Magickal Spook Factor

[Akariel]

This thread has been heavily modified. Please post your political comments in a political thread on the off topic forum. While we at Armaggedon are always willing to be inclusive, conversation that derails into topics of current political events should be taken to the OOC forum. People in this thread, and in the game, do not need to be reminded of current world dilemmas. This is a roleplaying game, we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords, please enjoy that fact in the game-related forums here at Armageddon.org.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Thanks, Akariel. Really didn't expect that here. Appreciate not locking this up. I think we have and continue to squeeze some good thought out of the subject. It's good to see staff has their eyes on it, even If lamentably, it's to let us know when we're getting heated or messy.

[Heade]

This thread has been heavily modified. Please post your political comments in a political thread on the off topic forum. While we at Armaggedon are always willing to be inclusive, conversation that derails into topics of current political events should be taken to the OOC forum. People in this thread, and in the game, do not need to be reminded of current world dilemmas. This is a roleplaying game, we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords, please enjoy that fact in the game-related forums here at Armageddon.org.

Wait...my entire post was deleted, and I never once talked about current world political events. It was entirely about politics and propaganda in game, and how that relates more to a society as demonstrated in Orwellian literature than in RL. It was a long post that I clearly put thought and time into.

Why was it deleted?

As I look closer at what posts were moderated out...I'm still trying to figure out why on some of them. OnlyPlaysTribals' post had nothing to do with real world politics AT ALL, and it was moderated out too... I have a copy of the unmoderated thread open in another window for reference. I'd repost the quote here, but I'm not attempting to be combative or post something objectionable. I'm just trying to find out what parts of it are objectionable.

[X-D]

Most likely nothing, My bet is Akariel just went, How can I do this easily? I know, everything from this post on....INTO THE ABYSS!!!

That is how I tend to do things.

[Akariel]

Most likely nothing, My bet is Akariel just went, How can I do this easily? I know, everything from this post on....INTO THE ABYSS!!!

That is how I tend to do things.

The above is true. The subject of conversation was brought up and mentioned in multiple posts, so I removed the thread from that point down. If you would like to repost portions that are not related to the moderated subject, please do.

It should be noted we never 'delete' anything when we moderate, we just move it to a moderation forum. All the posts are there if you want to put in a request (to me, clanned GMH) to look over one of your posts, and possibly readd it to the thread.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

How about giving all mages ONE spell that can be very devastating and scary, and that is related to their element, but it's on a long timer, like an IG month, and costs all spell points. Mages would have to be extremely careful of when to use it, and other folks wouldn't know when or if they have used it. Like a sunburst for krathi for example. Area spell that does high damage and sets you on fire possibly.

[Cind]

I think giving everyone one or two scary spells would be great. Maybe two, and these would be more dangerous in tandem. Like, for example, preventing people and animals from leaving the room and also being able to breathe fire on them. You'd not start with the room trap, but would branch it right away, and then breathing fire would be your last spell.

[Rokal]

Code Select Expand

A Viv working magick around you might dehydrate you and suck the water from your waterskins.
A Krathi working magick around you might scorch your clothes, or catch them on fire.
A Rukkian working magick around you might cause you to sneeze dirt or be blinded by dust.
A Whiran working magick around you might knock you off your feet because of sudden gusts of wind, or blow something you're holding off in a direction.

I've always liked the idea of being around magick potentially being a coded detriment for mundanes. It's not something the magickers would try to do - it's something that would just happen around them when they cast spells that they couldn't help. Perhaps they could protect a few companions from these effects, but for the most part, just being around a casting mage would be scary code-wise for mundanes.

Code Select Expand

A Viv might curse you to always be thirsty for x IG hours.
A Krathi might curse you with a weak bloodburn.
A Rukkian might curse you to move slow for x IG hours.
A Whiran might curse you to be unable to listen for x IG hours.

