Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.

[Brokkr]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

[Namino]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

One thing I notice you tend to do, Brokkr, is conflate IC information with code information. The code is, as you allude, an imperfect mechanism to produce a bounded system of responses to inputs. But acting like deciphering code and finding things out IC are the same process is disingenuous. Suggesting the crim-code is an IC phenomenon is no more true than suggesting the statement 'that carru just hit me for 25 health points!' is an IC statement.

Much like health points are a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous ICly (that being the overall health of your character), the crim-code is a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous (that being the complex social reaction of the civilization you're in to socially unacceptable behavior).

You can get away with conflating 'find out IC' with coded nuance some of the time. That is wholly dependent on how well your code is encapsulating intuitive and accurate reflections of how things should work. But in scenarios where the coded approximation is very inaccurate and is poorly intuitive, then this IC-code conflation falls apart, because the mechanics that are driving the system are not any more in-character than the numerical value of health points.

The crim-code does a poor job of translating the complex social behavior of law enforcement. This is not one of those times where you can get away with conflation. Some things need OOC explanations, especially if they can result in instant loss of of a character due to code-quirks.

[Dresan]

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.

If you bar doors, the thieves should have tools to cut it, if you set traps, thieves should be able to disarm them....for every counter measure you have, the thief should get a counter measure to balance it out. More expensive apartments already have better guards, locks and such, someone needed to invest in the skill set to open those doors. The skills and stats needed to steal from the safe that is a backpack  have tradeoffs.

As someone who has enjoyed the role of indie merchant and who loves indie roles in general, I can assure you if there is a problem with indie roles, its not because our chalton hides get stolen.

[Eyeball]

If you bar doors, the thieves should have tools to cut it,

Hard to see how a thief could remain stealthy while sawing through a thick wooden bar.

if you set traps, thieves should be able to disarm them....

Which should take a lot of time in some cases and with a chance of failure.

More expensive apartments already have better guards, locks and such,

You mean the ones that tell you that you can't rent there (unless you have some special status which they don't specify)?

for every counter measure you have, the thief should get a counter measure to balance it out.

So you want to maintain the status quo. *shrugs* It's not like I really hope anything will change anyhow. As it stands, trying to maintain an inventory in a warehouse is a joke. Any indie merchant will best operate out of a closed, weighted backpack and stick to crowded areas.

[Cabooze]

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.

If you bar doors, the thieves should have tools to cut it, if you set traps, thieves should be able to disarm them....for every counter measure you have, the thief should get a counter measure to balance it out. More expensive apartments already have better guards, locks and such, someone needed to invest in the skill set to open those doors. The skills and stats needed to steal from the safe that is a backpack  have tradeoffs.

As someone who has enjoyed the role of indie merchant and who loves indie roles in general, I can assure you if there is a problem with indie roles, its not because our chalton hides get stolen.

The concept of 'barring' a door would only be applicable if you have a plank/length of mek bone, are the apartment owner, and that you MUST be in the room in order to bar it, IE barring before logging out, barring before mudsex, barring before murder. You might even accidentally bar your door with the thief already inside!

I think barring the door could make for more fun than it would ruin.

As for the topic on hand, well.......... I kinda need to agree with Namino on a lot of points there, but I also agree with Brokkr's stance of keeping the spread of OOC/IC information down. There just needs to be a less vague system in place to explain to people just what might get them killed off in seconds.

It doesn't come off as common sense that putting something into someone's pocket is just as illegal as taking something from that person's pocket, and thus gets a possibly long-lived character killed.

[Brokkr]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

One thing I notice you tend to do, Brokkr, is conflate IC information with code information. The code is, as you allude, an imperfect mechanism to produce a bounded system of responses to inputs. But acting like deciphering code and finding things out IC are the same process is disingenuous. Suggesting the crim-code is an IC phenomenon is no more true than suggesting the statement 'that carru just hit me for 25 health points!' is an IC statement.

Much like health points are a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous ICly (that being the overall health of your character), the crim-code is a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous (that being the complex social reaction of the civilization you're in to socially unacceptable behavior).

You can get away with conflating 'find out IC' with coded nuance some of the time. That is wholly dependent on how well your code is encapsulating intuitive and accurate reflections of how things should work. But in scenarios where the coded approximation is very inaccurate and is poorly intuitive, then this IC-code conflation falls apart, because the mechanics that are driving the system are not any more in-character than the numerical value of health points.

