The Case for Posting Craft Recipes on Clan Forums

[boog]

Are you in favor of this? Why or why not?

I am personally in favor of this because throughout the years, throughout shifts in clan staff and clan sponsored roles, so many particulars of one recipe or another, so many odd items that no one knows need to be in stock, that there seems to be a trend toward ... well, forgetting, when it comes to the different craftable items in game.

Understandably, fashions change, inventories are improved, but at the same time, personal spreadsheets are lost, and some crafting recipes are downright absurd in what they require for crafting.

Also, with the shift toward relying more heavily upon indies for raw goods, there is also a shift onto players of GMH crafters to keep a wider selection in stock, so as to not weigh their staff down with thumbing through the archives of clan item databases in search of an orange silk sari with pink ruffles.

I think this would be beneficial to all.

[Namino]

I can say from experience that some clans are already doing this.

Is this not universal?

[boog]

No.

[azuriolinist]

+1. I'd love to see this.

Edit:
I should add why: It seems a bit of a hassle having to make staff comb through the item database near every time an order is made. If craft recipes for the clan's crafts were available, which I know would probably take a heck of a while to tidy up, I think it would save a lot of time and back-and-forth between player and staff, long-term.

[MeTekillot]

I think craft recipes should be a dropdown on the main website.

[boog]

Honestly, I tend to agree with that. If we're going to be so frank and open about class branching, then why not also just give a dump of crafting recipes? I don't see a negative to this at all.

[Hauwke]

People who care about such, will complain about the fact that amos can now make their super fantastic thingamabob now because that super rare ubsr crafted item is now known to people how it was made. Oh, a thin bit of bone and a feather from the butt of a Templar? Sure.

[boog]

Well, clan stuff would remain clan stuff. But generally, I think that ingredients lists are super useful. And then we should all be able to see what our clan is capable of making when in it.

And if someone gets sour about materials for whatever, they can submit their own custom craft take on it to simplify.

[Hauwke]

I actually missed the clan part of the title, so my case is entirely moot because they should be sharing recipes anyway. Nevermind!

[teacup]

I like learning crafts, having a list available ruins the fun of figuring things out.

[boog]

Well, that's just it. When you're in a clan, you're supposed to *learn* the crafts. And there are so many items that make up components of recipes in this game that it's truly a daunting, unwieldy thing. Even if you spent all of your time in game trying to piece everything out, you would never be able to find every craft. :/

A lot of us don't have time for that sort of knowledge we're meant to have, vnpcly.

[teacup]

It's not Pokemon. If you're in a clan where you should know something, ask Staff for like an animation, ask your leader for like a lesson, or like, interact with the other clan people around you and learn that way.

[boog]

There are a lot of assumptions in your post. I have stated above why asking leaders or other clan members might not be prudent or efficient. There is a lot lost to the passage of time.

And I tend not to ask for staff animations because they've better things to do with their time than to catalog something that could and possibly should already be cataloged. I don't think most people would feel right asking staff to animate for them for x, y, or z craft when ostensibly, they should also have the knowledge from vnpcs if their PC superiors do not know.

Also, a list would *save* staff time so they wouldn't have to animate or be asked to supply any sort of list by different clan members at different times. This would, in the end, lessen their workload, too, especially if they are being routinely asked to load objects that are craftable.

[Namino]

The root of this issue is largely due to the opaque nature of crafting. An alternate fix that I would be able to get behind totally is being able to assess a single component of the craft and be shown all crafts that you can do with that one component and any other components.

So you can see how to make a bahamet axe when all you have is the shell (and think, "I bet I could do something with this and a thornwood branch), instead of having to push other objects up against it until you try some thornwood and inspiration strikes.

[boog]

I would agree with that system, but I think it is even less likely to be implemented than a master list of crafts.

[Tiktak]

For myself, I do not see the value in this and feel it would diminish my enjoyment of the game for I too enjoy learning and that delicious surprise of finding a new recipe or craft that my character can be excited about. I am a fan of things that push fellow clan-mates to interact and find it far more immersive and realistic to learn from PCs, be they peers or bosses. Learning from vNPCs offers no interactive value. I fear that lists would simply be copied, shared, and used without respect to immersion as has happened in the past.

[Brokkr]

And then you use the command on "a piece of bone" and wade through the multiple hundreds of recipes.

[boog]

@tik

But therein is the issue. Staff have sort of quieted down custom/master crafting. So even if I could not, for the life of me, piece together what materials might necessitate x, y, or z, and I wanted to create something similar, it would be a waste of time since there is already a craft for that in game and I can simply not, for the life of me, figure out its ingredients. I do not even know if it would be approved.

What harm is there going to be in listing the materials needed for clan specific crafts? You can share it, sure, but you can not make it unless you are clanned. I know that I do not have hours upon hours to pour into trying to piece together every single little bit of bone or whatever that might be a necessity for a craft. Some of them are needlessly complex. :/ And I'd much rather play with all of you than have to figure out how in the hell to make some latch clasped bone scaled sack, when I've already got the latch, the clasp, and the bone scales, and I have no idea what else it might be!

