Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.

[Tekky]

Well. This devolved quickly.. To clarify yet again, perhaps. What I mean is that a negative interaction for a player's PC shouldn't, as a general rule of thumb, be a negative experience for that PC's player. If we can mitigate this as much as possible, why don't we?

Or do we play this game to punish people's "fun"? I sense a huge amount of spite and hate here. If you as a criminal do not trust your victims to behave accordingly, how can a victim trust a criminal? And it all sort of escalates into bullshittery from there.

But I somehow feel we de-railed this entire thread.

[Veselka]

Picking locks should have some crime code consequences, or be related to sleight of hand in some way.  It currently has none that I'm aware of.

[In Dreams]

What I mean is that a negative interaction for a player's PC shouldn't, as a general rule of thumb, be a negative experience for that PC's player. If we can mitigate this as much as possible, why don't we?

Or do we play this game to punish people's "fun"? I sense a huge amount of spite and hate here. If you as a criminal do not trust your victims to behave accordingly, how can a victim trust a criminal? And it all sort of escalates into bullshittery from there.

I liked everything written here, a lot. I can't speak for others, but I don't really play on Armageddon to compete, spite anyone, or get one over on other players. I've never tried to win Armageddon. I'm not accusing anyone else of it either. But it often feels like there's a small subset of players who're mostly here to rejoice in stuff that feel like very thinly-veiled "griefing," for lack of a better term. I don't even necessarily have a problem with that. Everyone enjoys different stuff. You do you! But, for most of that kind of behavior there's some kind of way to deal with or prevent it.

If somehow another powerful PC has managed to completely superduper-max-level his skills through intense daily mekillot hunting or whatever... he can still be stopped. They're a magicker? Still stoppable. They're a half-giant or mul? Still stoppable. They're a magical half-giant templar with a metal sword? It'll be harder, yes, but rest assured, they can still be dealt with. Even a code dummy like me could devise some way that they could most likely die from player actions. For all of Armageddon's many scattered principles and diverse ways to enjoy playing it, nothing and nobody is immortal except Tektolnes and Muk-Utep. And that's how we like it! Harsh! Gritty! We're all tough and rugged and enjoy suffering here, yarrrr! Scars! Sandstorms! The Byn! Allanak, fuck yeah!

The "problem" with stealth and thievery, in contrast, is that there is actually no way to deal with or prevent it, and that's not an exaggeration. A thief with the highest possible skills simply can't be detected moving through any city environment unless either they screw up royally, or they choose to be.

To illustrate this with a sense of realism, if this is a PC of the right class in an absolutely barren 5x5 room with full lighting, no shadows, low ceilings and no available cover whatsoever, they're still not just hard to detect, they're completely invisible. Even if you have the highest possible skills used to detect them at your disposal and they're standing right next to you examining the straps on your shoes, they're invisible. There's something wrong with that.

That doesn't mean that all thief PCs are horrible, that they don't have valid IC reasons to steal or torment other PCs for whatever IC reasons their players believe is right. That doesn't mean that Armageddon should become soft, allow resurrections, and cater to slow, klutzy, flowery-emoting low-machismo losers that just aren't tough enough to put on their shades and "deal with it", but the situation I laid out in the last paragraph? That's actually possible, and there's something wrong with that.

[Veselka]

Ultimately, code is the beginning and the end. If it is limited by code? It isn't possible. If it isn't limited by code? It is possible.

Further guidelines like documentation allow for nuance between those extremes. I would posit that things like "Player Complaints" allow for a PC to bring something to Staff's attention if they think there has been abuse of the code by a player, and ultimately, Staff is the arbiter of that decision. If there is follow up to that complaint, Staff rarely tells you about it. They say thank you for bringing it to their attention, and call it a day. If it goes further than that, or they require logs or your participation, they'll let you know, but I haven't found them to do that often in my own player complaints.

I file player complaints regularly. I don't really treat it as a complaint, and in fact, it might be better to semantically call it something different. I think people are discouraged from using it as a check because they think they're snitching or otherwise judging another Player. Calling it something like "ATTN: Staff" would be a more accurate use of the request, I think.

