Lower hp floor to -30

[Brokkr]

You seemed to be talking about shooting at someone unconscious.  There are ways to mitigate that, through look or watch.

If you need them unconscious and not dead, perhaps use methods that are meant to achieve that.  If you aren't able to, perhaps time to rethink or involve others.

Skills like archery are meant to be lethal and we devalue other skills if we make it both a lethal and non-lethal one.

[John]

You seemed to be talking about shooting at someone unconscious.  There are ways to mitigate that, through look or watch.

If you need them unconscious and not dead, perhaps use methods that are meant to achieve that.  If you aren't able to, perhaps time to rethink or involve others.

Skills like archery are meant to be lethal and we devalue other skills if we make it both a lethal and non-lethal one.

Sure. Those are all good points. "How would that even work" wasn't such a good point.

[Namino]

You seemed to be talking about shooting at someone unconscious.  There are ways to mitigate that, through look or watch.

If you need them unconscious and not dead, perhaps use methods that are meant to achieve that.  If you aren't able to, perhaps time to rethink or involve others.

Skills like archery are meant to be lethal and we devalue other skills if we make it both a lethal and non-lethal one.

Sure. Those are all good points. "How would that even work" wasn't such a good point.

This. I'm not even suggesting making archery less lethal. I have been hit by an arrow for 60 damage before. If I had 49hp, even with mercy, I'd be gone. That is going to be potentially lethal even with a check. Hell, if I'm at 10hp, 99% of arrows are going to drop me dead from standing through mercy. This change just lets archers decide if they want to shoot incapacitated targets or not.

This isn't about making archery less lethal.

This is about making archers less prone to stupid mistakes induced by the limits of texted based gameplay where you can't instantly appraise someone's condition.

[th3kaiser]

I think he's implying there are other less-lethal methods to incapacitate someone that he doesn't want to devalue.

[Riev]

You seemed to be talking about shooting at someone unconscious.  There are ways to mitigate that, through look or watch.

If you need them unconscious and not dead, perhaps use methods that are meant to achieve that.  If you aren't able to, perhaps time to rethink or involve others.

Skills like archery are meant to be lethal and we devalue other skills if we make it both a lethal and non-lethal one.

Sure. Those are all good points. "How would that even work" wasn't such a good point.

shocked.gif

[Namino]

I think he's implying there are other less-lethal methods to incapacitate someone that he doesn't want to devalue.

That's what I'm saying. This doesn't devaule those methods. If I have 20hp, it's pretty unlikely that a human str person in melee is going to do 30hp and drop me dead through mercy.

If I have 20hp, it's actually a pretty fair shot to take 30hp from an arrow and die regardless of mercy.

Archery is never going to be the go-to capture method for non-lethal options, even if we do have mercy apply to it. It just means players are more in control of their character's actions when it comes to not shooting unmoving, unconscious targets.

[Cerelum]

I think he's implying there are other less-lethal methods to incapacitate someone that he doesn't want to devalue.

That's what I'm saying. This doesn't devaule those methods. If I have 20hp, it's pretty unlikely that a human str person in melee is going to do 30hp and drop me dead through mercy.

If I have 20hp, it's actually a pretty fair shot to take 30hp from an arrow and die regardless of mercy.

Archery is never going to be the go-to capture method for non-lethal options, even if we do have mercy apply to it. It just means players are more in control of their character's actions when it comes to not shooting unmoving, unconscious targets.

Non lethal poisons are key here.  But that's a whole different problem I can't go into here.

[th3kaiser]

I dunno, I think we're just looking at archery differently. You should never shoot someone even once unless you mean to kill them, be it a bow or a firearm. And it sounds like you're entirely talking about shooting people who are already incapacitated. There's already ways to pay attention to that, you just have to make the effort.

pull quiver;shoot doofus east
l east

or Watch east;pull quiver;shoot doofus east

And yes, poisons. Sort of. Like the man said, whole different thing we can't go into.