The crim-code does a poor job of translating the complex social behavior of law enforcement. This is not one of those times where you can get away with conflation. Some things need OOC explanations, especially if they can result in instant loss of of a character due to code-quirks.

You act how you act.  The code responds with an automated world response.  You may disagree with the response, but that doesn't mean that, unless it is a bug, that it is invalid.  It just means you disagree with how it was implemented.

Like your hand is seen near in someone's pocket.  IC'ly, does your intent on whether you were putting something in that pocket or getting something out of it really matter?  Your hand was in someone else's pocket.

[Namino]

We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

The code is a series of parameters, meant to somewhat approximate an IC response.  A "how to" is basically going to be a delineation of what the code is.  Rather than playing a couple of characters, doing what is IC, and IC'ly learning what works and what doesn't. Maybe at the end of that you don't know every single quirk of the code, but hopefully you have an idea of what can work, and the potential to still be surprised at some point?

One thing I notice you tend to do, Brokkr, is conflate IC information with code information. The code is, as you allude, an imperfect mechanism to produce a bounded system of responses to inputs. But acting like deciphering code and finding things out IC are the same process is disingenuous. Suggesting the crim-code is an IC phenomenon is no more true than suggesting the statement 'that carru just hit me for 25 health points!' is an IC statement.

Much like health points are a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous ICly (that being the overall health of your character), the crim-code is a coded approximation that represents something more nebulous (that being the complex social reaction of the civilization you're in to socially unacceptable behavior).

You can get away with conflating 'find out IC' with coded nuance some of the time. That is wholly dependent on how well your code is encapsulating intuitive and accurate reflections of how things should work. But in scenarios where the coded approximation is very inaccurate and is poorly intuitive, then this IC-code conflation falls apart, because the mechanics that are driving the system are not any more in-character than the numerical value of health points.

The crim-code does a poor job of translating the complex social behavior of law enforcement. This is not one of those times where you can get away with conflation. Some things need OOC explanations, especially if they can result in instant loss of of a character due to code-quirks.

You act how you act.  The code responds with an automated world response.  You may disagree with the response, but that doesn't mean that, unless it is a bug, that it is invalid.  It just means you disagree with how it was implemented.

Like your hand is seen near in someone's pocket.  IC'ly, does your intent on whether you were putting something in that pocket or getting something out of it really matter?  Your hand was in someone else's pocket.

And there was a time not too long ago that unlatching your own damn pocket got you freaking swarmed by guards, IIRC.

In an ideal world, the code would be sophisticated enough that it performs adequately and has contingencies for things like that. For example, my character failing to pick up a rat to toss it by the tail out of a tavern leading to every Kuraci guard in a five mile radius leaping to my defense. That code is working as intended, because the code is imprecise and doesn't have coded contingencies to account for all possible IC scenarios. That is the limit of using code to translate the infinite array of IC scenarios. The fact that crim code is so imprecise is what requires a 'how to'. If the code was designed with enough contingencies that it never triggered in situations that didn't make sense then I would agree that finding out IC is appropriate.

But that isn't the case so that argument holds no water.

Edit: To elaborate, no one is (or at least I'm not) arguing for a code overall that changes the behavior of the criminal code. Rather, it's about having the reasonable ability to predict the outcomes/consequences of your behavior. There's two ways to achieve this. One is by having your code be very very very precise such that the outcomes are very reasonable -- rats don't get butchered for attempted homicide when someone fails to grapple them, ect. The other is by being transparent with how your imprecise code works, so people can understand the consequences.

Another example of this is when a low level clan Kurac entertainer was refusing to follow orders from a high ranking Garrison individual a while back, before the Luir's overhaul. I couldn't understand why the Garrison person wouldn't arrest that individual, only to find out much later that because the guards were all clanned Kurac still, the Garrison officer attempting to arrest the Kuraci would have led to the "Garrison" NPCs killing their officer, which is not an IC response and should not be 'found out IC'. Luckily my officer was savvy enough at the time to not attempt the arrest. That's the sort of insider, OOC knowledge of code-quirks that a guide should contain. NPCs have clans and even law enforcement NPCs will assist criminals if the criminal is in their clan.

