New Command Idea: Reveal: Removal of hoods, facewraps & masks upon arrest.

[ShaLeah]

If we manage to subdue someone we should be able to forcibly lower the hood/remove masks/facewraps off people to "reveal" their face. This is especially important for soldiers and the incriminate code, no more 'my hood was up how did they know it was meeeeeeeeee'. If you're a soldier dragging someone to jail wouldn't you automatically yank their shit down to get a good look at then? I would.

[MeTekillot]

Idk that "my hood is up how did they know it was me" was ever something that was entertained more than lip service before they etwo greatsworded you anyway. Not that I've ever seen. I'd like this command if identity obscuring items actually hid your mdesc. Otherwise what's the point? Someone can just look at you.

[cnemus]

I would also like something like this, although I would personally make it tied to subdue, but separate. Sometimes you just want to snatch that hood/mask off without actually subduing them.

There are plenty of people who don't see though hoods and masks as if they aren't there. I may not recognize you in that mask, but I see a masked figure in a dark alley, I will assume you mean to kill me. If I see it in a public place, I assume you are a thief. Unless you're at a party... wearing a mask in public is not normal (with the exception of a couple of specific locations).

Encouraging people to recognize everyone they 'look' at regardless of attire is not the direction I would want to see the game go in... even if it is currently fairly common. It may stand out when people say Amos with the brown hair and blue eyes was the one in the hood and mask, cause I know them so well... but it is less obvious when 12 people just ignore them or say I didn't get a good look.

[Heade]

I agree. I'd love to see a command to reveal someone, NOT tied to subdue. Then we could have mdesc hiding masks and stuff in game without it being a game breaking cryfest.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree. I'd love to see a command to reveal someone, NOT tied to subdue. Then we could have mdesc hiding masks and stuff in game without it being a game breaking cryfest.

Agreed, though I'd rather it be a skill, not a command. You should have to train it in order to be able to do it without the victim being subdued. I'd give it agility as a base-stat, defended against by defense and agility. And I'd make this skill auto-succeed if the target was subdued or unconscious.

[Lizzie]

Removal of masks and facewraps is not in the same category of pulling someone's hood down. Anyone standing behind anyone else can give the top of a hood a tug, and boom. It's down. This is not true of someone wearing a mask or facewrap.

I wouldn't mind too much, having a hood-yanking feature added to the command list. But it wouldn't be a skill. It WOULD, however, be considered rude and invasive, from an RP point of view, unless it was someone of authority dealing with an official situation.

Unmasking and removing facewraps should be considered the same as unlatching someone's backpack. Perhaps it can be added to the unlatch skill; if you succeed, the object ends up in the masked person's loose inventory - not in yours. From that point, you can try and steal it, if it interests you. However, because it's something on someone's face, they would ALWAYS notice that it was done. You can successfully do it - but it would always be noticed. Maybe with a 3-second delay to give them a chance to react, either put it back on their face, run away in shame (if they're hiding a deformity for example), or take the first shot at your own face, perhaps. The crim-code would ALWAYS be triggered, if you're doing it in a zone that has the crim code. UNLESS you're a person of authority in that area, as I mentioned.

[nessalin]

Is this so Fred can show the rest of the gang that it isn't a ghost, at all, but really Old Man Wilkin's wearing a disguise?

[Hauwke]

I feel like if it is not a skill check, then it will end up with people playing in The Arm going around and dehooding everyone they see. As it is, the second you have a hood up anywhere people are telling you to take it down.

[Cind]

I was always confused about how militant people become sometimes about people wearing hoods/masks/facewraps and how other times they seem to completely ignore it, until someone told me that someone was wanted and they were looking for this person.

Its not really feasible to me to expect every one of the two hundred people who come into the Gaj at some point that day to have their hoods down because you're looking for the woman who stole Crafter Talia's 'piece of bone' but we do a lot of things in the game that wouldn't make sense if we were actually standing there. Especially when it comes to people stealing our shit and criminality.