I've filed player complaints in the past against New Players. What?! What?! Such an asshole...No, not really. Because the nature of the complaint is completely encouraging. I may point out to Staff that this incredibly new player could really use some guidance if they have a second, that they're really enthusiastic but maybe don't get the setting of the game, mention metal swords, and how they're a 'Barbarian from the Cold North'. The Player Complaint in this instance isn't a complaint, as much as a 'Attn: Staff. This newbie seems cool, could you help them out?'

Similarly, a player complaint I might file about a burglarizing or something (Not that I have, or would really, about that kind of thing) might be "Could you look into this for me and see if it's kosher?" Because I, the Player, have nowhere near the resources or capability to make an objective decision about something like that. I have hearsay, I have what my PC has seen, and a complete grey void in-between that. I don't know the 'Absolute Truth' about the matter. Staff have the ability to check run-logs of specific rooms. They can provide the 'Context' that Vex mentions, by seeing things again my PC can't see (Thinks, Feels). They can decide, and should ultimately being the ones deciding, if everything is kosher. So Filing a Complaint is the only way you can seek and find closure for something like this.

For better or worse, if it is possible via code, then it is up to the Player/PC to decide if it is feasible or realistic. People will react differently to that nuance. Some will err on the side of caution, even if it is codedly possible. Others will live and die by the code, and I think that is fine too. If Staff really thought it was an endemic problem, they would (and have) fixed code surrounding these kinds of issues. A recent example would be latching/unlatching things in your equipment and getting crime code thrown at you. They clearly saw this was an issue, and fixed it. If there is a similar code issue here (rather than a discussion of player culture), I'm sure you can and should file a request about it.

[In Dreams]

I guess the culture problem is between that situational paragraph and the first one I wrote describing a particular playstyle. If a player has the absolute power to move invisibly through basically anywhere and decides to play in that particular "style", accelerator to the floor in the direction of "how can I trouble other players, mostly just for the sake of it," that's where problems come from. We can maybe expect most players to use nuance, but some just won't. If the code allows it, it will be done.

The only real solution is to probably adjust the code so that there are player-based solutions to what's otherwise near-invincibility in the form of high-skilled stealth.

[Veselka]

Which is where the 'Player Complaint/Attn: Staff' request comes in. If you think someone is abusing the stealth code, or code in general, bring it to Staff's attention, and let them decide. We can harbor all the grudges we like against what we consider to be 'Griefers' etc. But ultimately the only thing we can do is either let it go, bring it to Staff's attention, or have our PC's come up with a reason to murder them.

[In Dreams]

if this is a PC of the right class in an absolutely barren 5x5 room with full lighting, no shadows, low ceilings and no available cover whatsoever, they're still not just hard to detect, they're completely invisible. Even if you have the highest possible skills used to detect them at your disposal and they're standing right next to you examining the straps on your shoes, they're invisible.

I disagree with you based entirely on this.

This isn't the kind of thing that should need investigation or oversight. It just shouldn't be codedly possible.

Edited for clarity: people should be allowed to play how they want to play. Even people who primarily like to 'win' over others. People enjoy different things and there's nothing wrong with that. The actual problem is when there is no interactivity and no possible response to it.

[Eyeball]

Then there's the whole disparity of effort issue.

The merchant can labor for weeks to assemble a stock (no, it's not just to sell upon the next reboot, if you pay a grebber to get materials for you, you don't do it one log at a time) and make some things and finally acquire a few luxuries.

Then the thief just logs in for ten minutes and sacks any thing of any value (which represents the main bulk of the merchant's labor). And sneers that anyone who doesn't like it has "OOC issues".  And that the merchant should be grateful he or she didn't take the merchant's boots as well.

And now having discovered that someone has foolishly tried to build up some value, repeat visits are inevitable and cannot be prevented.

And it hardly matters if an occasional thief has to face justice. The merchant's weeks of effort are still gone, snorted up the thief's nose or whatever. Others thieves are still operating, and new ones will be along soon enough, maybe even run by the same player.

Why should anyone bother to try without a GMH fortress of solitude. It's a design flaw in the game, that's all there is to it. Or, even worse, it's an intentional flaw aimed at driving characters into clans.

EDIT: It might all still work if some kind of standard was established for leaving out coins. Not enough coins? Don't get pissed and sack everything, just come back all the sooner for the next set of coins. No coins? Maybe some other thief beat you to it. Try again a couple of times before you decide the merchant isn't playing ball. When the merchant dies and stops leaving coins, then sack the place.