I've always loved the idea of curses being a real thing, with overlapping curses between classes that made figuring out what sort of mage had cursed you hard or impossible. There wouldn't be a message telling you who had cursed you. You would just start experiencing these detrimental effects, and you would have to beg a magicker to uncurse you before the timer ran out. You wouldn't want these curses to be unplayable effects, just hindrances that just made the idea of being around a magicker unpopular.

Curses already are a real thing with a variety of spells. I do not think this stuff needs to be added, its trying to enforce something as real that is part of superstition and fear factor in the culture, making these things actually _real_ would just cause hair trigger reactions from people. Its not about enforcing this sort of thing more than it is how you present the magicker character and how they do what they do. These arent' real effects, theyre superstitions and stuff made up from a group of close minded and very much raised to believe that these things can happen people. Making them real would detract from that part of the setting.

Magicker subguilds may need some tweaking, but that won't change how magic is precieved, because its the players looking at it as a non threat, in my opinon, and in my experience.Got no idea how many times i've been disappointed to see someones reacting to magic with a neutral apathy than I have seen them react with fear.

[John]

This is going to be an unpopular post but here it is: You cant control however others behave or react. You can only control your own actions.

What you can do as a non-magicker:

React with visible fear or hate. Firing off 20 thinks is good and all. But it's not generally perceivable to any other PC. Way someone your disgust. Take your ale and go to another table or leave the bar completely. Make a warding gesture with your fingers to try to protect you against the witch.

Ostracize people who aren't suitably scared or intolerant of magickers. Start rumors about them being a witch. Attack them in the desert or alleyway for being a witch lover. Charge them more money for goods and services and tell other people why your doing it.

Arm soldiers can actually investigate people who are friendly to witches. Demand entrance to their room to look for evidence. Pay other people to spy on the witch lover.

Dont become tolerant of witches. Sure, maybe one of them saved your life 100 times over the span of a couple of years. But why would they do that? Surely there's a price you will eventually have to pay. Even if you do trust that one witch, dont give that trust to any other witch. Dont trust that you know a witches limitations.

Magickers can do other things:

Avoid putting yourself in situations where you are going to engage in casual conversation with non witches. This is hard to keep up, so if you do break it then ask really specific and intimate questions. Like how many teeth their mother has missing. Or when the last time they masturbated was and which hand did they use. Ask for a lock of hair and carefully put it away. Maybe wrap it around a figurine of a mercenary or elf. Ask for a drop of blood and smear it across a stone that you then carefully hide away.

Sit in a tavern by yourself at a table and watch people and mumble to yourself (whisper me curse the breed. Curse the breed).

Ask hunters and grabbers to get you creepy things. Like a scrab eyeball that has been urinated on by an elf. Or 10 sets of Charlton entrails. Or a rose that has been picked when only Jihae is in the sky.

If you are the kind to heal people then ask them for a scraping of skin or a rag that is drenched in their sweat. Or something they're wearing.

Try to predict the future as a whiran by throwing entrails in the air in the desert and then studying how they land on the ground. Drop the entrails and arrange them where they land.

Report anyone who tries to sleep with you. Clearly they're degenerates and likely a closet witch themselves.

Curse people if you have the ability to do so. Make sure to ingratiate yourself to the templarate first and target only the weakest of the weak.I

Look someone in the eye and wish them a safe day before leaving to return to your temple. Have your gaze linger before you leave.

For those who feel like there is no point because no one else does this: for every person who does roleplay correctly there is 1 less person doing the wrong thing. That's all we can control unfortunately.

[only_plays_tribals]

I'm just going to go ahead and call dibs on entrail-based divination for future concepts right now.

[only_plays_tribals]

Oh oh also don't forget that people who are tolerant/accepting of witchery are precisely the kind of people that turn to sorcery out of jealousy for the non-mundane and/or becoming enthralled with forbidden knowledge. Any non-witch talking about witch shit like they understand it and not in the context of "this is how I kill witches" is clearly trodding the dark path. Those people are dangerous.