[Brytta Léofa]

I am not sure how you pull back an arrow or spell, like you pull back you melee attack mid swing, but feel free to enlighten me.

https://youtu.be/wSgeEH-Zwbk?t=185

(In fairness, this isn't "don't kill the dude I'm shooting;" it's "don't also kill the dude behind him.")

[Namino]

I dunno, I think we're just looking at archery differently. You should never shoot someone even once unless you mean to kill them, be it a bow or a firearm. And it sounds like you're entirely talking about shooting people who are already incapacitated. There's already ways to pay attention to that, you just have to make the effort.

You should also never stab anyone you don't intend to kill yet we have mercy rules for melee. Again, you're correct in what I'm saying is don't shoot incapacitated targets.

There's ways to pay attention in melee to prevent fragging incapacitated targets, and they're quite a bit more obvious (and require zero player input like look), yet we still have mercy on top as an extra check just in case.

I know how poisons work. In fact, I'm deliberately considering the effect of peraine here. If you peraine someone with an arrow, you're about to fucking demolish them with 50hp hits spam rain every 2.5seconds from a distance. Very easy to kill a person, mercy or not.

The only thing I'm advocating here is having a toggle so your character can go "hmm, I guess I won't shoot the unconscious guy", which is the precise same process your character does in melee, when they go "hmm, I guess I won't stab the unconscious guy". The differentiation between range and melee in this regard is entirely code. There's nothing preventing someone from un-nocking an arrow.

[Vex]

I don't see the big deal...

Watch and look solve most of the raised issues, and if you're that worried about killing your target with arrows... consider not using arrows. There are alternatives, and I'm not waxing over poisons, here...

This is, imo, very much a "get good" situation. If you can't control your damage output with projectiles and spells, all of which require a shot-by-shot activation processes, within reason, you're probably not as good as you think you are. By the time I have to worry over killing someone by accident, I've a rough idea on my typical hitlocs and damage output. Not to say you don't get random high damage output, but... if you're that worried, soften with arrows and take down with something else. Every class with respectable archery, also has other tools that are best used in conjunction, or in place of, archery, for non-lethal take downs. Again, there are alternatives to bs/archery, which aren't poisons, that are as good, if not superior.

Each combat class gets an ENTIRE toolbox of skills, so I don't understand this fixation on archery/backstab/WEAPON SKILL... ESPECIALLY, when you want to not murder the person.

We don't need automated ranged mercy, and we SURE don't need auto mercy on upon log in, or anything like that. Just, you know... pay attention and think. People are too lazy.

[Namino]

I'm speaking from the perspective not of someone who accidentally killed someone they were trying to capture, as an aside.

I'm speaking as the person who died after a month long, multiple-engagement, fierce rivalry replete with shit-talk over the Way ended without any concluding roleplay at all. I am 85% confident based on the quality of the interactions leading up to the ultimate conflict that the arrow that ended everything was fired prior to the other player realizing my character was already unconscious. I certainly had mercy kill on and was planning for closure for the other guy had it gone the other way, but since I was using melee, it actually would have worked for me. I can't speak for their intentions but I'm sure they were disappointed as well that it didn't get to tie a bow on top for both of our sakes.

You can't unkill a person in this game. You can type 'mercy off' and fire a second arrow. They're asleep and going nowhere. Going 'git gud' is all well and fine but ultimately the ability to check ranged attacks is:

A) Consistent with the rules governing other forms of martial (ie, melee) combat
B) More likely to result in quality roleplay (coup de graces emoted out)
C) Selectable (toggle on or off)
D) Easily repaired (it's easy to mercy off and shoot a second arrow at an unconscious target. It's impossible to resurrect someone to roll through a sweet scene with them)

[Cerelum]

Watch is not always accurate.  I've thrown knives and shit while watching the direction and not seen the person or critter fall. Move in and they are sitting bleeding profusely.

