Immersion breaking things, and how to handle them

[Hauwke]

I guess we're not gonna agree then! I got a band of bandits I can PM, DM call or text and have any answer within seconds.

I have this wierd, strange nagging feeling. It keeps telling me that you can do these things because you have been playing the game for many, many years. Where as someone who has just started does not have any OOC friends to fall back on, do they?

[ShaLeah]

I guess we're not gonna agree then! I got a band of bandits I can PM, DM call or text and have any answer within seconds.

I have this wierd, strange nagging feeling. It keeps telling me that you can do these things because you have been playing the game for many, many years. Where as someone who has just started does not have any OOC friends to fall back on, do they?

I was being facetious.  The entourage was mentioned in:

With the bonafide helpers, the help channel on Discord and the WISH command there is no reason to break character to ask for syntax.    I'm not gonna crucify anyone who helps.

[Veselka]

Yeah, to me there's less of a problem with OOC being used as actually intended...Asking for RPT times, quick coordination there, genuine code confusion and asking for help, because in the latter case, people typically give a bit of advice, then say 'Check out the discord (link) or helpers (link) if you have more questions,' and that's the end of that.

More of the immersion breaking (and when I might file a player complaint even) is when people habitually use OOC to crack jokes, react OOCly, quote song lyrics, and otherwise generally use OOC as if we had an OOC channel. We don't, and there's a reason for it, ArmageddonMUD is one of the only RPI's that has no OOC channel to even opt into. So breaking the immersion in this way is actually going against the spirit of the game and is even stated in the help file:

Think before you use ooc. It is not intended for conveying IC information, nor for discussions of the game mechanics, nor for extended roleplaying debates, nor for getting around language barriers.

It can have a detrimental effect on those around you, jarring them from the atmosphere they've built up.

And:

Try to use the ooc command as little as possible, preferably never. Imagine what a movie would be like if the actors and actresses kept breaking out of their roles all the time--the movie would be awful. Never ever use the ooc command to convey IC information. This is looked upon very poorly by staff members.

And truly, it sometimes makes it seem like an awful movie when OOC is used, because it is a bit infectious. Once one person in the Byn Sparring Hall habitually reacts/uses OOC to joke around, other people begin to do the same, and it spirals out of control.

PSA: Don't use OOC unless you have to, and if you have to, you're usually a newbie or a leader trying to coordinate RPT times. Thanks.

[Alesan]

If the usage of OOC is really such an issue, remove it. We have tools to convert game time to real time, those can be made available to players, and we have a helper system, Discord, and forums for people who need help to chime in at. That solves all of the issues people have.

As it is now, people feel like they're judged for a single use of OOC to help people because it's such a taboo command. If I see a new player floundering with some kind of issue, I end up ignoring it because I'd rather not be looked down on for the usage of OOC.

[Lizzie]

If the usage of OOC is really such an issue, remove it. We have tools to convert game time to real time, those can be made available to players, and we have a helper system, Discord, and forums for people who need help to chime in at. That solves all of the issues people have.

As it is now, people feel like they're judged for a single use of OOC to help people because it's such a taboo command. If I see a new player floundering with some kind of issue, I end up ignoring it because I'd rather not be looked down on for the usage of OOC.

Those tools are great - IF a new player knows to look for them. That's what the OOC command is for. To convey things like syntax, a link to the Discord channel and helper system, etc. The "issue" with the OOC command is that people use it for things it wasn't intended for. The issue isn't with the command. It's with the people using/abusing it. How does a new player know that Discord even exists, if they've never used it before? I know when I first started playing, I didn't even know about the GDB because in games I've played before, it wasn't called a GDB. It was called something else. And, in the most recent game I played before Arm, most of the forum-based discussion occurred in an OOC area of the game itself, and not on a website.

People come to Arm from all kinds of sources, some of which don't make use of the things we use, or are named what we name them. If we were to tell someone who came from base DIKU or CircleMud that they needed to wish up to talk to a storyteller, they wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about.

Without an OOC command, how would a new player be able to TELL anyone that they need OOC help? They'd have to use say/tell/talk which are not intended for OOC use. That would be even more jarring than using the OOC command.

So again - the perceived problem with OOC isn't the command. It's the use of the command by players who stretch its function into something never intended.

[Alesan]

If the usage of OOC is really such an issue, remove it. We have tools to convert game time to real time, those can be made available to players, and we have a helper system, Discord, and forums for people who need help to chime in at. That solves all of the issues people have.

As it is now, people feel like they're judged for a single use of OOC to help people because it's such a taboo command. If I see a new player floundering with some kind of issue, I end up ignoring it because I'd rather not be looked down on for the usage of OOC.

