Shadows - Blurs ETC

[Cerelum]

Say you see the shadow or blur of a hidden thing.

Is there a way to out it without attacking it?

[mansa]

Use the watch command.

Unless you're talking about making it visible to everybody else?  Then no... Not really.

[Cerelum]

Use the watch command.

Unless you're talking about making it visible to everybody else?  Then no... Not really.

Yeah that's what I meant, I see it, but BUFF super scary doesn't.  How do I show it to him so Buff Super scary can attack it or subdue it?

[th3kaiser]

You somehow trick them into revealing themselves. Or y'know, attack them.

[Cerelum]

You somehow trick them into revealing themselves. Or y'know, attack them.

Shouldn't you just be able to go...

Code Select Expand

point shadow
The average amos points at the shadowy fucking rinther, revealing him to everyone nearby.

I mean realistically if I catch someone hiding behind the sofa and want people to know he's behind the sofa, I could do that easily.

[Riev]

You might be able to see the shimmer, but others can't.
What if there was a lag-delayed command like "uncover"

uncover blur
You begin moving in %blur direction with intent.

Pre-lag before the uncover, give the invisible person time to move out of the way.
Maybe a Scan-branch. YOU can see the shadow out of place, but others can't, until you learn how to show them.

[th3kaiser]

I mean, I rather prefer anything that doesn't make stealth or any other antagonist-type skills weaker. But, I'm also the player who hates that my fellow players can play in law clans.

                   srsly, stop killing my PCs with the wave of death when I haven't broken the law.

[Veselka]

Or threaten it.

[Cind]

My first encounter with the threaten command taught me well to respect it.

[mansa]

Strangely enough, I was reading this article yesterday:
https://olddungeonmaster.com/2014/12/28/dd-5e-stealth-and-hiding/

Maybe we could take advantage of some non-combat code?   Could someone that detects the hidden person "toss" an item at them?

[Cind]

You could try throwing a throwing dagger at them from another room, but I've never done this and seen if it works.

[Nameless Face]

I can't seem to use "throw" against blurs or strange shadows from adjacent rooms.

[Cerelum]

I can't seem to use "throw" against blurs or strange shadows from adjacent rooms.

I think I've done it once or twice, but the problem is the same as how scan works with look.  One look in the room you see it, then the next you don't.

I've been forced to see a shadow, type look shadow five times before I see it's a rat hiding.

I'm assuming this will be fixed eventually.

[flurry]

Another MUD I used to play had a reveal command, which meant that if you could see a hidden someone (or something), you could make them unhidden.  I'm not sure at all what a sensible version of that would look like for this game.

[Riev]

I'm imagining a max-scan ranger pointing at a full on shadow of Alfred Hitchcock on the walls, trying to reveal to the beefy warrior in the room that someone is watching them.

With very Jim Carrey-esque mannerisms and frustration.

Only for the grizzled warrior to say "It doesn't look like anything to me"

[Sokotra]

The problem with something like "reveal" is that a hidden person is likely trying to actively remain hidden or unnoticed.  City hide is a combination of blending in to a crowd and using shadows, obstacles, etc.  That rogue isn't just squatting under a table in the bar waiting for someone to come and say hi.  They are actively trying to remain unnoticed - they are going to move if they think they might be spotted, or simply continue to blend in with the crowd further.  Now, in a small empty room, sure... the situation may dictate that they should roleplay accordingly if someone spots them.  I think the way the code works, as it is now, is effective in portraying things as realistically as possible without creating further imbalance.

[Cerelum]

The problem with the current code is that short of attacking the shadow or blur, there is no way to make them come out of hiding.

So say that they snuck into a closed compound that's guarded by clan guards and won't come out to subdue and lead out, my only option is to attack them and hope that the clan npcs or myself don't kill them in the process.

There needs to be a non-magickal way to out hiders.

[Sokotra]

The problem with the current code is that short of attacking the shadow or blur, there is no way to make them come out of hiding.

So say that they snuck into a closed compound that’s guarded by clan guards and won’t come out to subdue and lead out, my only option is to attack them and hope that the clan npcs or myself don’t kill them in the process.

There needs to be a non-magickal way to put hiders.

Warn them?  Then, if they don't come out I guess they are risking death if you have to try and subdue them.  Anything else would just seem like a way to try to "beat" them on your terms.

Edit to add:  Last I checked you can subdue a shadow, unless their hide skill temporarily beat your scan skill at the moment you tried to subdue them.  (Hence shadows blinking on/off)  Hope that makes sense, I'm on a phone today.

[titansfan]

Ive had master scan and not been able to target shadows with throw.

[Sokotra]

Ive had master scan and not been able to target shadows with throw.