I like a command of some sort that gives plenty of delay and allows the removal of another person's facewear (one command) and a second command that would allow you to lower their hood, as long as you could control who got these two commands (they would have to be separate strings of code, but perhaps filed under the same command, with hoods being drawn down first, then facewrap.) Perhaps only the law enforcement of the region, leaders in their militias, would be able to use this command, or anyone who wasn't a recruit or private.

[Lizzie]

I was always confused about how militant people become sometimes about people wearing hoods/masks/facewraps and how other times they seem to completely ignore it, until someone told me that someone was wanted and they were looking for this person.

Its not really feasible to me to expect every one of the two hundred people who come into the Gaj at some point that day to have their hoods down because you're looking for the woman who stole Crafter Talia's 'piece of bone' but we do a lot of things in the game that wouldn't make sense if we were actually standing there. Especially when it comes to people stealing our shit and criminality.

I like a command of some sort that gives plenty of delay and allows the removal of another person's facewear (one command) and a second command that would allow you to lower their hood, as long as you could control who got these two commands (they would have to be separate strings of code, but perhaps filed under the same command, with hoods being drawn down first, then facewrap.) Perhaps only the law enforcement of the region, leaders in their militias, would be able to use this command, or anyone who wasn't a recruit or private.

As has been said countless times in the past: if you want to stand out, make yourself conspicuous. Wearing a hood, facewrap, or mask in the Gaj is conspicuous. There's no reason for it other than a) you forgot you were wearing it - player error, or b) your character is trying to hide his face.

If he's TRYING to hide his face, it stands to reason people will be suspicious of that. If it's a player error, it's easily enough remedied by an IC apology and quick compliance, OR going "ooc player error sorry"

In some places, wearing a hood up is common, and not unusual, and totally acceptable. In the Gaj, it's not virtually common or usual. The Gaj is where people go to see each other, not to hide from each other. Hideous scar-hiding notwithstanding, there's just no reason why someone who is NOT trying to intentionally obscure their identity, to obscure their identity in the Gaj. And so anyone who is, will automatically be suspect of doing something wrong. That kind of response to obscuring your face/head IS usual and common, and no one should be surprised or upset that it happens often.

[Cind]

Yeah I haven't been playing there much, I get it.

To be clear, I think the command for this, if a person were both hooded and facewrapped, it should lower the hood first, and -then- undo the facewrap. Both commands would have a serious lag and require that the unwrapper not be doing anything else, like restraining the masked person for example, or guarding an entrance. Perhaps you could also need them to have both hands free for the second command, as the thing would be tied on. I guess anything that makes criminals more vulnerable is something I'm not rooting too much for, but if done like this I'd be pretty happy with it, and it would tip the scales a couple of ounces in the favor of any friends who are hiding in the shadows attempting to rescue you.

[ShaLeah]

Is this so Fred can show the rest of the gang that it isn't a ghost, at all, but really Old Man Wilkin's wearing a disguise?

Can't tell if you're being funny or saying it's a stupid idea.  Maybe both.  Heh.


Anyway, Lizzie brings up a good point.  Pulling someone's hood down is different than yanking a mask off their face.

This idea came about because when my homies pick up a criminal on their way to jail don't you wanna know who it is you arrested? I would think that when that HG soldier is arresting you he'd want everyone seeing you in that drag of shame through the city to the jail.  Hence the subdued.  It was an idea for my soldiering mostly since they're really the only ones that SHOULD be able to just yank your hood down and force you to reveal.

That said!

Hood pulling should be a command.  Anyone should be able to do it.  It should be considered rude as fuck and it'll probably start some (yay) conflict.

I always always hated the change to masks.  It rendered them useless and now everyone wears them like an accessory. Totally RUINED every masquerade orgy my characters have attended.

The mask pulling COMMAND should only be  doable while subdued.

If we were to make it like unlatch it would definitely be a crimcode triggering skill out in the open but think about it... you wouldn't be allowed to wear masks anywhere cause of the mdesc hiding which not only would raise the amount of sid masks cost but make it impossible (illegal) to get one, people would die for one and all the GMHs would have a hand in doing illegal shit which is awesome.  You could even create one if your skill levels at certain crafting talents r0xd.

