Stalker and Archery.

[Jihelu]

Wasn't there some staff update saying they had the code that could branch things at more than just, a few points under a skill max?

Meaning you could theoretically branch a skill at something other than high advanced?

[Veselka]

Yeah and I think that is the case with some other skills I've noticed branching in Jman. I think it depends what your cap is and where they have it 'go on' to branch.

Just not sure where that is for Enforcers with their weapon skills, but I don't particularly care either.

[Brokkr]

Yes, theorycrafting.  Not necessarily a bad thing.  But your goals in putting forth your arguments seem to be that you want to change the distribution of how powerful combat-wise characters get.  How much so, I am not sure. Thus the perception of things as broken.  What if the goal is to maintain the current distribution of skill levels, roughly?

Also theorycrafting because, hey, I ran multiple characters when we were play testing the new classes and afterwards to make sure things weren't completely borked on the ground.  Like a miscreant.  And stalker.  And scout.  And Pilferer. 

And for heavy combat characters, a fighter to test the new skills.  And because I was worried, because of Nergal's changes, whether what I was doing with the heavy classes would make it so someone couldn't even reach caps. And the results of that? I got to insanely high off/def levels.  I maxed two weapon skills getting to insane high off/def levels.  I maxed another weapon skill after I already had the insane high level of off/def. And then I promptly stored the character having tested what I wanted, because it was boring AF. Normally I wouldn't talk about it, but it seems folks have this idea that it isn't possible.  It is definately possible, it just isn't likely.

[Brokkr]

It is just slightly easier for Enforcers to get backstab and sap than it was for warriors to branch an advanced weapon skill.

[Inks]

I would like to see the logs of how you got misses at that level, Brokkr.

RE: TOPIC,  Stalker is already a STRONK class, and archery isnt that hard to gain in.

[Namino]

I would like to see the logs of how you got misses at that level, Brokkr.

Laying on the ground fighting turaals like the rest of us, probably. Edit: Or ep attacking another staffer who is etwo, mounted, and defended. That's actually broken. Or blindfighting. There's a static miss chance in total darkness so no matter how good you are, you'll get some misses even fighting a noob. The one thing all these techniques have in common is that they require you to sacrifice all pretense of staying IC. People who are campaigning for a change in this system are the CHAMPIONS of IC behavior, because most of us know how to get around this problem, we just find it distasteful that RP has to die in order to accomplish it.

The argument isn't that it's impossible, it's that it:
A) Forces people to unrealistic extremes like laying on the ground fighting turaal or ep attack/etwo defend sparring for 10-15 minute spars while the rest of your clan yawns in the background
B) Isn't fun

And then when you point these out and attempt to start a conversation about how this unfullfilling and unpleasant aspect of Armageddon might be alleviated, you get called a filthy twink and berated for caring about it in the first place.

I made you graphs, Brokkr. GRAPHS.

[Veselka]

It is just slightly easier for Enforcers to get backstab and sap than it was for warriors to branch an advanced weapon skill.

Personally, that's all I need to know. Is it easy? No. Is it possible? Yes. And I don't think it's game breaking to not have backstab/sap on an Enforcer, by any means. It's cool, but you can just as easily murder someone from hide with 'kill dude' and most times I would actually prefer to do that than leave it to chance with sap/backstab.

[Delirium]

Look, I don't think staff would go out to deliberately use stupid code tricks if they were trying to playtest the viability of a class.

I sympathize with wanting to get stronk because I love coded skills as much as anyone, but that's just paranoid.

[Dar]

I would like to see the logs of how you got misses at that level, Brokkr.

Laying on the ground fighting turaals like the rest of us, probably. Edit: Or ep attacking another staffer who is etwo, mounted, and defended. That's actually broken. Or blindfighting. There's a static miss chance in total darkness so no matter how good you are, you'll get some misses even fighting a noob. The one thing all these techniques have in common is that they require you to sacrifice all pretense of staying IC. People who are campaigning for a change in this system are the CHAMPIONS of IC behavior, because most of us know how to get around this problem, we just find it distasteful that RP has to die in order to accomplish it.

