Roleplaying theft?

[Nile]

A few things lately regarding the steal command have bugged me. Just seems like there is complete disregard for RP in a lot of the occasions. I'm ALL for having sneaky types thieving, but some things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game for me because it just looks to me like the code is being abused. {EDIT} To anyone that does this with semotes and hemotes, forget about it. That's how it's meant to work. I still like to be mocked after I'm robbed though - that's more the point of this post than some whinge about how the steal command code itself has always worked in the 10+ years I've been around. It's always been easy to abuse, but I'm interested in the way we go about it IG.

I'm a huge fan of actually emoting when I'm hidden, even if it alerts people, because it creates a scene. Coming in, doing peek all, steal everything of worth, and leave - even if you are semoting and hemoting some magical feat of thievery - just seems to have the effect of everyone leaving taverns and reducing interaction overall between PCs. Having a thief on the loose that doesn't use their ultra stealth to just vanish and instead causes some chaos as well, is much more fun imo! Would love to see more of that. {EDIT} Anyone's character who this doesn't suit for good reasons, that's totally understandable too. I just want to promote a bit more chaos.

And sorry to anyone that is a legendary thief that knows their shit. I've had brilliant encounters of being robbed - love it - and absolutely none of them involved the steal command without at least SOME interaction.

[Synthesis]

When you try to kill someone, they can be 3 or more leagues away by the time you can recover enough to send another command.

When someone is shooting arrows at you, you can't take cover.

You can't shoot fireballs at distance.  You can instantly cover a league's worth of distance and charge at someone while they're shooting fireballs at you.

The crime code doesn't react to you hauling couches out of apartments.

You can craft multiple intricately-carved chests in a single morning of crafting.

A giant lizard only yields enough meat and shell to for about two days' worth of eating and two pieces of armor.

You can fail to skin said giant lizard and completely ruin the hide, meat, and shell, mysteriously.

You can kill said giant lizard BY YOURSELF with bone swords, and you don't even really have to be that good at fighting, in the grand scheme of things.

There are a lot of silly things in the game that we deal with.  Highlighting the "steal" command as being abused is literally just sour grapes at being a victim.  It takes a long time, a lot of patience, a lot of code knowledge, and a lot of luck to become a master pickpocket.  It's a lot easier to respect that and accept that you got robbed than it is to get incensed about it on the GDB.

[MeTekillot]

People think serial PKers are the true terror of Armageddon, but it's really pickpockets.

[John]

Nope. I've got to strongly disagree. I've seen a very specific type of item being stolen across multiple people, which is making me think that there might be some elf thing going on.

If you see poor RP, report it. But unlike the vaguebooking doom and gloom commentary on the GDB about how apartments are worthless, I have not seen excessive stealing from apartments. Likewise I've heard of one poorly stolen item, and it created quite a bit of RP as a result. So ultimately that's a win and hopefully staff left a comment on the thief's account notes if necessary.

We have seen an explosion of city elf PCs, which according to GDB dogma, is a worthless race and contributes nothing to the game. Rather than vague book what could quite possibly be actions by them, I would just report the actions and let staff deal with it.

Finally: Get over having something stolen from you on occasion. I've certainly lost quite a bit recently (small items over an extended period of time). People dont bitch about unrealistic hunting, foraging or crafting. But the second a dagger or bit of coin gets stolen its the end of the world.

Finally I dont think emoting should be mandatory. It gives pickpockets two points of failure and given failing even once is a death sentence its simply too high of a risk with literally no benefit.

[Nile]

When you try to kill someone, they can be 3 or more leagues away by the time you can recover enough to send another command.

When someone is shooting arrows at you, you can't take cover.

You can't shoot fireballs at distance.  You can instantly cover a league's worth of distance and charge at someone while they're shooting fireballs at you.

The crime code doesn't react to you hauling couches out of apartments.

You can craft multiple intricately-carved chests in a single morning of crafting.

A giant lizard only yields enough meat and shell to for about two days' worth of eating and two pieces of armor.

You can fail to skin said giant lizard and completely ruin the hide, meat, and shell, mysteriously.

You can kill said giant lizard BY YOURSELF with bone swords, and you don't even really have to be that good at fighting, in the grand scheme of things.