A stealthy skill that allowed you to undo the fastenings of a mask don't feel realistic to me. Too close, too much hair, too much helm/hat in the way. Maybe if it falls off and on the ground with a delay for the fall? You might not notice your belt is lighter but you sure as fuck would notice if your mask fell off your face and you're suddenly revealed.

[Lizzie]

I can't be on board with mdesc-hiding masks. They don't make sense and they're not believable. In order for them to be even remotely believable, they would require that mdescs ONLY describe the face and head, and not the rest of the body. Since mdescs, when done "right," include features of the entire body head to toe, then a mask worn on the head cannot POSSIBLY be expected to hide the entire body. This goes beyond the suspension of disbelief. That's why I'm against it.

[X-D]

I am not, I have no issue with it at all. You can gain the essential info about the rest of the body through ass -v.

Also, Lizzie, if you have an issue with that but you don't have an issue with eyes in sdesc or the MANY MANY things that people put in mdesc that are always hidden by gear...yet for some reason you can always see them?

Player describes PC head to toe and you have a problem with a mask hiding that and the boots not? Heh.

Done PROPERLY a Mdesc only describes things that are easily noticeable no matter what gear is being worn short of mdesc masks. If this was the case and you and others actually did do your mdesc properly then there would be no issue with a mask hiding mdesc as the rest can be gained with assess.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh, it angers me to no end that true masks don't hide main desc. I absolutely wish they did.

I was thinking about this before - if how the mask hid the main desc was really the issue, then just give each sneaky person who's reached a collective x and y in sneak and hide the ability to MC one mask that only they could wear. This way they could tailor that mask's description to meet their normal descriptions, with staff oversight as to acceptability. And of course, I'd hate to see that person able to be targeted, by anything not psionic, by their normal keywords. If you try to 'kill x', x should be either their true name because you actually do know them, or their current keywords, ie: figure, masked, etc.

Now, I mean, honestly, having each sneaker/raider/etc MC their own masks is too much for me. Write the mask right and throw a bunch in the game. Stop expecting to know who people are via their main descriptions. Let people actually be anonymous until they get caught fucking up. Getting run up on by someone wearing a mask is terrifying - you have no recourse but to run, fight, or do what's asked, and you have no idea who they are without proper sleuthing. And you don't get to way your local templar to tell them that fully-masked-up Ron Jeremy is in the desert killing your ass.

[CodeMaster]

When mdesc-hiding masks were a thing, they were a lot of fun.  They were also a bit weird in that they were rare items.  If a templar or soldier caught you carrying a mask, s/he'd confiscate it.  It was kind of weird because often these were just bits of cloth.

On the other hand, you used to not be able to walk around hidden.  Sneakies have gotten way more powerful since back in the olden days.

I'm just spitballing, but if mdesc-hiding masks were brought back in, I think it would be a fair compromise to give lookers some extra information when they manage to look person. Stuff that's normally available via a sequence of other commands like X-D suggests.  For example:

Code Select Expand


The male in the purple sandcloth mask has arrived from the north.

>
Hurling it towards the bar, the male in a purple sandcloth mask drops the head of the green-eyed dwarf.

> l male
This person is wearing a purple sandcloth mask, which completely obscures...
...golden trim, lending it an overall festive appearance.
He smells like berries.
He is slightly taller than you, but looks lighter.
He looks a bit winded.
The figure in a purple sandcloth mask is in excellent condition.
He is using:
<across face> mask
..
The male in a purple sandcloth mask runs north.



As for the main topic of the thread, I don't think yanking hoods should be possible unless you have full control over the person, in which case I think it's fine (just like removing any other object).  The code can't say how a person is wearing their hood.  Are they wearing it with their facewrap wrapped around it?  Is it glued to their scalp in their tdesc?  Who knows.

[Lizzie]

I am not, I have no issue with it at all. You can gain the essential info about the rest of the body through ass -v.