The argument isn't that it's impossible, it's that it:
A) Forces people to unrealistic extremes like laying on the ground fighting turaal or ep attack/etwo defend sparring for 10-15 minute spars while the rest of your clan yawns in the background
B) Isn't fun

And then when you point these out and attempt to start a conversation about how this unfullfilling and unpleasant aspect of Armageddon might be alleviated, you get called a filthy twink and berated for caring about it in the first place.

I made you graphs, Brokkr. GRAPHS.

Did you seriously just answer a question posed to someone else for someone else and then used your own answer to base your own response to your own answer?

[Namino]

I would like to see the logs of how you got misses at that level, Brokkr.

Laying on the ground fighting turaals like the rest of us, probably. Edit: Or ep attacking another staffer who is etwo, mounted, and defended. That's actually broken. Or blindfighting. There's a static miss chance in total darkness so no matter how good you are, you'll get some misses even fighting a noob. The one thing all these techniques have in common is that they require you to sacrifice all pretense of staying IC. People who are campaigning for a change in this system are the CHAMPIONS of IC behavior, because most of us know how to get around this problem, we just find it distasteful that RP has to die in order to accomplish it.

The argument isn't that it's impossible, it's that it:
A) Forces people to unrealistic extremes like laying on the ground fighting turaal or ep attack/etwo defend sparring for 10-15 minute spars while the rest of your clan yawns in the background
B) Isn't fun

And then when you point these out and attempt to start a conversation about how this unfullfilling and unpleasant aspect of Armageddon might be alleviated, you get called a filthy twink and berated for caring about it in the first place.

I made you graphs, Brokkr. GRAPHS.

Did you seriously just answer a question posed to someone else for someone else and then used your own answer to base your own response to your own answer?

Gosh, you're right. Guess I'll just sit here patiently and wait for the log dump of the playtesting that is definitely, absolutely going to be posted in response to Inks' request, because transparency of this sort is the mantra by which this game has flourished.

The point never was that we felt this was impossible. Most of the people in this thread KNOW how to get combat skills to master. Brokkr's assertion that 'he managed to do it therefore it's not a bad system' is laughable. Because I've done it multiple times myself and stand by the assertion that the system is cancerous.

[Armaddict]

Hide skill levels.  Problem solved.

[Brokkr]

No turaals were harmed.

However.  It was not easy.  The character almost died multiple times, even when they were extremely skilled.

[Brokkr]

The point never was that we felt this was impossible. Most of the people in this thread KNOW how to get combat skills to master. Brokkr's assertion that 'he managed to do it therefore it's not a bad system' is laughable. Because I've done it multiple times myself and stand by the assertion that the system is cancerous.

And therein lies one of the key problems with discussing this topic.

You haven't.

Nearly no one* has.  By design.

*Meaning players here, not characters

[MeTekillot]

Meditate with methelinoc in the mountains then go duel a pack of kiyet lions if you want master combat skills.

[X-D]

Brokkr, I doubt he means he has maxed on the new chars.

If I was to state I have maxed a weapon skill more then once it would be true....and even then one had to resort to stupid things.

But I have not on the new classes of course....but from what you have said, one needs to do even dumber things now. Which is the actual argument. One needs to do things that are not truly IC or stupid which amounts to the same thing. Likely to get staff on your ass if noticed. Of course you could do these things being high ranking staff, I doubt anybody would ask you if it was IC for your playtesting PC to be doing what they were doing. Or to doc karma for it. Which I know has happened simply because somebody was going unarmed verses stilt. Also, if it required that you take your PC against 4 mantis at a time, nobody is going to load 20 more mantis on you because it would be realistic in that spot according to them.

I don't have a horse in this race myself, I don't really care, if I decide my PC needs to have a maxed weapon skill, I will do what needs to be done and when...and I mean WHEN staff complains about it I will simply point back at threads like this where high ranking staff says it is not broken, we made it this way on purpose.

[Inks]

Brokkr, I doubt he means he has maxed on the new chars.