There are a lot of silly things in the game that we deal with.  Highlighting the "steal" command as being abused is literally just sour grapes at being a victim.  It takes a long time, a lot of patience, a lot of code knowledge, and a lot of luck to become a master pickpocket.  It's a lot easier to respect that and accept that you got robbed than it is to get incensed about it on the GDB.

rofl I agree there is lots of stuff we have to deal with. But that's not my point. The point is about making scenes fun. Equipment really isn't hard to obtain for certain characters so sour grapes is a bit much to presume. I'm specifically referring incidents that don't add much to the game because there just...wasn't any fun RP involved. The only effects are all the PCs leaving the taverns almost immediately. Think of muh tavern sitters!

I've seen this happen heaps in the past when I played, btw, as well as great scenes that involved RP, but it just seems if there's a lot of sneaky types or some real prominent ones it'd be cool to make things fun for others as well as yourself. Give an echo of faint laughter at the PC after you steal something. Anything! Give us sour grapes! I want sour grapes, damn it! That's why I'm here! I'm not a fan of OOC going, okay something stolen, we'll get another....Possible some people get angry about it, but I've never actually had something unique stolen from me so hard to tell how I'd react.

[Nile]

Nope. I've got to strongly disagree. I've seen a very specific type of item being stolen across multiple people, which is making me think that there might be some elf thing going on.

If you see poor RP, report it. But unlike the vaguebooking doom and gloom commentary on the GDB about how apartments are worthless, I have not seen excessive stealing from apartments. Likewise I've heard of one poorly stolen item, and it created quite a bit of RP as a result. So ultimately that's a win and hopefully staff left a comment on the thief's account notes if necessary.

We have seen an explosion of city elf PCs, which according to GDB dogma, is a worthless race and contributes nothing to the game. Rather than vague book what could quite possibly be actions by them, I would just report the actions and let staff deal with it.

Finally: Get over having something stolen from you on occasion. I've certainly lost quite a bit recently (small items over an extended period of time). People dont bitch about unrealistic hunting, foraging or crafting. But the second a dagger or bit of coin gets stolen its the end of the world.

Finally I dont think emoting should be mandatory. It gives pickpockets two points of failure and given failing even once is a death sentence its simply too high of a risk with literally no benefit.

Not going to report it as they might have been doing excellent semotes/hemotes etc. But it's nice to throw flavour in as well...Personally, anyway.

[Nile]

Hmm, if everyone keeps presuming this is something I have against sneaky types I'll take the thread down. Was more intended to prompt discussion about thieving and how folks go about it.

There are certainly some occasions where I wouldn't throw out an emote due to the danger, but in the vast majority I would, particularly when you're an ultra ninja who vanish again anyway.

[John]

Not going to report it as they might have been doing excellent semotes/hemotes etc.

Then we might as well lock this thread because it seems to have no point. When you said

A few things lately regarding the steal command have bugged me. Just seems like there is complete disregard for RP in a lot of the occasions. I'm ALL for having sneaky types thieving, but some things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game for me because it just looks to me like the code is being abused.

What you apparently meant to say was

I have no idea how good or bad the theft RP has been. I'm not going to make any comments or aspersions against the current people playing thieves because I have no information on this subject.

I don't see the point of having a thread about something your claiming to have no direct knowledge on.

[Nile]

Not going to report it as they might have been doing excellent semotes/hemotes etc.

Then we might as well lock this thread because it seems to have no point. When you said

A few things lately regarding the steal command have bugged me. Just seems like there is complete disregard for RP in a lot of the occasions. I'm ALL for having sneaky types thieving, but some things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game for me because it just looks to me like the code is being abused.

What you apparently meant to say was

I have no idea how good or bad the theft RP has been. I'm not going to make any comments or aspersions against the current people playing thieves because I have no information on this subject.

I don't see the point of having a thread about something your claiming to have no direct knowledge on.

If you read past the first line you'll note the emphasis I placed on RP. Should I edit the first line?

EDIT: Not for every incident can I comment. There's certainly some I could send reports about. But all of these are old now.

[John]

Hmm, if everyone keeps presuming this is something I have against sneaky types I'll take the thread down. Was more intended to prompt discussion about thieving and how folks go about it.

There are certainly some occasions where I wouldn't throw out an emote due to the danger, but in the vast majority I would, particularly when you're an ultra ninja who vanish again anyway.

