, I doubt the 'rinth will have teeth. Or a healthy population.

Most organizations are not as focused on activities that have the high potential of PK that the Guild (often) is.  Thus they get a lot more rope (to hang themselves?) in terms of stuff that can happen before the higher ups get involved.  And folks tend to get touchy when a Guild NPC is animated and single handedly wipes out most of a player clan, even though that is a realistic response. 

In short, a realistic response may not be the best response for the game.

[Hauwke]

I can't help but feel like we have some people arguing that the PC chapter of the Guild is so small and irrelevant to the organization that there really wouldn't and shouldn't be a reaction when someone invariably wipes them out once or twice a year. It's like some people feel that the PC leader of the clan is little more than an errand boy for the higher-ups. While certainly the clanlead isn't the actual ruler of the Guild, they're an underboss. They're at least as significant to the organization as, say, a capo in a typical mafia setup. And, more importantly, since those above the clanlead never really come into play in any way, it stands to reason that one can assume that the veteran PC members of the Guild are included in the documentation for the clan; the parts where it says that the Guild is widely feared and has a finger in most dealings throughout the city. Because if not them, then who? It is a significant role, and the clan is meant to be taken seriously. The fact that it generally isn't is a problem that should be addressed, and players clearly haven't got the means with which to do that themselves.

A junior noble wouldn't be considered to have much of a say in the inner workings of House Borsail, but you'd still very much incur the wrath of their house if you attacked or otherwise crossed that noble. The same should be the case for the Guild. If somebody murders the current clanlead and their top henchman or whatever, and there happen to be no PCs left to do anything about it, I'd expect the clan staff to do something that at least reflects the fact that someone's preying on literal made members of the mafia. I've had Tuluki master bards animated to threaten me for singing satire about their members, so if you can murder full members of the Guild with impunity, there's a huge rift in the Reality vs. Setting department. Yet I've seen that very thing happen time and time and time again, easily 10 times over the years. I have never once seen the higher-ups of the Guild do anything whatsoever, despite having played as a full member of the clan probably about five times. And I don't just mean I haven't seen them retaliate over murder, I mean I've never seen them do anything at all, ever. For all intents and purposes, they do not exist. For all intents and purposes, the Guild really does comprise only the ragtag trio of miscreants and enforcers that make up their PC population at any given time.

We get realistic world responses if we do something crazy and there are no PCs around to react, but somehow this is strangely absent whenever someone does the annual culling of the Guild. It's the one clan for whom the documentation is the furthest from reality, and until that changes, I doubt the 'rinth will have teeth. Or a healthy population.

Most organizations are not as focused on activities that have the high potential of PK that the Guild (often) is.  Thus they get a lot more rope (to hang themselves?) in terms of stuff that can happen before the higher ups get involved.  And folks tend to get touchy when a Guild NPC is animated and single handedly wipes out most of a player clan, even though that is a realistic response. 

In short, a realistic response may not be the best response for the game.

If they get touchy about realistic responses, that is on them. This is a role-playing game, not a power fantasy.

[Greve]

Most organizations are not as focused on activities that have the high potential of PK that the Guild (often) is.  Thus they get a lot more rope (to hang themselves?) in terms of stuff that can happen before the higher ups get involved.  And folks tend to get touchy when a Guild NPC is animated and single handedly wipes out most of a player clan, even though that is a realistic response. 

In short, a realistic response may not be the best response for the game.

Well, I put it to you that other than the fundamental design of the clan, the main reason that the Guild has this "high potential of PK" is that there's just nothing else for the clan to do. You end up in a situation where you're playing an actual outright member of the mafia, yet you have no built-in ways to be relevant except for PKing. You're told to sell spice, and when that inevitably fails because spice is a total dead end due to various coded problems, you sit there going "now what?" Then one day someone tries to hire you to do a hit, and whether you fail or succeed, it was something to do. It was a reason to exist, often after months without any such thing. If the Guild was not such a hollow shell of facades and make-believe, there might not be this crippling case of PK-or-nothing. Either way, it's quite clear after all these years that something doesn't work, and it is my perception that the "leave them completely to their own devices" approach is part of it. It's non-support. The Guild has nothing to work with. The only time I've ever known the clan to really matter was when three mindbenders and an immortal demon were in it. Since that wacky era, it has been non-stop failure for a decade. They just never manage to become relevant for any length of time.