[Jihelu]

Obviously the captain should have attempted the arrest and have gotten killed to learn the code /sarcasm

[Namino]

Oh, oh! I forgot the one time where I was standing in a clan-hall with the PC blooded member of a GMH who had commissioned me to kill one of his employees, and the PC GMH member, sitting right beside us, was like, "do it now." And then all of the house guards decided that their boss didn't know what was best and tried to gang up on me to save the person that their house was ordering assassinated, while instantly reporting me to the outside authorities.

You can't maintain your contact...
You're now wanted!
You wound <redacted> on her body with a brutal stab.

129/129h 124/134m 110/120st| light | walking | before dawn Terrin

The greying, one-eyed half-elf joins <redacted> fight!
The greying, one-eyed half-elf pierces at you, but you dodge out of the way.
You lead the greying, one-eyed half-elf's attempt to disarm you and reverse it.
You knock a slender wooden flight arrow from the greying, one-eyed half-elf's hands and send  it
flying west, bouncing off the closed door.

129/129h 122/134m 113/120st| light | walking | before dawn Terrin

The greying, one-eyed half-elf hits at you, but you dodge out of the way.
The greying, one-eyed half-elf draws a black-hilted bone longknife.

The above was not IC. Unless you're suggesting we then should have killed that half-elf NPC for insubordination. These occurences happen because the code isn't precise enough to account for complex IC scenarios like the above. We're not expecting there to be hard coded answers for everything, but not every coded quirk is a 'find out IC' moment. None of the above was IC. It was just code shenanigans. The fact that this sort of thing is OOC and not IC is evidenced by the fact that moments later a staffer set me unwanted because it was clearly not appropriate given the situation.

[In Dreams]

REDACTED.

[Cerelum]

I'm against absolutely anything that would make burglary or thievery easier, including code clarity.

It's already wildly easy, with virtually zero ways to realistically respond to it.

I think you have some knowledge of the code that we don't.  Because I've been on damn near deserted streets with no soldiers or templars within near, far or very far distance in the middle of the night and become wanted.

[Dresan]

@eyeball

Sorry don't really agree that indie merchants suffer because their chalton hides get stolen. Or that taxes are a problem, not when you can still  have 20K+ just sitting on their bank account without anything to spend it on.

Ultimately, your coins are all safe at the bank. As for everything else, regardless whether you are indie or not, if you lose it...meh. Rp getting it all back if its so valuable and important to your character's well being.  This is starting to sound as if some people believe there should be more ways to protect you in-game stuff?

Again have played indi merchants, this was never the problem.

[rinthrat]

I'm against absolutely anything that would make burglary or thievery easier, including code clarity.

It's already wildly easy, with virtually zero ways to realistically respond to it.

I think you have some knowledge of the code that we don't.  Because I've been on damn near deserted streets with no soldiers or templars within near, far or very far distance in the middle of the night and become wanted.

Did you check if that room had a hidden up exit? Sometimes, soldiers follow a wanted char that climbs up a building partially up the wall, then remain there until the next reboot.

[Eyeball]

@eyeball

Sorry don't really agree that indie merchants suffer because their chalton hides get stolen. Or that taxes are a problem, not when you can still  have 20K+ just sitting on their bank account without anything to spend it on.

Yes. Chalton hides are it. Those are what indie merchants make their killings on.  Those are what the thieves target.

Ultimately, your coins are all safe at the bank. As for everything else, regardless whether you are indie or not, if you lose it...meh. Rp getting it all back if its so valuable and important to your character's well being.  This is starting to sound as if some people believe there should be more ways to protect you in-game stuff?

Again have played indi merchants, this was never the problem.

You might as well keep your coins in the bank, because if you spend it on anything that's actually worth something (even furniture), it will be gone soon enough. And if you try to maintain a stock (you know, something businesses tend to do?) so you don't have to greb up the materials and make the item(s) on the spot when ordered, anything of any value (e.g. wood in Allanak) will be gone soon enough too.

Until a templar checks your balance and decides he or she deserves that money, but that's another issue.

Who wants to 'craft x into y' a thousand times over a long period just to enrich templars and thieves.

[Cind]

Should we split off the thread to talk more about the realities of pc crime after the guild changes? It seems like this is a real problem based on what some of you are saying.