You appeared to have a problem with some thieves. I think such issues are better dealt with via character complaints then vaguebooking on the forum. Because then your not assuming your limited perspective is the correct perspective. Also when I said "get over having something stolen" I wasn't strictly speaking about you directly but the playerbase at large (or at least those who come to the GDB and complain about it or who react so badly as to avoid going to public venues because "oh noes! I might get my mount ticket stolen").

If you read past the first line you'll note the emphasis I placed on RP. Should I edit the first line?

No. If you think there's poor RP on something you have limited knowledge of, don't vaguebook on the GDB, put in a complaint to staff.

[Nile]

Hmm, if everyone keeps presuming this is something I have against sneaky types I'll take the thread down. Was more intended to prompt discussion about thieving and how folks go about it.

There are certainly some occasions where I wouldn't throw out an emote due to the danger, but in the vast majority I would, particularly when you're an ultra ninja who vanish again anyway.

You appeared to have a problem with some thieves. I think such issues are better dealt with via character complaints then vaguebooking on the forum. Because then your not assuming your limited perspective is the correct perspective. Also when I said "get over having something stolen" I wasn't strictly speaking about you directly but the playerbase at large (or at least those who come to the GDB and complain about it or who react so badly as to avoid going to public venues because "oh noes! I might get my mount ticket stolen").

If you read past the first line you'll note the emphasis I placed on RP. Should I edit the first line?

No. If you think there's poor RP on something you have limited knowledge of, don't vaguebook on the GDB, put in a complaint to staff.

Vaguebook? I think it seems pretty pointed. I'm encouraging people directly to try and make scenes fun for all as much as they can. If you dislike this perspective, great, tell me yours!

[Cerelum]

The problem with stealing isn't really that you get stolen from, it's the absolutely no messaging that happens when you're stolen from that I think sucks.

So say you're stealing my fancy knife from my pack, you unlatch my backpack successfully, no message to me.  You steal the knife, no message, you are a pro so you relatch my backpack, slip knife belt, no message, sneak away, no message.

I think it's the plain invisibility of it that I find jarring.

I've always thought there should be some type of emote, like, "You felt someones hands in your pocket but couldn't catch them."

Now I know I have been stolen from, I can close off my packs, and shit or retreat to a safer area.

On a newbie character I had, I had literally over 500 coins stolen off me outta my pack on day one by some master thief, no message, reviewed logs, saw I put the coins back in my pack, closed my pack, then fast forward an hour and I go to get my coins and they are gone.  So barring some type of crazy bug, someone cleaned out my newb of all his coins.

So when it gets crazy or overpowered like that, I have a problem with it.  Sure, do people not know they are being pickpocketed in life, probably not.  But if you emptied my whole damn backpack of goods, I'd notice the weight difference or something.

As I said in that other thread, magickers don't really need karma checks, thieves do.

[John]

Vaguebook? I think it seems pretty pointed. I'm encouraging people directly to try and make scenes fun for all as much as they can. If you dislike this perspective, great, tell me yours!

That it's not my job to assume people have had "complete disregard for RP" or that "things recently are just beyond the pale and completely rip any sense of realism from the game", nor do I assume that "code is being abused". If I think any of those things are actually true, I'd report it to staff and let them investigate.

That's my perspective. And trying to shame SOME OF the current crop of players playing a particular role seems like a pretty shitty thing to do to be honest.

[Nile]

The problem with stealing isn't really that you get stolen from, it's the absolutely no messaging that happens when you're stolen from that I think sucks.

So say you're stealing my fancy knife from my pack, you unlatch my backpack successfully, no message to me.  You steal the knife, no message, you are a pro so you relatch my backpack, slip knife belt, no message, sneak away, no message.

I think it's the plain invisibility of it that I find jarring.

I've always thought there should be some type of emote, like, "You felt someones hands in your pocket but couldn't catch them."

Now I know I have been stolen from, I can close off my packs, and shit or retreat to a safer area.

On a newbie character I had, I had literally over 500 coins stolen off me outta my pack on day one by some master thief, no message, reviewed logs, saw I put the coins back in my pack, closed my pack, then fast forward an hour and I go to get my coins and they are gone.  So barring some type of crazy bug, someone cleaned out my newb of all his coins.