Also, Lizzie, if you have an issue with that but you don't have an issue with eyes in sdesc or the MANY MANY things that people put in mdesc that are always hidden by gear...yet for some reason you can always see them?

Player describes PC head to toe and you have a problem with a mask hiding that and the boots not? Heh.

Done PROPERLY a Mdesc only describes things that are easily noticeable no matter what gear is being worn short of mdesc masks. If this was the case and you and others actually did do your mdesc properly then there would be no issue with a mask hiding mdesc as the rest can be gained with assess.

Actually I haven't used eyes in a sdesc on my characters ever since you pointed that oddity out to me over a decade ago, and unless there's something remarkable about those eyes that would warrant them being in an sdesc, it does bug me.

As for mdescs being obscured by facial masks - I'm not talking about boots. I'm talking about the same thing I've always talked about. Things that assess -v do not tell, at all.

The twiggy, but barrel-chested man. (assess -v shows he is about the same size as you, because his weight is the same as yours and so is his height. But his shape is remarkable because he wears most of his bulk in his upper torso).
The green-skinned peg-legged woman
The guy with purple hair that runs down his back - that a mask would only cover the top part of, leaving MOST of it exposed for anyone to see.

The voluptuous generously-inked woman - who is covered head to toe in tattooes and ANY amount of bare skin would display those inks, even though they are not added as "worn" items but instead are in the mdesc. If she were naked, or wearing only a skirt and halter, and had the mask on, you're saying you wouldn't notice that she was a) voluptuous and b) covered in ink.

That makes zero sense at all.

[Cind]

I heard that's basically why masks were removed. Being able to transform from the tentacular, purple-eyed elf into the brown-haired human woman because you had a mask with you with no magick involved is very not in keeping with how the game is supposed to work.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Uh, I don't think anyone wants to see the brown-haired woman turn into the purple-eyed elf. I think most of us would just like the figure in a jade-crossed mask also be the figure with no main desc.

[Lizzie]

Uh, I don't think anyone wants to see the brown-haired woman turn into the purple-eyed elf. I think most of us would just like the figure in a jade-crossed mask also be the figure with no main desc.

But until you can figure out how to prevent the brown-haired woman turn into the purple-eyed elf, you will have that problem. And that problem is incredibly jarring, immersion breaking, and crosses the line by a few miles over that magick division line called "suspension of disbelief."

[X-D]

Actually, masks existed that simply made the mdesc nul...so....

[Krath]

Why not bring back the mdesc hiding mask and make being able to see a majority of their mdesc based on the watch and scan skill? Or something to that nature.

[ShaLeah]

Why not bring back the mdesc hiding mask and make being able to see a majority of their mdesc based on the watch and scan skill? Or something to that nature.

With your face hidden all you can tell is their size really, clothing. Hide the face and when you look at them you will see the same as when you assess.

[CodeMaster]

The twiggy, but barrel-chested man. (assess -v shows he is about the same size as you, because his weight is the same as yours and so is his height. But his shape is remarkable because he wears most of his bulk in his upper torso).
The green-skinned peg-legged woman
The guy with purple hair that runs down his back - that a mask would only cover the top part of, leaving MOST of it exposed for anyone to see.

I guess this is another reason they had to be rare.  The people in possession of them had to be trusted to go through the rigamarole of actually disguising themselves within the constraints of fair suspension of disbelief

[Lizzie]

Why not bring back the mdesc hiding mask and make being able to see a majority of their mdesc based on the watch and scan skill? Or something to that nature.

With your face hidden all you can tell is their size really, clothing. Hide the face and when you look at them you will see the same as when you assess.

The twiggy, but barrel-chested man. (assess -v shows he is about the same size as you, because his weight is the same as yours and so is his height. But his shape is remarkable because he wears most of his bulk in his upper torso).
The green-skinned peg-legged woman
The guy with purple hair that runs down his back - that a mask would only cover the top part of, leaving MOST of it exposed for anyone to see.