Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.

[gotdamnmiracle]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Wow. I didn't even see this quote before. I don't think you should be allowed to play an elf anymore, let alone a PC with sneak/hide. You obviously aren't using it properly and are just greifing people with it. I hope you got player complaints for this or at least learned your lesson.

[Sokotra]

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

Yeah, it sounds like Vex either went a little overboard, is exaggerating, or had some really good IC reasoning behind his/her actions.  *shrug*  You can actually stuff a whole lot of silk items into a small bag in real life, but I agree that carrying a bunch of shells and other bulky items out the front door would be pretty silly.  Several small/medium sized weapons secured properly wouldn't be out of the realm of realism, though, imho.  I tend to play my thieves pretty "generous" for lack of a better term, even though I do "stupid" stuff to get caught sometimes, I still try to keep it as realistic as possible.

[Vex]

That sounds good, Vex, until they start just taking the tribute and continuing to loot everything anyway. There's no way to stop them from doing it.

Yes, this happens.

Nothing to be done, but to tough it out.

Tbh, those types tend to die VERY quickly, either to their own hubris, or to non-amateurs getting annoyed with them causing a ruckus, and making everyone on guard.

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

I mean clean out, as in clean out. You can apply whatever villainous, imaginary bad rp you want. You lack context, and I won't give it to you.

Here's another one, from a while ago, to throw some petrol on the fire.

In one instance, I broke in and looted to manageable on the best stuff, smashed up the furniture, and dumped feces into the bags and chests of the rest, so as to ruin ALL the stuff I COULDN'T take. And then, I left the door open, with an ldesc enhanced object outside, so EVERYONE coming into the hall, would see the door was open, and the interior was trashed.

In another instance, I shoved someone's furniture off their balcony, and left it ldesc'd as smashed to pieces on the road below.

Why did I do it? What was the cause? You don't know, and I won't tell you. I'll be your bad guy, happily! Let your imagination, run wild and free!

Wow. I didn't even see this quote before. I don't think you should be allowed to play an elf anymore, let alone a PC with sneak/hide. You obviously aren't using it properly and are just greifing people with it. I hope you got player complaints for this or at least learned your lesson.

I've never had a player complaint, nor a punishment. I'm rather thorough in my RP, and every time I ruin a life, I do it because they've done something to deserve it.

If you don't want bad people to come calling, maybe, don't call out bad people? If you aren't tough, dangerous and connected, don't act like you are.

So many people, could avoid so many hardships, if they built up to being a badass, or an influential person, instead of wanting to be one, before they're out of their chalton boots.

C'est la vie, GDB.

[Namino]

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NeildeGrasseTysonBadassMeme.png

[gotdamnmiracle]

You see, I think you're misunderstanding why I called your RP garbage. The "petrol to the fire" you described is perfectly fine. It sounds like you did a decent job of making a scene, but cleaning out is not that. When you carry out someone's set of cylani shelves like a moving company the justification would have to be a stretch no matter how IC you make it. Furthermore, an Allanaki city elf wouldn't chase someone across the Known to torture them and steal all their shit constantly. But a player with a vendetta would and would jump through whatever acrobatic hoops to get there. Just like a twink will jump through some ridiculous RP hoops to be able to skill-up on the three creature in the Known worth it. That way if they get called out they can shriek "but you don't know the context!".

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NeildeGrasseTysonBadassMeme.png

Lol

Edit: deleted a comment that sounded mean in retrospect.

[Vex]

But you don't know the context.

[Inks]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

[Dresan]

Just to be clear,

1. I find no issues with players getting robbed blind and being left naked. I've been on the receiving end of this, and who hasn't stolen from someone knocked out from climbing? Losing gear is not the end of the world, particularly in this game. I didn't fully like the argument against pking but I can kinda understand the frustration of some players in certain high risk roles. However, no sympathy for losing virtual loot at all. 

2. Additionally, you don't need hide,sneak, or steal in order to do this, sometimes a good maul does a better job of allowing someone to rob someone else blind or just good old betrayal. Therefore, getting stolen from wouldn't be an issue related to stealth classes as it would not stop people being robbed blind even if they did not exist. 