If I was to state I have maxed a weapon skill more then once it would be true....and even then one had to resort to stupid things.

But I have not on the new classes of course....but from what you have said, one needs to do even dumber things now. Which is the actual argument. One needs to do things that are not truly IC or stupid which amounts to the same thing. Likely to get staff on your ass if noticed. Of course you could do these things being high ranking staff, I doubt anybody would ask you if it was IC for your playtesting PC to be doing what they were doing. Or to doc karma for it. Which I know has happened simply because somebody was going unarmed verses stilt. Also, if it required that you take your PC against 4 mantis at a time, nobody is going to load 20 more mantis on you because it would be realistic in that spot according to them.

I don't have a horse in this race myself, I don't really care, if I decide my PC needs to have a maxed weapon skill, I will do what needs to be done and when...and I mean WHEN staff complains about it I will simply point back at threads like this where high ranking staff says it is not broken, we made it this way on purpose.

Yeah, basically I am fine with things the way they are, however, I would like to know that players won't get dunked on for the same zany stuff that Brokkr would have had to do to master 3 weapon skills.

Also..skilling weapons up the way you have to isn't fun or realistic. And when I see PCs telling PCs to go do twinky stuff IG MUH IMMERSHUNS.

[Brokkr]

Therein lies the rub I think, X-D, on deciding to go out and master a weapon skill.  How to design a system where a player can't be OOC like "I want -this- character to get max weapon skill!" and then be able to go out and do it.  But at the same time making it possible that some character of theirs might be able to attain max weapon skill.

IC'ly crazy maybe, but I find the assumption that I had to do either the same OOC wonky methods or something zany amusing.

[Inks]

I appreciate that you acknowledge that. Cheers. (Anything icly crazy over and over again is ooc unless your PC is insane in order to get skillgain ic)

[X-D]

Actually Brokkr, I really have no idea, I understand the problem, I have no idea currently how to fix it...like I said, I don't have a horse in this race because of it. I agree that a PC who has managed to max a weapon skill should be special and rare. But I do not have an issue with somebody thinking I want -this- Pc to max a weapon skill and being able to do it. No worse then saying I want THIS pc to join the byn or I want This pc to live 2 IC years and 50 days played.

(BTW, ICly crazy is equal to ooc wonky or zany methods in my book)

The only other way I see to "fix" the problem is make getting skill gains mildly easy but make the gains themselves stupidly tiny, so that it takes MANY days of play to get maxed, but that just means a truly boring grind...I am not advocating such a method.

[Brokkr]

We'll have to disagree.  Perception of risk can vary widely character to character.  What is crazy for a human to do can be much less crazy for a HG or mul for instance.

[X-D]

If you try and say that you maxed 3 skills on a HG without doing REALLY stupid shit I am going to call bullshit.

And even moreso on a Mul...just because it is easier to justify ICly with a HG or a mul does not stop it from being stupid zany off the wall methods.

In fact it is even worse.

straight up meta.

Also not available to many players.

[Namino]

I believe XD means crazy as in unrealistic (dragging turaals into pitch black caves), not crazy as in actually dangerous to your character's life. The most dangerous animals on Zalanthas are shit dodgers so paradoxically provide little value for skill gain.

Unless Brokkr's arguing it's okay for a Mul to deliberately get blinded by acid and then spar for a few hours whilst blind because muls aren't held to the same standards of believability because of their race.

Anyway, there's a few easy ways to solve this issue if we've reached the point of the conversation where we've admitted it exists.

[X-D]

I mean both Namino. I have played enough dwarves just for the "justify with focus" Or HG "justify because stupid" It does not make it right, it is meta gaming. Oh, I need to fight 4 tarantulas at a time so I can get the outnumber negs...Hey, my PC is stupid/focused/enraged so it is all good.

[MeTekillot]

Have you guys never watched a martial arts movie where they went traveling the world to master their kung-fu against perilous foes simply for the sake of it?

[X-D]

Are you trying to say Kung-fu movies are realistic?

I suppose you think prof wrestling is real?