[Tiktak]

It hurts no one to simply open a request ticket and communicate with Staff.

Here is the harm I have bore witness to:
- Unrealistically knowing a recipe upon immediately joining said clan despite being a Recruit.
- Outsider unrealistically knowing a recipe and saying just use x, y, and z and make this for me.
- Not allowing for me to enjoy what I enjoy about this game in finding new ways to do this.
- Diminishes learning from interacting with other crafters in a clan aka learning from peers and bosses.
- Unrealistically knowing how to make something your character has zero craft ability in such as if you lack jewelrymaking but you know this ring Lord Fale wants is made put of x, y, and z.

Still a hard pass for me.

[boog]

I'll rebut the peers and bosses bit again, simply because it has happened relentlessly to me: the knowledge is lost because it is not passed on through SPONSORED ROLE and staff changes. Maybe there should be a list given to clan leaders so they can be the buffer between staff and 'plebs'. Would that be fair?

[MeTekillot]

- Unrealistically knowing a recipe upon immediately joining said clan despite being a Recruit.

Handwave it was taught to you virtually.

- Outsider unrealistically knowing a recipe and saying just use x, y, and z and make this for me.

Player complaint. But player complaint or not, who does this harm?

- Diminishes learning from interacting with other crafters in a clan aka learning from peers and bosses.

How? You can still learn from them. 'Teach' command has coded benefits.

- Not allowing for me to enjoy what I enjoy about this game in finding new ways to do this.

Then don't use this hypothetical system.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'll rebut the peers and bosses bit again, simply because it has happened relentlessly to me: the knowledge is lost because it is not passed on through SPONSORED ROLE and staff changes. Maybe there should be a list given to clan leaders so they can be the buffer between staff and 'plebs'. Would that be fair?

When I played a crafter, I was in support of the idea of posting these recipes on clan forums. Along the way, while still playing that crafter, I decided that ultimately, I was no longer in support of that idea.

But Boog's idea here. Yes - that is absolutely the way to go about it. Because I will say, it's fucking stupid to ever play in a clan that doesn't have, somewhere, someone who knows the recipes to everything that clan makes. And I absolutely believe that the leaders of that clan should be the ones with this recipe-history available to them.

[Cabooze]

maybe make it into something IC, making a new command.
IE: Instruct <character> <keyword(s)>, pulls specific words of one recipe from a database that honestly should be generated for every house for house-specific crafts, and for example in some sort of IC lesson, give examples and demonstrations of crafting shirts if you're part of Kadius, and so then you type instruct amos shirt, and it echoes to them something like "You think 'an embroidered, green silk shirt' could be made from 'a length of green silk', and 'a length of white linen'."

That's the only way I could see something like having a listed thing for people to browse from be implemented without it being completely OOC and a, "Welcome to Salarr, here's all the amazing mastercrafts you now have no idea how you now know but you do!"

[KittenLicks]

Here is the harm I have bore witness to:
- Unrealistically knowing a recipe upon immediately joining said clan despite being a Recruit.
- Outsider unrealistically knowing a recipe and saying just use x, y, and z and make this for me.
- Unrealistically knowing how to make something your character has zero craft ability in such as if you lack jewelrymaking but you know this ring Lord Fale wants is made put of x, y, and z.

These are all problems with the current system too. If I play in Kadius once, and someone teaches me that the pink quirri-patterned  cloak is made with X, Y and Z, there's a decent chance I'll remember that on my next char. I'm assuming people are being good about it now, and not carrying that knowledge over where it isn't appropriate, so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't do the same if it was on the boards.

- Diminishes learning from interacting with other crafters in a clan aka learning from peers and bosses.

I do agree with this though. Learning from people is like 80% of the fun in merchant houses for me. It'd be a real loss to the game if clanleads started going "what you don't know how to make the crystal sword of smiting yet? go ask around the compound." instead of teaching new hires.

[Mercy]

I'm all for a clan-leader only board thread that has a list of clan-specific recipes. Preservation of knowledge without over-saturation.  It seems like the sort of thing that should be on-hand for people stepping into a sponsored role, as the characters themselves aren't exactly fresh on the scene although the player may be.

[ShaLeah]

I am in favor of posting ALL (yes, all) CLAN SPECIFIC recipes in an archive only accessible to family members and full on crafters and merchants. Joe Shmo recruit apprentice should not have access to these recipes. For me it has always been frustrating and utterly unrealistic for a family member not to know his own family's wares. All of them. They've spent 20 yrs learning their business, they know how to read and write? Are you telling me the GMHs aren't keeping track of these things? That just doesn't sound plausible.

Hey sponsored role family crafters types! Write down your creations put that shit in the library. Posthumously hook a homie up. 