If you want to have a clan in the game that is tantamount to the literal mafia, you need to give it the backing that lets the clan operate in such a way. If you don't want to give the clan that kind of backing, there shouldn't be a clan that's meant to be regarded as the mafia. There's a disconnect here between what people seem to expect of the Guild and what it's actually capable of, because with absolutely zero staff support whatsoever, it's just not going to do what it says on the tin. That's just the way it is. I say try it once and see if the world ends. I expect it doesn't. The Guild has less staff support (of the tangible kind, not the respond-to-requests kind) than any given shitty tribe that nobody ever cared about, yet it's designed as if it needs more than any other clan. Give it the support it deserves for two months, and if the game doesn't fall apart in the process, keep it up.

Otherwise it's basically like if the militia had no templars and no NPC soldiers to aid in law enforcement--in other words, utter futility and pointlessness.

[Bebop]

I just came here to say I agree with Greve and Hauwke and to address this.

Here is where the confusion comes in for me when talking about the original subject and I would like staff to weigh in.

Are the guild "crews" the equivalent of corner owners of the real life crips/bloods/MS-13/Latin Kings etc?
    Assuming this is the case, if one of the "corner" leaders got killed on their block, Upper management would expect the rest of their block gang
    to handle it, or they get wiped out and they move on to another crew that is capable of holding/protecting their corner and generating revenue.
    It is a dog eat dog world in the rinth/ghetto, and if you and your crew cannot handle your own shit on your own, including retribution. Someone
    fucks with your product, distribution, crew? Your crew sends a message back twice as hard. If they cannot, why would any other crews/upper
    management respect/fear/help that weak crew? Just kill the weak and promote a stronger crew in replacement.

In my earlier example, I said if people from the same neighborhood saw that someone else got attacked by an outsider they would be up in arms, that is true when that happens to civilians. When it comes to crime, and hits, you usually do not see the community getting involved, just the organizations affects

There's clearly some confusion here.  A Guild Boss isn't running a block.  They effectively have a huge amount of trust from their syndicate and are effectively seeing vast amounts of holdings and property.  The Guild losing someone they can trust that much is a huge blow.

I do not think the rinth needs more teeth, they just need less turnover. How do you do that? Play cautiously until you are a badass and can backup your organization.Help is usually offered when you do not need it, so you do not have to take risk on things that do not warrant it. Armageddon is a game of Chess, not checkers, more so in the rinth than any other place.

This sentiment right here is exactly what I want to address.

This is the anti-thesis of everything I believe when I play.  This is what the game needs less of.  You absolutely should NOT be afraid to jump in and start plot lines if you are not a coded badass.

You do not have to have your coded skills up to be a badass.  A Borsail Lord could have novice piercing weapons or no piercing weapons.  And he can be a badass.  Why?  Because of the social mores of the game.  Because of the lore.  Because of the VNPC backing.

This is exactly what I was saying.  If the NPC and VNPC do not work or react, if the staff do not reinforce game lore and consequences this is just a coded game with RP as back up.   This kind of RP stifling is exactly what I'm saying.  I do NOT want to see people afraid to RP without trying to minmax their skills.

A Guild Boss is the same way.  Even if they have no skills.  They ARE a badass.  Because they have the holdings and trust of the most feared crime syndicate in the Known world that has been established for as long as anyone remembers.  Everything in this game can not and should not come down to who is l33t codedly.  Who has perraine.  Otherwise, this ceases to be an RP game.  If you take out a Guild Boss or a Junior Noble or an Agent you better be scared about social consequences.

There also needs to be consistency.  I have seen Kurac threaten to pull their whole ass out've Nak for one Agent's death.  And then other times someone can get ganked in front of NPCs and PCs with nary an eye bat.  If the Guild is really as scary as the docs say, there should absolutely be consequences to thinking that the only way a Guild Boss is a badass is if they twink up their skills.

Ugh, I hate that.  It is so against everything I believe about this game.  And constantly skill crunching and perraine abuse etc really, really needs to be addressed.

[Hauwke]

In agreement with Bebop here. If I stab PC1, who was fucking PC2, I would vaguely worry about comeuppance. Wouldn't I?