How do you know what turns someone into an ashlayer? Maybe it's not that hard. It's rare but it's not like mythical rare. They get this way somehow, and you know it starts with someone saying, "I want to understand this" or worse "I think I could control that"

witch lover = prelude to becoming an eldritch abomination

[gotdamnmiracle]

John, I liked reading your comment. It has lots of interesting ideas for RP. Sadly, I don't think any of them are useful to the playerbase.

Overlooking the "RP better" base of your argument, which by this point has been beaten so far into the earth all its missing is a gravemarker, the things you suggest are simply suicidal. Why would I RP my PC being needlessly creepy when 1. The natural reaction on Zalanthas to most things is violence and 2. There's simply no reason to. 3. Nothing in the docs supports this?

You contradict yourself. If my PC is unmanifested thick skulled and superstitious, why then when they manifest would they be playing into those same superstitions now knowing a host, if not all of them, to be falsities? To take a real world example would be a person acting miserly for some reason because they married into Judaism.

The problem is ecsacerbated further because once the witches are playing the oppressed person the brunt of superstition is on the mundanes. This is problematic because, considering there's nothing religious about magick, there are no rites or rituals, hence nothing to be superstitious about.

Honestly, the desert elves work far better for a target of superstition. They have rites they perform coupled with weird beliefs, are often isolated and xenophobic, and there's the language and racial barrier.

If you want to see better superstition I suggest a petition to have the superstition page on the site expanded and also suggest that each spell, in the help info, have a suggested rite associated to it, because currently it's simply a cookbook and not the necronomicon.

[Brokkr]

If my PC is unmanifested thick skulled and superstitious, why then when they manifest would they be playing into those same superstitions now knowing a host, if not all of them, to be falsities?

Errr, how would they know they are false, exactly? What way would your character have to know that they aren't using ceremonial magick, but rather practical magick?

[gotdamnmiracle]

If my PC is unmanifested thick skulled and superstitious, why then when they manifest would they be playing into those same superstitions now knowing a host, if not all of them, to be falsities?

Errr, how would they know they are false, exactly? What way would your character have to know that they aren't using ceremonial magick, but rather practical magick?

The time you forget to light the candles and pray to Ra before your bath are you still clean afterwards?

They may not get it immediately, but if a chunk of magick is experimentation anyone could eventually figure out what is and isn't necessary. If locks of hair and half-elf teeth were actually helping then that'd be the norm. Zalanthas has had a lot of time to experiment with what works. You don't think some Krathi would pull you aside on week one and tell you to quit urinating on your components because it's not helping and the stench is unbearable?

[Eyeball]

witch lover = prelude to becoming an eldritch abomination

When I see extremist statements like this emerging, I wonder why we don't just declare elementalists equivalent to sorcerers and be done with it. It's pretty clear that some of you would like to put a gate on their quarter and just keep it locked.

[Brokkr]

• You want to experiment?  With magick!?!?  Are you insane?!?!?!  Someone way a TEMPLAR quick!!!!
• Locks of hair and half-elf teeth may be necessary for certain magicks to work.
• See point one on experiments but also...too bad magickers can't write down what they learn to pass on.
• My Krathi would publicly encourage the practice and privately imitate/explore/laugh at what you are doing.

[Brytta Léofa]

Add component crafting recipes that start from any humanoid corpse.

(Also, player corpses should never disappear; they should be starting points for several crafting recipes, naturally decompose into various unjunkable objects, and eventually, if unmolested, become skeletons; change my mind.)

[John]

John, I liked reading your comment. It has lots of interesting ideas for RP. Sadly, I don't think any of them are useful to the playerbase.

To be honest this was a much nicer response then I was expecting. So thank you.

Overlooking the "RP better" base of your argument, which by this point has been beaten so far into the earth all its missing is a gravemarker, the things you suggest are simply suicidal.

If you aren't careful, yes. But if you work hard to make yourself more powerful (by making yourself indispensable to the Powers That Be whether they're The Guild, House Borsail, House Oash, The Arm or The Templarate) then you'll be surprised with how much you can get away with.