So when it gets crazy or overpowered like that, I have a problem with it.  Sure, do people not know they are being pickpocketed in life, probably not.  But if you emptied my whole damn backpack of goods, I'd notice the weight difference or something.

As I said in that other thread, magickers don't really need karma checks, thieves do.

Not sure how it could be implemented but something along those lines would solve any issues I have. Something subtle, perhaps depending on the location/weight/etc, that could be interpreted as a shift in weight or a light touch or nothing at all, depending on how the character wants to RP it.

And, John, I'm not trying to shame anyone. There's been some things IG that I've found just bizarre, yep, and perhaps should have been reported. I will certainly do so in the future and appreciate your advice, which I think is intended kindly. But I didn't report them at the time because I tend to give the benefit of the doubt as I've been there. Probably like 70% of my characters are some sort of sneak/thief. I've committed the exact deed I'm bitching about in years long past and if you or others feel shamed, even after I've explicitly noted folks might be doing exceptional RP with semotes and hemotes because it's impossible to know with how the code works, I apologise. It wasn't my intention to anger or shame anyone.

Clearly, this is an extremely touchy topic though, which makes me think this is a thread worth keeping open for a bit.

[oggotale]

If you're hidden and you emote something a character shouldn't realistically see you're encouraging metagame. Doesn't seem like good RP.

[titansfan]

I think the overlying point here is be a responsible player and don't steal 500 coins in one scene from a backpack.  Or steal couches or other furniture that's massive. Otherwise, those things aside, I think its balanced as is.

[Wurmskull]

The mount ticket thiefs just hanging out in the stables are the worst, but I don't think there's anyway to really fix steal fairlyother than just hope the PC makes the right call.

[Cabooze]

I've had people steal from my characters, while my characters were in combat. Actively moving around trying to kill something. If that isn't bad RP, I don't know what is. I think I've even had it done to me while climbing in a set of climb rooms.

To the thief that does this sort of thing: You know who you are. You know who you've done it to. Hopefully staff notice you doing it.

Staff need to be sent a log or something whenever a player uses the steal command on another conscious character. Or hell, even an unconscious one. If someone isn't RPing stripping me while I'm knocked out while spam-stealing, I'd like to see someone punished for failure to roleplay. If someone doesn't do at least a single hidden emote or silent emote of slipping through the crowds, hunting for a mark before then spam-stealing from someone? That too to an extent is failure to roleplay and should be punished.

[Synthesis]

I've had people steal from my characters, while my characters were in combat. Actively moving around trying to kill something. If that isn't bad RP, I don't know what is. I think I've even had it done to me while climbing in a set of climb rooms.

To the thief that does this sort of thing: You know who you are. You know who you've done it to. Hopefully staff notice you doing it.

Staff need to be sent a log or something whenever a player uses the steal command on another conscious character. Or hell, even an unconscious one. If someone isn't RPing stripping me while I'm knocked out while spam-stealing, I'd like to see someone punished for failure to roleplay. If someone doesn't do at least a single hidden emote or silent emote of slipping through the crowds, hunting for a mark before then spam-stealing from someone? That too to an extent is failure to roleplay and should be punished.

Why put a bunch of rules on stealing, but not for other PvP interactions?  Because you're being excessively butt-hurt about it.  The point is that there are NUMEROUS ways players are shitty, but this one gets brought up CONSTANTLY, because people just cannot let it go.  For some reason, being stolen from assaults the ego so intensely that all reason flies out the window.

[Cabooze]

Why put a bunch of rules on stealing, but not for other PvP interactions?  Because you're being excessively butt-hurt about it.  The point is that there are NUMEROUS ways players are shitty, but this one gets brought up CONSTANTLY, because people just cannot let it go.  For some reason, being stolen from assaults the ego so intensely that all reason flies out the window.

I'm advocating for roleplay and roleplay enforcement. It applies to if my character just got backstabbed or something, on the brink of death, and the other player has an opportunity to flesh out a death scene, for example. Most I've noticed, don't. Not even a small emote. They prefer to get the emotes done after you're already dead or something and they have all your loot. 

[Nile]

I've had people steal from my characters, while my characters were in combat. Actively moving around trying to kill something. If that isn't bad RP, I don't know what is. I think I've even had it done to me while climbing in a set of climb rooms.