[Sokotra]

I'm not sure everyone here has actually played a thief from the ground up before.  It's not as easy as you think, given the danger involved.  Stealing a piece of bread could mean your death.  Sure, there are some easy ways to make some coins but you can also very easily get caught and killed even at a higher skill level.  Not to mention having the whole city after you if you get noticed a couple times.  So sure, I guess it can be easy sometimes - if it is worth risking your life.  The reward versus risk has to be kept in consideration.  As far as warehouses and the like, in the past I have very rarely been able to break into any warehouses, let alone find anything of value.  So maybe I just haven't played enough to master everything and know exactly where to go and what tools to use, but if you are missing your chalton hides then maybe you have some thieves in your own clan, which is great.    Keep in mind that a thief might be wanting to use her talents to eventually accrue the same sort of wealth that your merchant has.  Or maybe just enough to do whatever it is they are wanting to do.  Also, there's a difference between occasionally missing an item or two and being completely robbed naked every month or whatever.  I think people might be freaking out a little too much and causing, perhaps unrealistic, danger to their own lives over missing a replaceable item occasionally in a world or city full of thieves and liars.

[Eyeball]

Also, there's a difference between occasionally missing an item or two

Not sure why there isn't a "laugh your guts out emoticon", else I'd put one here. Respect if you played thieves who would employ moderation, but that's definitely not all thieves.

[titansfan]

I've always left tribute and that seems to work really well.  Its like paying a bodyguard to keep your body safe. Especially if you're wealthy enough to have things worth a lot.

[Sokotra]

Also, there's a difference between occasionally missing an item or two

Not sure why there isn't a "laugh your guts out emoticon", else I'd put one here. Respect if you played thieves who would employ moderation, but that's definitely not all thieves.

I hear you.  Yeah, if it's not an inside job (or someone next door?) then I guess maybe someone could be loading up with an unrealistic amount of large items... Or you were in a bad neighborhood (most of Zalanthas) or you became a prime target for some reason, like rivalry/competition, larger clans trying to maintain their monopoly, etc.  I suppose there's plenty of IC possibilities aside from someone being unrealistic (or desperate?).

[Vex]

I've always left tribute and that seems to work really well.  Its like paying a bodyguard to keep your body safe. Especially if you're wealthy enough to have things worth a lot.

This, here, was my favorite part of thieving, especially as an elf. It was great fun to clean out merchants, until they broke down and quit, or figured out they needed to leave me a cut of their profits. In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors, but only a couple ever bothered to just leave a pouch with, a few hundred coins in it. The one's who did, were not only safe from my cleaning out their ridiculous, huge, massive "stock" (which is code, for "So I can max out the npc merchants on reset", fyi) of silk dresses, expensive weapons and armors, and tools (taking merchants tools is super effective!), but I also (violently) kept other thieves away whenever I could.

Most, though, get really angry, probably really angry oocly, dig in their heels, and try to make a grudge match out of it, and lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

I really, really want to play another elf... humans, are just too boring.

[In Dreams]

That sounds good, Vex, until they start just taking the tribute and continuing to loot everything anyway. There's no way to stop them from doing it.

Yes, this happens.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

[Cerelum]

I hope our meaning of the phrase "clean out" is different because wow does that imply bad RP if an elf is "sneaking out" of an apartment loaded down with packs full of silk dresses and shell curasses. If someone robs your house they aren't realistically packing up your entire wardrobe, entire gun safe, and all your electronics. They take yor VCR, your jewelry box, OR a rifle or two.

I had a merchant once who bought furniture and all sorts of shit because I was making a metric ton of money.

Apartment robbed and ten hours later, all furniture gone, all goods gone.

[Eyeball]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

[Cerelum]

In almost every case, the merchant would go to the ends of Zalanthans to refuse to let me get their loots, from moving apartments every RL day, to hiring soldier pcs to patrol their building, to even going AFK in their apartment with eat/drink triggers the whole day, dressed like warriors

Most, though, lose every time. In some cases, they became so obnoxious about it, I killed them, because if they're wasting my time and aren't going to be making me money, it was time for them to die, so the ones who WERE making me money, had less competition.

Which just highlights how lopsided the game is when merchants can be griefed out of existence so easily.

This is a whole different conversation and thread.