@eyeball: I don't disagree there are some issues with indies. However, the issues I've had with indie merchants and just indies in general aren't really code related or player related. In my opinion, being given a fortress of solitude and never losing stuff wouldn't solve any of my perceived problems.However, all this is a derail from the original thread. 

[MeTekillot]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

That's the point.

[Cerelum]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

[Inks]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

Was talking about NPC, ya.

[Veselka]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

Was talking about NPC, ya.

I agree wholeheartedly. The rooms with 6-10 Half Giant NPC Soldiers are a bit ridiculous. I know it's a lapse in the patrol code, but still...It's beyond a Goon Squad.

[Cerelum]

Swap HG with human militia please. Kthx

Get rid of Half-Giant NPC militia, keep the player ones if they get hired and make it to the proper rank.

Was talking about NPC, ya.

I agree wholeheartedly. The rooms with 6-10 Half Giant NPC Soldiers are a bit ridiculous. I know it's a lapse in the patrol code, but still...It's beyond a Goon Squad.

I almost want to ICLY ask a Templar about why there is rooms with SEVEN guards in them, but I don't feel like dying... So Hint hint templars, go spread around your soldiers.

[MeTekillot]

There should really only be like 3 half-giant soldier NPCs in Allanaki proper, you figure they'd keep the rest in the Noble's Quarter.

[In Dreams]

I always assumed the giants were a kind of representative for the general power and presence of the militia in general. It's the police state of an iron-fisted tyrant who has half the population enslaved. There are soldiers all over the place. They might not care a lot of the time, but if you mess with the law it's meant to respond not just with force, but with overwhelming force.

It's probably easier to represent that with a couple giants than with 10 soldiers running in and spamming the room with yelling and attacks.

That's just my interpretation, anyway.

[Eyeball]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

That's the point.

And I pointed out some of the many reasonable anti-theft measures that are being denied to characters just to keep them vulnerable to thieves.

I mean, I get that Bartle Killer and "Murder Corruption Betrayal" types want this to be like a FPS with a veneer of RP on top, where they quickly kill/screw or get killed/screwed, and to them merchants (non-GMH) are just carebears to be sneered at/prey upon. Others actually would like to build something.

EDIT: Six out of the fifteen classes are predominantly merchants now. Maybe a notice should be affixed to each of these that if they're not intending to join a GMH, they're best combined with the Nilazi subguild. Or the player should be actively seeking an exercise in frustration.

[Tekky]

I don't care what the context is, but Vex - that sort of mindset borders on easily becoming griefing. Your effort, the provided result and the amount of "fun" it creates does not equal the investment in time/effort the other party made into it. While I am not saying we should play it fair, but ruining a whole PCs accumulated efforts in one fell swoop is akin to PKing some. It makes players OOCly despondent, unwilling and as you said they dig their heels.

It promotes an unhealthy OOC culture.

A succesfull merchant is suppose to bribe the templars, the soldiers, their gatherers and then also every burglar active in their setting? And manage to have an OOC life? RIP.

[Hauwke]

The problem isn't the number of bribes. It's the amount players expect as a bribe. A large as a bribe so you don't rob my apartment this month? Dude that is literally more money than most commoners will see in their life time and you expect it as a little side action?

[gotdamnmiracle]

The problem isn't the number of bribes. It's the amount players expect as a bribe. A large as a bribe so you don't rob my apartment this month? Dude that is literally more money than most commoners will see in their life time and you expect it as a little side action?

Then there's the part where it's never properly communicated that you expect a bribe. I understand that bribery should be an obvious response to anything in Arm, but robbing every scrap of furniture, raw hide, and chunk of rock from someone's apartment doesn't communicate "bribe me". In fact, I'd argue that it doesn't communicate anything at all. For all the player knows he lost everything in a weird bug or crash because there was zero scene set for them to react to.

Incidentally when this happened to my PC I contacted the AOD at the time and bribed them to specifically hunt down anyone wearing the full set of heavy armor that was stolen and not only was that PC captured, but summarily executed. I am willing to bet you the bribe to the soldiers was a lot less than the one he would've expected for my shit back too. Incidentally, the AOd probably would've never found him if he didn't steal an ENTIRE SET of armor, excusing how loud and obvious that would be to lug out of an apartment.