Hopeless, though, there will always be those who don't respect such arrangements.

[Cerelum]

Picking locks should have some crime code consequences, or be related to sleight of hand in some way.  It currently has none that I'm aware of.

You get wanted if you pick locks in front of an NPC.  But I don't think VNPCs give two shits.

[Eyeball]

So anyway, we have this tension between merchants and criminals... which perhaps is just reflective of what is or should be going on in the city or just how the game world works in general?

There's no "tension", there are a bunch of merchants being robbed blind and quitting out of frustration, and there are a bunch of thieves with all the advantages laughing all the way to Nenyuk (and even crowing about how they made merchants quit).   

[MeTekillot]

This could probably be solved by letting people hire NPC guards.

[Tekky]

This could probably be solved by letting people hire NPC guards.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

This is still a thing. And possible.

[Nao]

I feel like some of you have the wrong idea about what it is like to play a burglar, and how difficult it is. Or what gets stolen. Raw materials rarely get stolen, because they are heavy and mostly worthless to criminals. Finished goods are.

It's not that easy to burglarize an apartment. Neither is it failsave.

If you're not playing a pilferer, you'll need to obtain a lockpick, and these are much harder to get than some logs (if you are playing a pilferer? Your hide is capped low enough to be easily spotted with maxed scan). Chances are, you will need to get it from another player, either by stealing (deal with crimecode to train that), or expose yourself as a criminal and hope for the best. You might be charged an arm and a leg for those, and you'll probably go through a bunch of them because they break early on, and you can only pick a few locks in the shittiest places early on.

There is no way to pull out and wield or hold a lockpick with sleight of hand. You will need to break hide for that, and become visible. There are a number of 'no-hide' rooms in bare spaces, where you will also become visible, and as a player you have no way to tell when this happens. You absolutely cannot sneak out with heavy furniture or a full suit of armor and stay hidden, because of the penalties you get to sneak when you're just a little encumbered.

If you leave doors open or clean out the wrong places, prepare to being hunted by the entire city, including the guild and other criminals.

Hire other players. Pay criminals for protection, or to check on your door and re-lock it if they find it open. Figure out where the better locks are, and rent these places. Get a buff roommate. Take small and valuable items (gems, mount tickets) with you and keep them on your person instead of in inventory. Leave some poisoned food and drink lying around. Yes, you might still get burglarized every once in a while. It can't be impossible because it shouldn't be. But there are plenty of things you can do to decrease the odds.

[Vex]

So anyway, we have this tension between merchants and criminals... which perhaps is just reflective of what is or should be going on in the city or just how the game world works in general?

There's no "tension", there are a bunch of merchants being robbed blind and quitting out of frustration, and there are a bunch of thieves with all the advantages laughing all the way to Nenyuk (and even crowing about how they made merchants quit).   

There's no "tension", there are a bunch of rogues being ID'd by a fleeting glance and meta-gamed out of existence, by merchants and socials enjoying a game culture skewed exclusively to their advantage. (and cry on the forums, the game is too hard on them).

[Derain]

Tekky player created clans are cool and all but the first year of your warehouse expect to get robbed blind and lose everything until you get a guard.

[MeTekillot]

I absolutely fail to see the problem with indie merchants roving around with gangs of thugs watching their backs duking it out with each other. Just make it so the guards refuse orders to attack people clanned in the noble clans. Also make it so the crimcode only triggers if there's a soldier NPC in sight but that's a different conversation.

[titansfan]

To be honest,  I've played a few different,  successful criminals and never heard these comments before on the boards.  These days, it hardly sounds like I would even want to play one. What the hell are you allowed as a criminal? Nobody knows motivations nor should they unless said criminal gets caught. This sounds like class favorite versus class favorite and not really constructive towards discussing game role-play. We as players are expected to role-play realistically and if we do not, there are checks and balances for that.

[Eyeball]

These days, it hardly sounds like I would even want to play one.