So people who keep saying to use watch and look must not know that.

I've also shot people with arrows and looked in the direction to see them far away, moved in and found them dead.

Arrow code is wonky, or I've just got them to minus whatever and they bled out before I moved two rooms.

[Cabooze]

I going to double-down on my extra layer of mercy for melee combat idea:

as for the desires to make archery less lethal? Make blunted arrows with sand-bag tips... Still would hurt like a fucking bitch, but ICly you don't need to RP the fact that an arrow went into your neck. Staff could make the damage from that specific arrow balance out bow damage and deal significantly reduced damage....

But it also begs the question, why the fuck are you shooting a bow at someone you intent to keep alive? It's immensely easy to kill someone with a bow IRL even from simple stupid mistakes, so using a bow in a game to try and 'capture' someone is just movie-tier levels of stupid.

[Delirium]

Have you considered... using a sling.

As for the OP, I see where this comes from but I don't think a higher threshold is necessary.

I like the sudden accidental deaths.

I do think that soldier NPCs should have mercy on by default unless they were attacked first. Seems an easy toggle.

[Cerelum]

Also, why does it take getting to zero to knock you out? Maybe if 10 knocked you out, there would be less chance of outright murder when you're still fighting or fleeing at 2hps.

[John]

Also, why does it take getting to zero to knock you out? Maybe if 10 knocked you out, there would be less chance of outright murder when you're still fighting or fleeing at 2hps.

Because Armageddon (and Diku?) is based on AD&D 2e and in AD&D 2e 2 HP equalled fully upright and at full fighting capacity with 0 HP (under an optional rule) being unconscious while -10 HP was dead.

[X-D]

Watch and look do not even begin to touch the problem.

I have to assume most of the people who think so have never had a running PVP battle with ranged and melee. Having to type watch direction every time you move and knowing that your opponent is trying to outwit you is just silly, You do not do it. Not to mention it is very VERY easy to bypass watch and with 100% effect.

Other methods? Poisons lack any type of reliability in ranged near to being worthless.

And I really do not see the issue with having a coded "look east, Oh hey, the dude is down I will not shoot" As somebody else said that is all melee mercy is anyway.

As to the OP on lowering HP floor. I am very fine with that...BUT...once past -9 you will not recover without magick. And if you are at -12 and you don't want to play it out...there is always quit die.

[MeTekillot]

Let's meet in the middle and say -15.

[Jihelu]

I think -10 is actually pretty okay?

Usually I've only seen people die from full to no HP if they are severally outclassed, or sparingly. (like, some fraction so low I don't really bother caring that much)

[Namino]

Watch and look do not even begin to touch the problem.

I have to assume most of the people who think so have never had a running PVP battle with ranged and melee.

This is really the sense I'm getting. ESPECIALLY when kite archery in involved, the goddamn amount of movement and frenetic sprinting around shooting that's going on at breakneck pace -- it becomes stupid easy to fire one too many arrows and spoil a cool finale scene.

[Riev]

Watch and look do not even begin to touch the problem.

I have to assume most of the people who think so have never had a running PVP battle with ranged and melee.

This is really the sense I'm getting. ESPECIALLY when kite archery in involved, the goddamn amount of movement and frenetic sprinting around shooting that's going on at breakneck pace -- it becomes stupid easy to fire one too many arrows and spoil a cool finale scene.

I once played a MUD that had a "paintball"-like simulator that was basically Arm's archery code. The entire point of the game was to run in random directions while spamming "shoot <direction>" and hoping someone was there. It got bad enough to the point where people had scripts that would move a random direction, look in all directions, fire in a direction if there was a mobile, and then repeat until cancelled.

I'm just saying... its a bit wonky.

[AdamBlue]

As a regular ass sparring Byn with gigantic fucking balls I was the dedicated dude to spar with the Mul. Most of the time, I was quick enough to beat his ass.
When he did hit me, it would nearly fucking instagib me.