[Sokotra]

The problem isn't the number of bribes. It's the amount players expect as a bribe. A large as a bribe so you don't rob my apartment this month? Dude that is literally more money than most commoners will see in their life time and you expect it as a little side action?

Then there's the part where it's never properly communicated that you expect a bribe. I understand that bribery should be an obvious response to anything in Arm, but robbing every scrap of furniture, raw hide, and chunk of rock from someone's apartment doesn't communicate "bribe me". In fact, I'd argue that it doesn't communicate anything at all. For all the player knows he lost everything in a weird bug or crash because there was zero scene set for them to react to.

Incidentally when this happened to my PC I contacted the AOD at the time and bribed them to specifically hunt down anyone wearing the full set of heavy armor that was stolen and not only was that PC captured, but summarily executed. I am willing to bet you the bribe to the soldiers was a lot less than the one he would've expected for my shit back too. Incidentally, the AOd probably would've never found him if he didn't steal an ENTIRE SET of armor, excusing how loud and obvious that would be to lug out of an apartment.

I guess he could have worn the armor out of the building as a disguise or whatever, who knows.  Well, sounds you were able to do something about it and he payed for it with his life instead of just returning the armor plus a fine, etc.  Sounds a little ridiculous from both sides, but I don't know what else occurred.  Same stuff (death sentence) can happen over items that aren't very costly and are replaceable, so the thief might claim it to be "unfair" as well, if they wanted.

Also, from what I have seen there is usually tons of raw materials and junk laying around that doesn't get stolen aside from a couple of more valuable items.  So it really doesn't seem to me that people are regularly getting cleaned out.  I guess on occasion maybe someone is doing that sort of thing for whatever reason, IC or not, I don't know.

So anyway, we have this tension between merchants and criminals... which perhaps is just reflective of what is or should be going on in the city or just how the game world works in general?  Aren't there IC ways of working this out so a merchant character can eventually progress to a more secure location to operate out of?  (or bribe the militia to find the thief, as was done above, although think about realism from both sides... as in, would they risk causing more trouble over a replaceable item or two and would the militia really put that much time into finding said thief)  And a thief, well, might get better but they are still risking their life whenever they steal something.  I'm not really sure where the unfairness comes in except maybe where people are acting like theft should never happen and the thief might get hunted down and killed over a bit of chitin and bone.

[Vex]

I don't care what the context is, but Vex - that sort of mindset borders on easily becoming griefing. Your effort, the provided result and the amount of "fun" it creates does not equal the investment in time/effort the other party made into it. While I am not saying we should play it fair, but ruining a whole PCs accumulated efforts in one fell swoop is akin to PKing some. It makes players OOCly despondent, unwilling and as you said they dig their heels.

It promotes an unhealthy OOC culture.

A succesfull merchant is suppose to bribe the templars, the soldiers, their gatherers and then also every burglar active in their setting? And manage to have an OOC life? RIP.

Yes, unhealthy ooc culture. This is, ultimately, where I'm going with this.

When someone is robbed, be it in their apartment, their person by STEAL command, or some other thing, the typical response in game, is EXACTLY the response I got here, in this thread. It's hyperbole. It's assumption. It's glass half-empty. It's illogical, knee-jerk, judgement in spite of basic reasoning.

It's someone hamming it up in the extreme, about how EVERYTHING was stolen, HOW did they fit the WARDROBE and BED through the DOOR! The picture painted is never, I was robbed, they stole all my underwear and jewelry. It's "I was robbed, the thief is a cheater!", wrapped in the most thinly veiled in-character wrapper. If anyone with sense, and the willingness to to use it, goes back and reads what was written... how likely does it sound, that would ever scrape past staff scrutiny?

There's no context, there's no rhyme or reason, it's a string of blatant antagonism, that people are quite eager to embrace. This is because the ooc culture, as you say, is such that a thief or petty criminal, is more loathed by players, than any other archetype in the game. We actively, aggressively, ic and oocly, paint rogues to be "twinks", or "BAD RP!", without typically ever really knowing what happened.