But I could with any character I wanted to go and wipe the floor with the Guild and I would get away with it? Absolutely not how it should be. Regardless of if it stifles RP the furtherment of a character, 100%
try to kill the fuck out of anyone who thinks it's remotely smart to mess with the Guild. If they survive the attempts? Cool, RP hook to play off of.

As I have said in multiple threads lately, paraphrasing very slightly: your PC got their leg broke for being an idiot? Boo fucking hoo. You are the one who poked a mul until it tore shreds of you.

[titansfan]

So what I'm hearing is that the Rinth needs a coded c-elf clan and the Guild needs some structure and Imm love to more support player survivability?

[Krath]

To address Bebop and Hauwke's most recent post and dont want the spam of quoting

Bebop's 1st Point about my confusion:
    That you for clarifying this, I thought that the crews run by pcs were just that, Crews and no one in them was an underboss/boss but merely the equivalent of a lieutenant in a real life organized crime syndicate. Can staff please clarify this?

Bebop's 2nd Point:
    Perhaps I did not write my point clearly enough, especially with the talk about skills and poisons in this thread so let me clarify. When I said Play cautiously until you are a badass and can back up your organization, I meant it in the same sense you wrote and not having anything to do with coded skills. If it is a leadership role, the LEADER should not really have to worry about coded skills or put themselves in a position where they have to unless it is a last resort, that is what you have underlings for. If the leader's underlings cannot back up the bosses' talk and execute whatever promises, threats made or execute retribution, then the leader should not be talking/acting in such a way, unless ordered by their boss. 

If the leader does talk or act in a manner that requires a lot of muscle to back their words/actions up and they do not have it, or the backing of their boss for those words/actions, they should expect retribution and not be surprised if they do not get back up from the family, nor should they.

Seriously, that kind of stuff happens all the time in organized crime syndicates. Someone feels like they are a hot shot, the next Boss of bosses, and tries to do some wild shit to make a name for themselves, then their whole crew is gone and no one in the family really cares, except maybe those remaining from deceased person's crew. 

The "Boss" should not have to worry about fighting, that is why they are the boss. I do think, Bosses should practice how to defend themselves so they have enough time to run away from an attack if necessary.

Also, your examples about Kurac having their agent killed and threatening to pull their entire operation out of nak vs the others that have gotten killed and no one batted an eye:  Maybe there were reasons no one batted an eye that you and others were not privy to. Junior nobles, Agents, Merchants get killed, how their families reacts to such depends on actions we may or may not know about OOC or ICly.

To Hauwke's Point:
   I absolutely agree. If there are PCs going around and just PKing and fucking with Guild members, for no fucking reason, then said PCs should have the full PC, NPC, and VNPC ire of the entire guild come down on them.

[Riev]

To hop in on points flying around:

The Guild is primarily known as "the place where PKers go to train to be PKers" OOCly, and ICly is "the place you go to learn to be an assassin".

Spice, through all its iterations, isn't very sought after for various reasons.
Theft is even less sought after, because everything is kept in a pouch, in a heavy bag, inside a closeable pack. (been told, ICly, to do this to avoid thieves)
Its easier, codedly, to kill someone than it is to mug them or cause any non-lethal harm.

So this leaves the Guild as a place where people kind of just dull around... maybe join the Byn to get tuff before coming back to provide some basic services. You can't kill other humans (without serious consequence). You can't kill elves (without serious consequence). So if you, as a Guild Leader, need underlings to support your ambitions, you're going to be as hard pressed as a Noble with STANDARDS for their aides.

Documentation-wise, there could be some cleanup or clarification. The Guild being a PC-run clan (mostly) works, but lately there have been problems. Is it lack of staff support? Lack of followthrough by the players? Lack of coded ability? Lack of congruent playtimes?

I think there's more than just "Guild should virtually punish people" to give it back its teeth. It might require conversations with your potential/current Guild Leaders, and not just "do whatever". Or maybe don't toss plot hooks, with absolutely no Organizational Backing, and expect a crew of 2 newbie miscreants and a Fence to pull off some huge Heist in a city with a [redacted].