As the crafting system is now, you can't make clan specific shit once you're out of the clan anyway so until you get a master forger class wtf are you even worried about? They can't be made outside the clan!

I agree, one could just ask staff and wait the hours, days, weeks or months (yes, months) it can take them to answer back. OR! Interrupt your Merchant's Byn-Borsail-Gick orgy and get them to tell you between mudsex marathons!

No interaction? I call kankshit on that.  I've watched craters shoot the shit about the things they make for hours upon hours anywhere they meet.   As long as they're creating in the same place, you're bound to run into each other. Come on, don't use lack of interaction as a means to keep information that should be available suppressed. Y'all know damn well in a clan people are a way away. 

The biggest "problem" I see with this is staff having to put in tedious annoying hours combing through hundreds of thousands of items clanned salarr/kadius/kurac and create separate "adult" boards for each clan. I dunno if there's like a search option that'll make that easier but I can only guess that maybe it's not as simple as a copy paste thing.  Prrretty sure this wouldn't be a priority to them.

Yo, and all you crafters out there don't even play.  I have seen y'all's lists. How you think Lord Foofybritches knows about that special jewelry box/spice pipe/sekrit magick potion component? His player made it 5yrs ago when he played a kuraci crafter as a mul.

This should be given serious consideration I think.

[lostinspace]

Have items not been moved to a database yet? This could be part of that project. If they are, there might be a very elegant solution here that requires almost no man hours. Maybe minimal for verification. If they are in a DB, is there a column in a table for clan?

A web portal to that specific view of the DB seems like the best approach.

[Riev]

Anecdote:

Many years ago, I discovered that there was a way to make this one particular food item that was an intermediary. Think... pie crust, or pancake batter. There was no way to turn this pie crust into a pie. This pancake batter worked in no way to make a recipe.

I bugged it. I think someone passed it over.
I bugged it a couple months later, after trying every combination I could think of.

Morgenes looked, and it turned out the Pancake Batter was an intermediary in ONE other recipe. It was a Kadian-only recipe and nobody knew it. He later determined that if the Pancake Batter was craftable by anyone, then so should the pancake, and if Kadius wanted their own fancy Pancake they can make one.

Since then, a lot of people have been using that recipe, because the description was very well done. But nobody, for years, knew about it, despite it being a clanned recipe.

I am in favor of posted clan-only recipes in a place where AT LEAST Clan Leaders can access them. If they're a clan leader, the assumption is you trust them enough to not tell everyone the secret pancake recipe... but if they do... I'm sure Kadius has ways to remedy that.

[valeria]

I am in favor of posted clan-only recipes in a place where AT LEAST Clan Leaders can access them.

Pretty much my take on this.

[In Dreams]

I think craft recipes should be a dropdown on the main website.

I just really really wanted to echo this. In other games I love making stuff! But, on Armageddon I almost dread even trying it because recipes, even for simple things, can require such specific items out of such a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge database of them, let alone if you wanna make something fancy and fun that you KNOW is craftable but hey oh, you don't need a slender, twisted half-branch of agafari, you need a slender, half-twisted branch of agafari or you can't make it. Sucks for you, loser!

[PriestlySiren]

I believe that there should be at least a way to easily access clan-specific crafting recipes for the clan leaders. I think that clan turnover happens a great deal, and I, personally, don't remember any clan-specific crafts. And I don't keep a list of crafts I've been told about or discovered. So this sort of thing would help.

I'm also for all clan-specific crafts to be makeable with the appropriate clanning.

[Riev]

Just wanted to add that the reason I think Clan Leaders should have access:

• Clan leaders should have staff trust, in their role, to handle the information appropriately
• It allows a leader to showcase their 'knowledge' that they've attained from years of studying and training
• Clan-only items are, likely, being made or talked about in the clan halls, virtually. Leaders should at least know what is being made in their own crafting halls.
• Auctions and other social events often hinge on these "one time offers" or "rare goods". Leaders should know what their people are adept at creating, to feed these social gatherings.
• GMH leaders should know if they have plans for Borsail armor, or other clan-specific armor AND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. Too often someone has ended up with clan-only armor, not being in that clan, because it randomly loaded in the warehouse.

[Bebop]

I'm absolutely in favor of this.

I was given an item with a character I had and turns out it was actually a player created item and it didn't actually fit the scenario since it had only been designed a few IG years back.  I've also found a ton of clan-specific stuff that I had no idea existed.  Nobody did.  Or even what it was for.

Not only do I think this should be a thing, I believe the documentation and lore behind each item between a thing.  Why was this created?  For who?  Should these only be going to certain people in society?  I also think that every clan leader should have a list of any clan specific items that are available IG, even if it's livery they have to purchase from Kadius.  Call it a picture catalog.  Stationary, clothes, weapons, etc relevant specifically to your clan are things clan leaders should know about.  Otherwise, why should they exist?

I think this is definitely more doable on an OOC level than an IC one too.