Custom Crafting, PC vs NPC Economy

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Oof. Now I feel like an unwitting instigator. I'm sorry! 

[senseofeven]

I think we are derailing the thread a little about how custom crafting should not be an obligation for the player to use to.. make 0 sid stuff to sell or fill the gaps. I think it should be up to the player's discretion of how or when they want to use. If they get killed for it, be it defying a highpowerPC's death threat or to stifle a rival's plot and progression.

I'd really rather pcs be encouraged to buy tools from other pcs, and for other pcs to actually make and sell tools. It's weird, when you want to buy tools, and pcs say sorry, they don't make tools, there's more money in swords... because they sell all their tools to npcs, and pcs buy those tools from npcs, instead of pc crafters... because they sell all their tools to npcs, and pcs buy those tools from npcs, instead of pc crafters... because they

Question is should there be incentives for these indie or clanned PCs to use their customcraft to make a non-craftable tool, craftable?

Or could let's say, having a toolmaking skill at (master), allow the player to make this non-craftable tool, craftable? But the limitation is the player can send/fill in /simple/ recipes but cannot make it prettier or customize it.

Code Select Expand

E.g:
Shovels now:
shovel blade
wooden toolshaft
desc: This stone headed shovel is affixed to a wooden toolshaft.

Shovel later:
shovel blade
BONE toolshaft
strip of leather
desc: This stone shovel blade is affixed to a bone toolshaft with some strips of leather to hold it in place.


So these experienced merchants, they have the choice to use up a mastercraft count to add and contribute into the game and sell you that shovel and still have your custom craft to make something never seen before for your RPs and glory.

I think that's a middle ground suggestion?

[WithSprinkles]

Crafters that are not independent, but work for GMHs, often use their monthly crafting slots on commission work for other players. These crafts are frequently used to drive plots, increase their own social standing or that of their employer or simply drain coins from the economy because a large portion of commission profits go to the clan account. This tends to be one reason why many merchants chose not to work with merchant houses, freedom to decide how to spend those slots and pocket the take.

Boiled down - Many players of merchants are making crafts that are not for themselves at all. They are making crafts for other members of the playerbase and providing a 'service' that other players who do NOT want to play merchants (at that time or ever) seek out and desire.

I realized this playing in a leadership position in a GMH. I tried to make certain that crafters working there got a chance to not only work on commissions, but ALSO crafts that would further their own personal character goals. Because that was fair.

I observed those crafters make beautiful, useful things. Things such as glossy red shoes (we needed to make more), new sandcloth clothes because we were trying hard to find nice ones to sell, non-silk nighties, zeers (because food rotting went into effect), digging sticks, gardening shears, orange dye (there was NONE craftable in game, so this player used a crafting slot to make some), advances in medicine (this character wanted to make luxury types), foods to increase our pantry for parties and so much more. These players made things for overall game improvement when offered the chance to make anything at all. Things I see people using again and again today.

So, looking at recent conversations, I personally view it all like this:

Some players have brought homemade cookies (crafts) to class and are sharing with everyone. Some of us are happy to have one cookie and are thanking them, maybe politely asking for another. Some others are looking on their plate and are angry that there are still cookies left, and think those people are selfish for not giving us the rest of their treats.

If there are not enough cookies, the onus is on the person wanting more to bake more. Don't ask people for all of theirs if they are already sharing and contributing. That's not very nice. The people playing crafters don't owe the playerbase their creative work and if they don't want to share, the entitlement isn't on their part.

I'd like it if we could find some middle ground, but I am out of ideas.

[Heade]

Some players have brought homemade cookies (crafts) to class and are sharing with everyone. Some of us are happy to have one cookie and are thanking them, maybe politely asking for another. Some others are looking on their plate and are angry that there are still cookies left, and think those people are selfish for not giving us the rest of their treats.

If there are not enough cookies, the onus is on the person wanting more to bake more. Don't ask people for all of theirs if they are already sharing and contributing. That's not very nice. The people playing crafters don't owe the playerbase their creative work and if they don't want to share, the entitlement isn't on their part.

I'd like it if we could find some middle ground, but I am out of ideas.

You know, I read this, and thought, "wow, what an apt analogy."

Then, I considered all of the times throughout my life when I used such an analogy without handholding people through it, and how often I was disappointed when lots of other people just didn't seem to "get it". I had put more faith in my audience to connect abstract ideas from an analogy and apply them in context than I probably should have.

I hope that isn't the case, here. Because I feel like you did an excellent job explaining it, personally.