Why shouldn't you want to play one, with the new classes. With so many classes that can make things, the targets have multiplied. As a miscreant, you've the potential to be a fine fighter (and hunter, with the right subclasses). You're a burglar, a pickpocket, an assassin and a decent warrior all in one. You have all the time in the world to perfect your thieving skills as well a plausible cover from your "daylight" role. Then once you've reached the level of invincibility, well, there's little the indie merchant can do (except, as someone pointed out, to wait for two years and hope an NPC guard or two will deter most of it; even then, I wouldn't be surprised if miscreants can just kill the NPCs). Scoop the fruits of someone else's labor in ten minutes when it suits you then go on with your life. If some thieves are being caught, it's because they don't have enough patience to develop properly.

[titansfan]

I wasn't speaking towards the viability of the classes and what they can do codedly. I was speaking towards the incredibly negative reaction said classes seem to be getting. I like to make the game more fun and exciting for others and it seems like these criminal roles are lost on a lot of people.

[Riev]

Tacking on as a Guild-player of ... meh capability...

It is also frustrating for the GOOD burglars in the game, that set up deals, and protection, and "protection markers" or whatever you want to call them. I've had numerous instances where the Guild has set up protections for people paying an extra tax to make sure we stay away from their things.

Only for said apartments to be laid bare, and now we're on the hook for it, because the Guild is supposed to either employ, or KNOW who is around picking doors and such.

The reality is, every clan has picks. EVERY. CLAN. HAS. PICKS. Just ask and you'll find half a dozen lying in some shelf somewhere. And what happens is these clans bring up their own burglar-type characters unbeknownst to anyone outside their organization, and suddenly you have some Kadian Burglar wiping out apartments with little consequence because their home base is a Compound.

(Note to self: Kadian "property reclamation specialist" a new role. Justify carrying out dressers of people who can no longer afford the 'tax')

[Jihelu]

The only reason my merchant gemmed joined Oash was for the storage and space because I knew the likely hood of anyone breaking into the Servant's quarters to steal my 50+ diamonds was unlikely.

I feel like that isn't the healthiest game design.
Then again I did it so lmao idk

[gotdamnmiracle]

-snip-

This. Trying to play as a Guild-boss when some idiot decides to "clean out" every apartment because they spend a day twinking stealth skills up and have enough (AA) elf-strength to carry everything relatively valuable out has made my character want to retire. I honestly considered telling everyone we don't "do" protections because it's simply impossible to try and reign in dudes whose hours are diametrically different from your own and who don't have anything to fear. In reality I would send some goons to gut the guy, but he and I both know codedly I can't.

I hate playing crafter types, but not only is greifing like this screwing their enjoyment and emersion, but other criminals as well. If I had it my way the Guild would murder every independent burglar they could to send the message that that's their turf and NO ONE imposes upon it. Steal unaffiliated at your own risk. I recognize I'm too casual of a gamer to sit in someone's apartment perma-scanning to enforce that.

[Riev]

Lore-wise, the Guild probably can send some pipe-wielding nibbas out to take care of business.

And hell, the Guild itself probably knows exactly who was in there stealing shit, because one of their fences just got a bunch of random things sold off to them.

But as a PC, you're hamstrung. Guild wise. Merchant wise. You're at the whim of the code, which we all know means "I can break in here, open the door wide open, steal a few things, never relock the door, and who cares? No code will find me, and no PCs are monitoring this exact apartment!"

Worse yet, that when someone IS caught, and its some Fale Aide who was given a fancy lockpick because who knows why, and you have to risk political ramifications. I don't have a coded solution for this, other than somehow making a "hidden" PC unable to get past front gate guards, unless they're shadowing someone in.

[Cerelum]

Lore-wise, the Guild probably can send some pipe-wielding nibbas out to take care of business.

And hell, the Guild itself probably knows exactly who was in there stealing shit, because one of their fences just got a bunch of random things sold off to them.

But as a PC, you're hamstrung. Guild wise. Merchant wise. You're at the whim of the code, which we all know means "I can break in here, open the door wide open, steal a few things, never relock the door, and who cares? No code will find me, and no PCs are monitoring this exact apartment!"

Worse yet, that when someone IS caught, and its some Fale Aide who was given a fancy lockpick because who knows why, and you have to risk political ramifications. I don't have a coded solution for this, other than somehow making a "hidden" PC unable to get past front gate guards, unless they're shadowing someone in.

Yeah this is the problem with clan spaces, I can sneak into the noble quarter easily, but the merchant house is impenetrable.