Why would I RP my PC being needlessly creepy when 1. The natural reaction on Zalanthas to most things is violence and 2. There's simply no reason to. 3. Nothing in the docs supports this?

If my PC is unmanifested thick skulled and superstitious, why then when they manifest would they be playing into those same superstitions now knowing a host, if not all of them, to be falsities?

Because everyone hates and fears magickers. The only thing keeping a magicker alive is the fear stops people from outright attacking them. If you don't make people fearful of you then they will simply hate you and try to kill you.

You contradict yourself.

I'll need you to explain how.

If you want to see better superstition I suggest a petition to have the superstition page on the site expanded and also suggest that each spell, in the help info, have a suggested rite associated to it, because currently it's simply a cookbook and not the necronomicon.

I don't think making magickers a pseudo-religion is required to make them scary.

Did my post equate to "roleplay better"? Yes. It's pretty much the only thing each individual player has control over. Putting in curses that get placed on someone for being in the vicinity of a magicker for X period of time would simply make magickers OOC pariahs as well as IC pariahs. Once upon a time we had half-giants who could recite shakespeare and come to the most extroadinary conclusions. We had elves who were routinely trustworthy and thri-kreen and halflings walking around Allanak as if they were ordinary people. RP has improved dramatically on this mud and that's because PLAYERS made it happen by improving how THEY roleplay.

The only suggestion I've seen to address the problem is curses. That would make a hard to play role completely unplayable. If anyone has any better suggestions I'm willing to discuss them. But ultimately the only thing we as individual players can control is how we as individuals roleplay. If you don't want to roleplay a magicker-hater without the code forcing you to, then don't. But don't then turn around and complain about how nobody hates magickers.

[gotdamnmiracle]

In regards to the contradiction, I think acting out paints a target on your back in this game far more often than making you impervious to it. That is a matter of opinion between us. What you see as a straight train of thought appears contradictory to me.

That said, you and Brokkr make a lot of good points. I would absolutely love to see magick users portray this kind of occult mysticism. If it pops up in game after this discussion I will be thrilled.

My point about "not wanting to play" either a hater of magick or creepy magick user is less of not wanting too, but an attempt to determine why someone would do that, considering it appeared to me there waszero incentive one way or the other.

Lastly, the rites was a soft suggestion, similar to Zalanthan medicine. There are plenty of maladies with cures that are flavorful more than practical. If there were single sentence blurbs attached to some of the spells I'd find it pretty interesting. "Best to be performed in the shade, as the light of Suk-Krath will hasten the wilting of energies called forth", "one must be careful not to disurb the ring of salt lest the djinn escape", etc. I know Armageddon prides itself, regarding magick and religion on giving the players full agency, but I think a small push of direction would go a long way here.

[John]

Acting out does paint a target on your back. That's why it's important to start with hassling unaffiliated half-elves or unaffiliated poor northerners in the beginning. Also make sure you get the support of the Powers before you do too much.

There is zero reason to hate on people from an OOC perspective. If everyone got along everyone would achieve all sorts of goals. But it would also be against the docs and setting.

Ultimately we're playing a game of make believe where our character can be permanently killed at any moment. You can "play it safe" and avoid painting a target on your back, probably get bored playing a role that doesn't match your expectations and either suicide or stop playing the game. Or you can try to bring the world alive, encourage others to act in accordance with the docs by providing opportunities for them to do so and most likely die a quick and violent death.

I personally get bored if I play it too safe. I dont mind dying quickly and abruptly in an effort to bring the world alive.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Add component crafting recipes that start from any humanoid corpse.

(Also, player corpses should never disappear; they should be starting points for several crafting recipes, naturally decompose into various unjunkable objects, and eventually, if unmolested, become skeletons; change my mind.)

Yes.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

witch lover = prelude to becoming an eldritch abomination

When I see extremist statements like this emerging, I wonder why we don't just declare elementalists equivalent to sorcerers and be done with it. It's pretty clear that some of you would like to put a gate on their quarter and just keep it locked.

