Upgrading subguild --> extended subguild

[Harmless]

Since many extended subguilds are higher powered variants of a regular subguild, could there be a system whereby if a character passes certain requirements and the player spends the karma, that an already-in-play character could advance from their regular subguild into one of its enhanced/extended versions?

I just post this as someone who frequently lives for a very long time and has a bit of ennui over the years as the character reaches a ceiling that I can't really explain via IC means.

[mansa]

Sorta like a remort system?

Or a barter/trade skill system?

[number13]

I wish there was a set way to horsetrade for skills, as a character develops. I had an character of class X, but as I learned about that character through play, the class I selected no longer made total sense. In particular, the key skill of the class was never going be used by this character.

I actually asked staff to take out that key skill in exchange for another...I was a super greedy in what I was asking for, granted, but instead of a solid 'no, we don't do that', it would be nice if there was a procedure for some modifications. Like, every 10 days played, you can review your skills and trade skill X for skill Y, within reason. Like, it should impossible to trade your way into having master stealth and master backstab on the same character.

As for extended versus non-extended, I don't know. Even though I have karma, sometimes I play throwaways that are karma 0, and I feel like maybe I should be forced to stick with that choice through out the character's life, if it turns out they aren't so much throwaways.

All that said, there are some clear instances where skills are added to characters through gameplay. For example, read/write.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Allowing too much freedom with this might cause the ever feared, everyone opts for the same skills sort of thing, I imagine perception being a prime choice, so I'm not really for it.

However, I would be alright with the idea that 'anyone can attempt anything' just keeping the skill hidden but allowing success up to novice level, whatever that is. I know this is possible to some degree already, with skills like skinning, but I think it could be expanded. No reason why I shouldn't be able to 'try' and backstab a guy, even if I suck at it.

[RogueGunslinger]

Allowing too much freedom with this might cause the ever feared, everyone opts for the same skills sort of thing,

How?

[Lizzie]

Since many extended subguilds are higher powered variants of a regular subguild, could there be a system whereby if a character passes certain requirements and the player spends the karma, that an already-in-play character could advance from their regular subguild into one of its enhanced/extended versions?

I just post this as someone who frequently lives for a very long time and has a bit of ennui over the years as the character reaches a ceiling that I can't really explain via IC means.

I don't find it hard at all to explain that via IC means, and it happens to my characters often. My explanation: "this is the best I can do." It's totally believable, it makes sense, and for those who buy into it, it's even realistic.

Your Kadian jeweler who has the skill to master, but can't "mastercraft" thing - is really awesome at copying other peoples' already-made designs. But she just never had the knack for creating her own designs. She lacks that creative spark.

Your combat-heavy character is amazing with his weapons, and is even great on a mount. But like many people who just flat out can't coordinate properly to play the drums, your character just can't quite get the knack of riding while both hands are occupied.

Your rinthi dwarf who can climb any roof in the city, who joins the Byn to escape from his miserable lot in life, is overwhelmed by the vastness of the shield wall, and just can't climb to the very top.

Even your mage, who can do x, y, and z at mon power level, but can't even figure out how to cast q-spell that is related to the element - can explain that the element itself has simply chosen not to provide the means of casting that spell to you. The element is more powerful than your character, afterall**

Anything you "can't do" can easily be explained by your character, as long as you, the player, embrace the fact that they can't do it.

**this line added in edit - and a note: I choose not to play elemental mages because I don't like having limited elemental lists, not because I "can't explain it icly"

[Harmless]

Liz, I don't mind the category of skill ceiling excuses you show, the "I just can't figure this out," up to a limit. When literal years have passed, it gets a little harder.  As for lacking a creative spark, I have no problem with the limits on custom crafting as they are and I am not looking to change them. When you break down the upgrades I am discussing, it amounts to no more than 1-3 skills added or a few caps raised on pre-existing skills.

JohnMichaelHenry:my point is to restrict the freedom of these changes just to their upgraded variant(s) from whatever subguild you start with. Less "remort" which is a ridiculous hack n slash mud term and more just skill growth in the same direction after a long enough time has passed that the upper limits of the original subguild were reached long ago.

[Lizzie]

Liz, I don't mind the category of skill ceiling excuses you show, the "I just can't figure this out," up to a limit. When literal years have passed, it gets a little harder.  As for lacking a creative spark, I have no problem with the limits on custom crafting as they are and I am not looking to change them. When you break down the upgrades I am discussing, it amounts to no more than 1-3 skills added or a few caps raised on pre-existing skills.

JohnMichaelHenry:my point is to restrict the freedom of these changes just to their upgraded variant(s) from whatever subguild you start with. Less "remort" which is a ridiculous hack n slash mud term and more just skill growth in the same direction after a long enough time has passed that the upper limits of the original subguild were reached long ago.

As I said - if you buy into the concept of realism, these limits are realistic. Not everyone has the capacity to be a great ice skater. But as long as you have two feet and both legs work, you can get on the ice and probably manage to go around the rink without falling, and maybe even learn how to skate backward and do a figure 8 and an arabesque.