Really, as an often lurker type pc, what usually happens is someone breaks into an apartment, steals a duffel of goods, and leaves. Later, a neighbor is walking through the building, notices a door open, and drags that nice nightstand or dresser across the hall, into their own apartment.

Enter the victim, who goes to the tavern, full of the ooc rage most players have for rogues, and starts hamming it up, about "thieves" stealing "everything". Technically, true, but the way it's presented to other pcs, and the players, is that the CLASS: THIEF PC is a BAD RP'ER!

We're rather eager to assume the worst, and leap to whatever flimsy excuse we can get, to judge. This is ESPECIALLY true, when it comes to thieves.

Really, look how easy it was to pull people in? The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

The implication is always, the rogue is cheating. Stealth is broken. A rogue skillset can only be conceived as a greifing tool.

In almost every situation, you know nothing of the motivations and the happenstance. You stumble upon the end result, as he victim or passerby, and the assumption is made.

We even had one, using "context", like it's laughable.

If you don't know for certain, and you cannot possibly if you aren't staff, you lack the context and perspective to judge.

You don't know, but it never stops people from painting the most deplorable picture, given any opportunity.

Rogues, are always cheaters. It's too easy to play a rogue. My stuff got stolen, I wasn't there, I don't know the context, or even when it happened, or how many separate parties were involved, or what any of their motivations are. I better get to the Gaj, and lose my gotdamnmind, because it must be bad rp!

While I am not saying we should play it fair, but ruining a whole PCs accumulated efforts in one fell swoop is akin to PKing some. It makes players OOCly despondent, unwilling and as you said they dig their heels.

Your argument makes no sense, here. You're pandering to a popular opinion, that finds its roots in nothing. If it is the same as pk, do you suggest pk creates am unhealthy culture?

At what point, is it "ok" to pursue someone for injuries rendered? If the pc does not feel it, if the player does not appreciate the consequences, is there any point to it? Thieves, should not take more than the player is willing to have their pc lose? The thief will become immediately hunted, upon discovery. Globally. What if the thief, becomes despondent, at being more hunted than sorcerers? Is that fine, thems the breaks? Explain it to me.

Tell me about your ideal ooc culture, and how we can have a game, where nobody has to feel bad, or lose. I'm wholly interested in hearing about it. The mental gymnastics involved, must be really, bloody spectacular.

It promotes an unhealthy OOC culture.

There is nothing healthy, about any aspect of Armageddons "culture".

[Tekky]

Okay, what I meant was simply do your actions IC contribute to the overall fun both IC and OOC? Clearly you painted a scenario in the post I commented on that you were going out of your way to punish people because of their OOC unwillingness to get robbed.

There are player complaints you can send as a burglar too.

What my experience is with burglarly, is that I have never noticed it untill my character's whole apartment suddenly gets cleaned out. Perhaps a script could be added where someone goes and locks the doors every IC day or two? As to prevent neighbour robbery, if that now is the culprit?

The problem seems to be that we have a "culture" where staff and players always agreed that if you take from a player you should provide something in return, as a general rule. You don't get that feeling with a burglar or a pickpocket. Both your character and you as a player invested time to aquire something and then it is gone. Which just adds another timesink to the game.

I am not saying we should remove burglarly and I think pickpocketing is fine (except lol stealing bastard swords), but this is the sort of area that Armageddon can take a big long hard look at and ask themselves some questions. What if you have to take a couple weeks break and can't log in. You are bound to lose all your shit, even if you can manage to log in to pay rent. It just seems like such an incomplete system designed to punish anyone who wants to own a couch, let alone a chest of chalton hides. And especially if you're a new player and have no idea how to appease twenty invisible elf burglars.

[Nameless Face]

The problem seems to be that we have a "culture" where staff and players always agreed that if you take from a player you should provide something in return, as a general rule.

This does not sound anything like the Armageddon advertised on the website.

[Vex]

The problem seems to be that we have a "culture" where staff and players always agreed that if you take from a player you should provide something in return, as a general rule.

What game, are you even playing? Are you Bobops alt account, or something?

[Alesan]

I've found this thread so far interesting to read, but can we not devolve into attacking each other personally, please?