As far as throw goes, I think I would agree, because I think I've had that same issue while hunting certain critters.  Aside from throw, however, sometimes the targeting issue is just because the shadow is not always noticeable because it blinks in and out due to skill rolls, etc... which to me just realistically portrays the target trying to actively remain out of sight versus your ability to notice them.

[Brokkr]

The problem with the current code is that short of attacking the shadow or blur, there is no way to make them come out of hiding.

So say that they snuck into a closed compound that's guarded by clan guards and won't come out to subdue and lead out, my only option is to attack them and hope that the clan npcs or myself don't kill them in the process.

There needs to be a non-magickal way to out hiders.

If this is your use case, why aren't you using the "subdue" command?

[lostinspace]

My last character had low wisdom and master scan. Hitting something hidden from range succeeded maybe 1 in 50 times.

More recent character with wisdom as best stat and master scan fails maybe 1 in 50 times.

Cunning and awareness are the enemy of sneaks. Master scan and master hide being equal (idk if they are), then what you have is really an agility vs. wisdom roll. Most people who play sneaks or creatures that sneak prefer agility.

Also it seems like there's more than 1 scan check to throw at hiding targets, it's like having disadvantage in D&D. Roll 2 dice and take the lowest. This drastically reduces your chances of success, especially if you're already at disadvantage.

[Cerelum]

The problem with the current code is that short of attacking the shadow or blur, there is no way to make them come out of hiding.

So say that they snuck into a closed compound that's guarded by clan guards and won't come out to subdue and lead out, my only option is to attack them and hope that the clan npcs or myself don't kill them in the process.

There needs to be a non-magickal way to out hiders.

If this is your use case, why aren't you using the "subdue" command?

Subdue in clan grounds caused me to become wanted.

Same as steal does.  Unless you guys have updated that crime code.

Same issue presents.  Ultimately I could hope that me watching the shadow and talking to it causes the person to be realistic and come out.  But if I'm not the AOD, I'm sorta screwed no matter what, or I have to hide for a few ig days till my wanted status vanishes.

Plus I don't think I've EVER been able to subdue anyone except as a half-giant warrior.

[Riev]

The problem with the current code is that short of attacking the shadow or blur, there is no way to make them come out of hiding.

So say that they snuck into a closed compound that's guarded by clan guards and won't come out to subdue and lead out, my only option is to attack them and hope that the clan npcs or myself don't kill them in the process.

There needs to be a non-magickal way to out hiders.

If this is your use case, why aren't you using the "subdue" command?

As Cerelum has said a couple times:

Because this works in an apartment setting. But in a public setting, it will not work (intended), and in a Clan Compound setting, sometimes the CrimCode is a bit wonky. If you're a Recruit Hunter, and someone slipped into the Salarr gates and is hiding/pretending to be someone they aren't and you try to subdue them, YOU might end up being punished/killed as a result.

Also friendly reminder: If you're sneaking in a Salarr compound because codedly you're shadowing a Salarri... you should probably try to have at least some sort of insignia (cloak, patch, etc). If I see a rinthi in a black cloak skulking around my Clan Compound, you can be for sure-damned certain I'm calling them out.

[Sokotra]

The problem with the current code is that short of attacking the shadow or blur, there is no way to make them come out of hiding.

So say that they snuck into a closed compound that's guarded by clan guards and won't come out to subdue and lead out, my only option is to attack them and hope that the clan npcs or myself don't kill them in the process.

There needs to be a non-magickal way to out hiders.

If this is your use case, why aren't you using the "subdue" command?

Subdue in clan grounds caused me to become wanted.

Same as steal does.  Unless you guys have updated that crime code.

Same issue presents.  Ultimately I could hope that me watching the shadow and talking to it causes the person to be realistic and come out.  But if I'm not the AOD, I'm sorta screwed no matter what, or I have to hide for a few ig days till my wanted status vanishes.

Plus I don't think I've EVER been able to subdue anyone except as a half-giant warrior.

Unfortunately in that situation I guess you just aren't ranked high enough to make that judgement call.  I suppose you have to accept that or wish up and ask for help.  I've been on both ends and have lost clan characters to fellow compound guards because of code limitations, unrealistically, and not received a resurrection - so I guess that's how it goes unless something has changed.  That's not the hide code that is the issue there, though.

[Inks]

Have played games with a point command that outs hiders. They weren't permadeath games. No thanks. Yuck.
You can threaten though. Threaten is cool.

[Cerelum]

Have played games with a point command that outs hiders. They weren't permadeath games. No thanks. Yuck.
You can threaten though. Threaten is cool.

IMO, threaten should out someone in hiding.  But it currently doesn't so unless they try and sneak out, it's worthless.