Not everyone has the capacity to be a ninja fighter. Maybe you'll learn how to fall on a mat without getting hurt. You might learn how to kick, and do fairly well. You might even learn how to use blades and nunchakus. But practice doesn't really make perfect, if you lack coordination.

Not everyone has the capacity to be a fashion designer, though most people will be able to learn how to do a passing hem stitch and maybe make a pair of elastic-waist pants. Not everyone has the capacity to be a championship golfer, but most people will still find some amusement with a putter on a miniature golf course. Not everyone has the capacity to be a CIA covert operative, but still might be really good playing hide and seek with their kids. Not everyone has the capacity to speak flawless Hadza language, but you might manage to get across the need to find the nearest bathing spot without mistakenly insulting your host if you visit a tribe in Tanzania.

No matter how much you practice at certain things, you will never become masterful at them.  You have the knack for this, and that, but not the other thing. That is life outside the game, and it is reflected by the code in the game.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Sorry Harmless. I should have used the quote thingy. I was referring more to this:

I wish there was a set way to horsetrade for skills, as a character develops. I had an character of class X, but as I learned about that character through play, the class I selected no longer made total sense. In particular, the key skill of the class was never going be used by this character.

I actually asked staff to take out that key skill in exchange for another...I was a super greedy in what I was asking for, granted, but instead of a solid 'no, we don't do that', it would be nice if there was a procedure for some modifications. Like, every 10 days played, you can review your skills and trade skill X for skill Y, within reason. Like, it should impossible to trade your way into having master stealth and master backstab on the same character.

As for extended versus non-extended, I don't know. Even though I have karma, sometimes I play throwaways that are karma 0, and I feel like maybe I should be forced to stick with that choice through out the character's life, if it turns out they aren't so much throwaways.

All that said, there are some clear instances where skills are added to characters through gameplay. For example, read/write.

And, that should answer your question too, RGS.

I probably shoulda just responded to the OP but, it happens.

[Mercy]

I feel like I probably shouldn't chime in here but I have too much free time so I can't help myself.

Considering the extended subguilds are still adhering to the limits set by the game, I don't see how being able to spend karma post-chargen on character that has hit their skill ceiling for an extended period of time with a basic subguild as breaching the limits set by the game. Considering that it's not an automatic system, and would be judged on a case-by-case basis, it seems like the sort of thing that can't actually be abused and would only be a benefit in the cases where it gets approved. Characters can grow a tremendous amount during their lifespan, this would reflex IC longevity and dedication.

So, I'm all for OP's idea.

[Heade]

I'm not a fan of the idea for a few reasons.

First, it's not necessary for everyone to be able to improve every skill beyond a certain point over time. As Lizzie has pointed out, some people are just limited in their talent for a given thing.

Second, with a system that is NOT automated, it creates more work for staff, which I know they aren't trying to do. They're not trying to make the game more labor intensive. I imagine they're trying to do the opposite: Make much of the more mundane stuff more automated, so staff can focus on the parts of the game they enjoy more: Telling stories and animating NPCs.

And finally, no disrespect to staff as I truly think our current staffers are some of the best in Arm history with regard to fairness and communication, but any time you implement a system that requires that human component to get approved or not, favoritism, real or only perceived, will make it's presence known.

I would only be in favor of something like this if the process for post-character creation karma spending were automated. If we have the karma, there shouldn't be a human element to the spending process, since the karma is there to act as a filter for those deemed responsible enough to handle power or special roles to begin with. And even then, I don't think it's really necessary due to point #1 above.

Further, in order to automate it, each non-extended subguild would need to have an extended subguild variant before the idea would become plausible. If a staffer wanted to take on a huge project like that, making all the subs and matching ESGs make sense, and automating the system of spending karma on ESGs after the fact, I'd support it. Honestly, I think if we did it that way, as a major project, I'd like that idea better than what we have now. It would allow players to sort of "dip their toes in the water" with a character concept without spending karma. Then, if they enjoyed the character and lasted awhile, they could make the karma investment and extend their subguild skill caps.

It would also make it so that people didn't "lose karma" on a mundane PC that quickly died to something stupid, or that ended up with terrible stats and thus died in a spar or something. People might be more willing to spend karma on mundane PCs if they're more sure of the longevity of said PC.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Well said, Heade.

I like every bit of that. +1

[lostinspace]

Everything Headed said.

Also as there are magickal touched subclasses, once the mundane system was completed we could potentially use it for a touched -> other aspect system as well.

[Heade]

I wouldn't support my idea for magick subguilds. That's a different animal altogether, and I prefer having to make that decision at the start. As I said previously in my idea: I think it could help encourage more people to spend karma on MUNDANE PCs. If the post-creation karma expenditure was done across the board, it wouldn't have that effect.

And I'd like to see more mundane PCs that stick around in the game longer.

[Dar]

I would actually love the ability for mundane PCs  to have the option of upgrading their options at the cost of karma. I dont really truly care what these options are. But if you have a long lived PC and you've  regenned your karma a good year ago, it might be cool to reward that longevity by being able to regen that karma. And if during your gameplay you were so awesome that you've been awarded karma, you can use it to maybe do something to your current PC.