To the thief that does this sort of thing: You know who you are. You know who you've done it to. Hopefully staff notice you doing it.

Staff need to be sent a log or something whenever a player uses the steal command on another conscious character. Or hell, even an unconscious one. If someone isn't RPing stripping me while I'm knocked out while spam-stealing, I'd like to see someone punished for failure to roleplay. If someone doesn't do at least a single hidden emote or silent emote of slipping through the crowds, hunting for a mark before then spam-stealing from someone? That too to an extent is failure to roleplay and should be punished.

Why put a bunch of rules on stealing, but not for other PvP interactions?  Because you're being excessively butt-hurt about it.  The point is that there are NUMEROUS ways players are shitty, but this one gets brought up CONSTANTLY, because people just cannot let it go.  For some reason, being stolen from assaults the ego so intensely that all reason flies out the window.

Seemed to me that Cabooze was emphasising the RP. Who actually gets 'butt hurt' about losing some gear on an online game anyone with a clue will be able to get back with ease? Unique items, sure that's different, but none of the cases mentioned so far have even pertained to anything of that nature. Besides, there are very easy ways to prevent thievery too, which can be just as dodgy. It would be very easy for everything of any value to suddenly become unstealable if characters wanted to.

I just don't like doing these things IG because I enjoy it when the game develops little plots, which the type of RP I'm referring to at least might try to create (I can think of sooooo many ways I could do this without getting arrested or seen unless by some crazy 0 lag bot and several other conditions met), and want to encourage this sort of mayhem. Crazy ninja theft doesn't really drive plotlines, RP or anything except one player's personal satisfaction, which I get, but trust me it's way more fun, and will actually get people riled up, if you create even the tiniest of scenes for the makings of a plot.

EDIT: I mean, one of the ironies here is that I'm complaining how this theft DOESN'T irritate me. It' just an OOC okay lets get another. What irritates me personally a lot more is being taunted IG. Otherwise who are you angry at? Nobody. You just shrug it off like a vNPC theft because it may as well have been and replace the item. No pain whatsoever.

[Cerelum]

Public service announcement, put things inside a container in your pack that's large, like coins inside a large wooden box or large bag with other things essentially only having one object in your pack, and close the internal container.

Provided you keep enough weight of items in the bag or container it will be unstealable from while in your main backpack.

You can't open things inside of things with unlatch.

Russian doll your inventory!

Also almost everyone carries large containers with them like large bags or an extra backpack.  Never keep anything you wanna keep in them because peek will show them while they are unopened.

Then it's a steal bonanza.

[Nile]

Public service announcement, put things inside a container in your pack that's large, like coins inside a large wooden box or large bag with other things essentially only having one object in your pack, and close the internal container.

Provided you keep enough weight of items in the bag or container it will be unstealable from while in your main backpack.

You can't open things inside of things with unlatch.

haha bingo.

[Synthesis]

...aaaaand that's why your mount ticket gets yoinked as soon as you > rent beetle.

[Cerelum]

...aaaaand that's why your mount ticket gets yoinked as soon as you > rent beetle.

help alias

Alias                                                               (Control)

   This command allows you to create mnemonics which will be expanded into
full commands when typed. Arguments following the mnemonic will be inserted
into the command, but replaceable parameters and substitutions are not
implemented. You can have a maximum of 100 aliases. Using the alias command
by itself will list your current aliases.

   To delete an alias, use the alias command with the name of the alias
you wish to delete, as in "alias spoo".

Syntax:
   alias <mnemonic> <text>
alias

Example:
   > alias ds draw sword   - Creates ds alias and assigns 'draw sword' to it
> alias ds              - Deletes the ds alias
> alias fb cast 'wek un suk-krath divan hekro'
> fb gith
(This will have the same effect as typing "cast 'wek un suk-krath divan

hekro' gith", except that from now on, you will just need to type "fb
<target>" instead of the whole spell.)

So simply create the following alias.

Alias ht hold ticket

ensure you're secondary hand is free before you rent your beetle and type Rent beetle and immediately type ht right after

They have about a second to sneak in their steal command before you're holding the ticket in your hand and it's unstealable.  If they time the delay on steal that well, then bless them they deserve the ticket.