Those tools are great - IF a new player knows to look for them. That's what the OOC command is for. To convey things like syntax, a link to the Discord channel and helper system, etc. The "issue" with the OOC command is that people use it for things it wasn't intended for. The issue isn't with the command. It's with the people using/abusing it. How does a new player know that Discord even exists, if they've never used it before? I know when I first started playing, I didn't even know about the GDB because in games I've played before, it wasn't called a GDB. It was called something else. And, in the most recent game I played before Arm, most of the forum-based discussion occurred in an OOC area of the game itself, and not on a website.

People come to Arm from all kinds of sources, some of which don't make use of the things we use, or are named what we name them. If we were to tell someone who came from base DIKU or CircleMud that they needed to wish up to talk to a storyteller, they wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about.

Without an OOC command, how would a new player be able to TELL anyone that they need OOC help? They'd have to use say/tell/talk which are not intended for OOC use. That would be even more jarring than using the OOC command.

So again - the perceived problem with OOC isn't the command. It's the use of the command by players who stretch its function into something never intended.

I don't personally want the command to go, I'm just sad that this is an argument. Use it when it needs using, and move on. I wonder how many new players have been left unhelped because nobody wanted to use the OOC command.

[Lizzie]

If the usage of OOC is really such an issue, remove it. We have tools to convert game time to real time, those can be made available to players, and we have a helper system, Discord, and forums for people who need help to chime in at. That solves all of the issues people have.

As it is now, people feel like they're judged for a single use of OOC to help people because it's such a taboo command. If I see a new player floundering with some kind of issue, I end up ignoring it because I'd rather not be looked down on for the usage of OOC.

Those tools are great - IF a new player knows to look for them. That's what the OOC command is for. To convey things like syntax, a link to the Discord channel and helper system, etc. The "issue" with the OOC command is that people use it for things it wasn't intended for. The issue isn't with the command. It's with the people using/abusing it. How does a new player know that Discord even exists, if they've never used it before? I know when I first started playing, I didn't even know about the GDB because in games I've played before, it wasn't called a GDB. It was called something else. And, in the most recent game I played before Arm, most of the forum-based discussion occurred in an OOC area of the game itself, and not on a website.

People come to Arm from all kinds of sources, some of which don't make use of the things we use, or are named what we name them. If we were to tell someone who came from base DIKU or CircleMud that they needed to wish up to talk to a storyteller, they wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about.

Without an OOC command, how would a new player be able to TELL anyone that they need OOC help? They'd have to use say/tell/talk which are not intended for OOC use. That would be even more jarring than using the OOC command.

So again - the perceived problem with OOC isn't the command. It's the use of the command by players who stretch its function into something never intended.

I don't personally want the command to go, I'm just sad that this is an argument. Use it when it needs using, and move on. I wonder how many new players have been left unhelped because nobody wanted to use the OOC command.

I usually don't mind using it when it's clear the situation calls for it (or when the person asks, in which case - the situation calls for it). The only time I hesitate is when it's a very obvious, very jarring, very unusual and very profound "breach of roleplay" that sort of hints that if you go OOC to explain that they need to stop doing something, it'll turn into an OOC "discussion." In those cases I wish up and hope someone on staff might intervene with a [send] directly to the player in question.

[Bebop]

Excessive OOC bothers me. A random OOC here or there about "making dinner, back in 20" doesn't even begin to bother me. If you tell me the ingredients, yeah, then you've gone too fare.

I see what you did there...

I think we can all agree that limiting OOC conversation is ideal, and to try and respect immersion whenever possible.

When a single post sums up the issue with brevity but people still gonna tear the issue to pieces and find a reason to bicker even though we're all pretty much basically in agreement. 

[Fathi]

During one of Arm's long downtimes years ago, I played a game that had no OOC command or anything like it. There was a "playtimes" type command where you could ping someone and tell them your online hours. That's been floated here as a solution before, but it suuuucked.

A tiny minority using OOC egregiously is a small price to play for the ability to clarify stuff between players when necessary.

I spent so much time on that game being LOST AS HECK. Having no way to just ask people "yo what command do I use to obey the order you just gave me" was a dealbreaker. It's easy to say "they should consult the helpfiles" but helpfiles are predicated on the idea that you know what keywords to use to look something up. If you don't even know the name of the command (their 'subdue' was called 'restrain' lol) helpfiles can be tough to locate.

Sometimes you just need a way to clarify stuff, especially if you're new.

So yeah, consider this just a really longwinded emptyquote of this:

Excessive OOC bothers me. A random OOC here or there about "making dinner, back in 20" doesn't even begin to bother me. If you tell me the ingredients, yeah, then you've gone too fare.

I see what you did there...

I think we can all agree that limiting OOC conversation is ideal, and to try and respect immersion whenever possible.

[Aruven]

I don't personally want the command to go, I'm just sad that this is an argument.