Again. I dont really care what these options 'are'. Maybe something as silly as buying another stat reroll at the cost of 1 karma, or something similar. But as long as these options exist, it would be great.

[Dar]

I actually like the idea of paying 1 karma to reroll your stats more and more.

No longer do you feel meh when you came up with this awesome character, but rolled abysmally. So badly, you dont feel inclined to spend the time with that character. Just play and enjoy, knowing that sooner, or later, you might have an opportunity to reroll those stats to get something better. The longer you play, the more chances you will have, as your karma gradually regens.

[Hauwke]

Rather than rerolling, and potentially los iing all that strength on a brawny guy, mayhaps the ideal solution would be to allow a singular point to be put into a stat.

[Heade]

Rather than rerolling, and potentially los iing all that strength on a brawny guy, mayhaps the ideal solution would be to allow a singular point to be put into a stat.

I like this idea better, I think. A reroll could potentially be jarring to the character during RP for lots of other characters that know them. A single stat bump fits better for a karma spend, I think. Also, we can already reroll stats and reroll undo. I don't think I've ever had TERRIBLE stats on both rolls.

[Dar]

Well. Whichever really.

Straight out adding stats by use of karma may produce an ultra powerful being. While granting reroll options doesn't. Even if rerolled into some absolutely awesome stats, in the end there was a mathematical chance that the person rolled those stats to begin with. So things remain fair between karma people and those with no karma.

As far as being jarring regarding the loss of a stat that is vital for the character's persona. The way I envisioned, the reroll undo would be available. So basically, a player would have a chance to get the stats he is satisfied with as months roll on by. As long as he keeps the character alive and thriving of course. I imagine it would significantly lower the rate of suicide over poorly rolled stats, if a person can just wait a month and try again, instead of wasting an excellent character concept.

[Heade]

Yeah, the sudden loss of stats isn't what I was talking about being jarring. I was more thinking of a known weak character suddenly going from poor to Very Good strength. The IC jump in stats would be a huge difference on an established PC. On the other hand, going from very good to exceptional in a single stat isn't that big of a jump and can be explained by simple conditioning.

Sure, you might get some people with AI in a stat if going with the latter system. Since that is possible under the current system as well, I don't see a major problem with that. And in order to have some sort of upper limit to avoid super characters, you could even make the karma spend not work to raise a stat that is already at exceptional or AI.

[Dar]

But ... People's stats are already changing. When you age you get stronger. Past a certain point you get weaker. It's silly to think that "any" physical and mental attributes will remain the same. I was a skinny weakling at 18, at 20 nobody in their right mind would be called me a weakling. By 35 ... Nobody would call me skinny

People change. It shouldn't be jarring at all. Or at least it should be as jarring as someone's sdesc change request going through and suddenly the youth you've been hanging with is suddenly a man.

[Hauwke]

In my mind, the increase of stat would come down to conditioning or training.

Strength? Dude has been fighting every single day of his life for the last 30 years.

Wisdom? Dude has been thinking in how to better do fight his whole life.

[Lizzie]

In my mind, the increase of stat would come down to conditioning or training.

Strength? Dude has been fighting every single day of his life for the last 30 years.

Wisdom? Dude has been thinking in how to better do fight his whole life.

Dude fighting every day for last 30 years is worn out, used, battered, bone-weary, and likely brain-damaged and suffering from joint pain and who the hell knows what else.

Wisdom? Dude chose to fight every day for 30 years. He's not all that wise in the first place. And all that brain damage from fighting every day for the past 30 years isn't helping.

[Hauwke]

Anecdotally speaking, and also historically, those that were exceptional at fighting, did not get hurt as bad as you would think.

That said, if people can be fine with taking a mace to the head and not RP a concussion and it's lingering effects then I am sure we can all agree that RPing an increase In strength is okay.

Also that being said, if people are okay with RPing their characters as healthy and fully grown in a world setting all about dehydration and starvation of the lower class it should also be okay.

[Dar]

Both perfect examples of stats going up and going down. There is a plethora of reasons why stats would change across the character's life.


I've long since learned not to pay "too" great of attention to my stats. But ... I still freaking do. And while the poor stats dont outweigh a great concept, they sort of weigh heavily on an average concept. If that concept got involved into awesome stuff, well then ... I guess I'll live with those stats. But if that concept died before getting involved, I'll admit I will not be too sad.

Sometimes you come up with an awesome concept and are itching to play it out. Only to roll up horrid stats. Oh well you think to yourself, that's not the most important thing. And it's true and so you continue play. But by god, at least for me, it is still feels like something 'meh' at the back of my head.

But if I had an ability to reroll once a month at the cost of a karma, I wouldnt have a problem at all. I wouldnt feel 'meh'. I wouldnt care. I would just continue to do my own thing and if that character lives for a year doing things that's totally unrelated to stats, I would have ... however many chances I dont know how karma regen works. Some whatever amount of chances to get stats that I would find more acceptable.

I wouldnt continue rerolling it non stop to get all 4 AIs. Because ... it does cost karma, so once I'm satisfied. Once I dont feel like the 'meh' nagging at me, I'm satisfied and I'll let the karma accumulate to whatever it is I plan to do with it for my next role.