Well, the thing is, most commoners would probably be very happy to do that. The Ruling powers say we have to live with them, though, as long as they have that fucking gem around their throat so ... we ... do. Commoners are supposed to be far less educated about the realities of magick and those who wield them, generally speaking, than the Kings and their Templars and the Highborn, so our fear and terror and hate is based on all of that uneducation (I'm aware this isn't a real word) and powerlessness.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

... curses ... would make a hard to play role completely unplayable.

Why? I'm assuming it's because we would know that being around a magicker opened us up to curses. And we would know we'd been cursed because the code tells us we were. Assuming this is why ...

... what if we changed the idea of curses to something far less detectable, something that gave no messages at all? What if, for example, your thirst just ticked faster? Or your hunger? Or you took longer to recover HP? Or Endurance? Or you randomly lost movement points? Or you suffered from using the Way just a little more? Or failed to send a Way sometimes? Or suffered just a little more HP loss from an attack? Or were thrown off balance just a little longer from a failed ... kick, or bash? Or ... about a million other things.

And none of this ever sent the victim a message?

Maybe that would be less ... magicky to the victim? There's a good chance the victim would never know this was happening to them, and yet they would suffer in a way that would not be very intrusive at all. And yet, the idea still remains ...

... hmmm.

[John]

Why? I'm assuming it's because we would know that being around a magicker opened us up to curses. And we would know we'd been cursed because the code tells us we were. Assuming this is why ...

It isn't why. It's because you're taking a semi-iso role and turning it into a 100% iso role. You're stopping a magicker from being involved in any extended period of RP in a game where almost all meaningful RP requiring an extended amount of time to be carried out.

Armageddon lost thri-kreen and largely slaves as playable roles because of how isolated they are. Reducing magickers into becoming an equally isolated role removes something from the game for zero gain.

... what if we changed the idea of curses to something far less detectable, something that gave no messages at all? What if, for example, your thirst just ticked faster? Or your hunger? Or you took longer to recover HP? Or Endurance? Or you randomly lost movement points? Or you suffered from using the Way just a little more? Or failed to send a Way sometimes? Or suffered just a little more HP loss from an attack? Or were thrown off balance just a little longer from a failed ... kick, or bash? Or ... about a million other things.

And none of this ever sent the victim a message?

Maybe that would be less ... magicky to the victim? There's a good chance the victim would never know this was happening to them, and yet they would suffer in a way that would not be very intrusive at all. And yet, the idea still remains ...

... hmmm.

Notice how when someone gets something picked from their pocket most of the time they go ape shit and start scanning and metagaming their way to working out who did it? Well that's the effect all of your suggestions would have. Because even without echoes most of the suggestions will be easily noticeable to anyone who has a prompt.

And let's say you do come up with an effect that isn't noticeable, why bother coding it? We are suggesting curses for being around a magicker because we want to discourage people from being around magickers. But if we produce curses that are so subtle that they aren't noticed, then you end up with zero behaviour changed. So the curse has to be noticeable with a clear cause and effect. And if the effect is noticeable then you end up having magickers become an iso role.

[Lizzie]

What if these random oddities of the code (the ones you suggest become curses) happen randomly, anyway? And people can just blame it on magick. That's basically what superstition is all about, afterall. It's not about a mage ACTUALLY cursing a victim. It's about a victim experiencing something unfortunate or strange in their lives, and blaming it on the mage. The mage doesn't have to have anything to actually do with it. It's basically shifting the blame from "random natural life" to "the witch did it."

Things like taking a few ticks longer than usual to regen to full stamina, in a place that regens it quickly. Or the drunk code coming faster than usual, or tripping more often while you're only slightly intoxicated. Or your torch burning out more often when you use it at night.

If these things happen randomly, it shouldn't be hard to blame it on a witch. But once again, it falls to the player of the people these things are happening to, to roleplay their characters' superstition.