[lairos]

I see some asking for realistic responses for one single part of the game. Whether it is by coded responses, staff responses or otherwise. There is a very big reason staff have been more or less hands off in many instances and pushing the PLAYERS to do something about it. If staff jumped in to make a "realistic" response for every single thing that happens IC? I am pretty sure you'd be changing your tune here as well. This goes from the lowest of clans to the highest because at the tops of these Clans/Organizations/Houses and whatever is some really scary shit. This is also why the glass ceilings are in place to not allow players of Senior Nobles or Red Robes. Staff really like to try and keep things on a level where PC's can react to rather than what could occur because of the higher levels, but that is not to say that if you're running around being stupid that you won't get yours swiftly.

I am still waiting for someone to explain the difference of a guilder being killed in their territory or a jaxa pah in theirs compared to someone like an AOD Sergeant, Noble or Templar in theirs? All of these have their own pull and some have their own power.

Also, be aware that there are many layers to Armageddon and deaths within to whoever it may be. Just because YOU as a player don't see something happen does not mean something did not in the background or at a level you can not see.  I've seen a Noble killed in the streets on many occasions and never actually saw anything done about it, but it doesn't mean nothing happened. If you are seen as an issue for your House or Organization? You'll be stamped out or allowed to be taken because it is better for them to do so in the long run and the loss here is far smaller than what it could be. This means, while you CAN come out swinging and you never should "require" coded skills...There is still a political system in play and it also has many levels. Everyone answers to someone and if that someone is getting issues? These things tend to run downhill much harder.

[Potaje]

That post sort of makes me cringe because it shows that perhaps those roles of leadership have been locked to a select group, perhaps you should not keep playing lord or lady buttercup lollipop. Perhaps there needs to be more emphasis on staff letting others move up in the food chain and maybe those that have continually taken the roles should be a supporting cast for some change for them, others and the role and inspiration of the game world.

Also it seems like hiding away because one is afraid of being insta killed seems completely on that player. There are always ways for the wealthy to secure their being so they are not cloistered. And why play this game if you want to play safe, seems like this is the wrong game to worry to a fault about such a thing. I take this game as a game of risk taking.

As for insta killing being uniquely more abundantly new, that in my perspective is not true for the player base as a whole.  There have always been those characters out there that can, did and do have the ability to insta kill and not just of the assassin class.

[Lutagar]

Also it seems like hiding away because one is afraid of being insta killed seems completely on that player. There are always ways for the wealthy to secure their being so they are not cloistered.

What ways?

[Dar]

There was a number of rinthi gang leaders with 'zero' combat skill that thrived for the longest of times.

I forgot his name now. But the creator of eastside kings elf gang had a lot of elves following him that codedly were very adept in combat. While he himself was basically completely untrained. He literally had no time to practice skills, he was too busy schmoozing. I ran a character that had some 'sikrits' about him, but they werent realized for a good RL year. For the first year, I was running around with 84 max hp and merchant defense.  Blue, another long lived character, enjoyed a rather long lifespan without being anywhere near codedly powerful.

It is, ofcourse, impossible to guarantee absolute protection. I mean it's the rinth. Nothing is stopping someone from rolling up a high strength dwarf who does nothing but twinks, sleeps in the sewers, and only really exists to pull off PKs on the street.  Guess what, people like that exist IRL. The junkies whom you can give a pistol to and they'll just walk in on someone important and powerful and blow his brains out, no care for what will come next. Or kids. That's how Omar died, right? . (The Wire reference)

So absolute protection to the level of Nobility, should not exist. But there are ways of staying alive. In fact, they are "too" easy to be honest. Everyone are so starved for interaction and for things to happen, the moment you show promise to be someone constructive, interesting, and fun people are willing to put their own characters at risk to keep yours alive.

During my last rinthi lifespan. I saw so many guild bosses that show up, act as extreme tough shits, and then die to something silly. It's hard to really expect a serious Guild vNPC reaction. Although that vnpc reaction "does" happen if those bosses deaths happen to be done on purpose by PC hands with stupid reasons. And please do not think that the guild does not react to their own being killed off. They just do it 'after' the person is killed off . And depending on the person's value, the reaction could be strong to mild. And if there is still playerbase available, then instead of taking the brunt of activity virtually, I imagine the guild would just quest the survivors to enact revenge instead.