[valeria]

[Points I agree with.]

I personally think that taking the "custom crafter" subguild should give you an extra custom craft per month, possibly only in combination with certain main guilds in that bottom left corner, such as artisan/ craftsperson/dune trader.  Or even just artisan.  I can't see any point of playing an artisan without taking that subguild.  If you're a heavy crafter and a person who enjoys playing crafters, custom crafting is the entire point.

[Boogerbear]

[Points I agree with.]

I personally think that taking the "custom crafter" subguild should give you an extra custom craft per month, possibly only in combination with certain main guilds in that bottom left corner, such as artisan/ craftsperson/dune trader.  Or even just artisan.  I can't see any point of playing an artisan without taking that subguild.  If you're a heavy crafter and a person who enjoys playing crafters, custom crafting is the entire point.

I think it depends on how many custom items staff are already having to deal with. Data needed.  I made a post to Ask the Staff because, while I think your idea has merit, if the staff is struggling to keep up with creating items already, then giving players the option to do two a month might be more than they can handle.

However, there has been talk about how pure merchants are "worthless" outside of a sponsored role because of the economy of the game providing no real incentive to make lots of coins. I don't entirely disagree and think that, to offset this, allowing the 3 heavy merchantile classes to custom craft AND choose an additional subguild would be great.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

[Points I agree with.]

I personally think that taking the "custom crafter" subguild should give you an extra custom craft per month, possibly only in combination with certain main guilds in that bottom left corner, such as artisan/ craftsperson/dune trader.  Or even just artisan.  I can't see any point of playing an artisan without taking that subguild.  If you're a heavy crafter and a person who enjoys playing crafters, custom crafting is the entire point.

I think it depends on how many custom items staff are already having to deal with. Data needed.  I made a post to Ask the Staff because, while I think your idea has merit, if the staff is struggling to keep up with creating items already, then giving players the option to do two a month might be more than they can handle.

However, there has been talk about how pure merchants are "worthless" outside of a sponsored role because of the economy of the game providing no real incentive to make lots of coins. I don't entirely disagree and think that, to offset this, allowing the 3 heavy merchantile classes to custom craft AND choose an additional subguild would be great.

This has been suggested many times before in lots of threads. Staff is concerned about magickers being able to custom craft, AND if I remember correctly, part of the reason custom crafting subguild was even implemented, was to cut down on the number of custom crafts already. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with anything by the way. I couldn't care less how it goes. Just pointing out that I don't think what you (and others) have suggested here is going to happen.

[Heade]

Staff is concerned about magickers being able to custom craft,

I don't think that a staff member said that. I could be wrong, but I believe this was just a mentioned side effect of tying both magick and custom crafting solely to subguilds, talked about by non-staffers. I don't think it was intentionally because staff didn't want magickers being able to custom craft. Why would that be a problem staff is concerned with?

to offset this, allowing the 3 heavy merchantile classes to custom craft AND choose an additional subguild would be great.

100% Agree. Just giving heavy mercantile's the innate ability to custom craft and still pick a subguild would completely satisfy me with the current crafting situation. And I don't think it would impact the custom craft backlog that much. All the ESGs that get custom crafting are probably really what is responsible for the custom craft backlog.

[Boogerbear]

[Points I agree with.]

I personally think that taking the "custom crafter" subguild should give you an extra custom craft per month, possibly only in combination with certain main guilds in that bottom left corner, such as artisan/ craftsperson/dune trader.  Or even just artisan.  I can't see any point of playing an artisan without taking that subguild.  If you're a heavy crafter and a person who enjoys playing crafters, custom crafting is the entire point.

I think it depends on how many custom items staff are already having to deal with. Data needed.  I made a post to Ask the Staff because, while I think your idea has merit, if the staff is struggling to keep up with creating items already, then giving players the option to do two a month might be more than they can handle.

However, there has been talk about how pure merchants are "worthless" outside of a sponsored role because of the economy of the game providing no real incentive to make lots of coins. I don't entirely disagree and think that, to offset this, allowing the 3 heavy merchantile classes to custom craft AND choose an additional subguild would be great.

This has been suggested many times before in lots of threads. Staff is concerned about magickers being able to custom craft, AND if I remember correctly, part of the reason custom crafting subguild was even implemented, was to cut down on the number of custom crafts already. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with anything by the way. I couldn't care less how it goes. Just pointing out that I don't think what you (and others) have suggested here is going to happen.

Yeah, magickers custom crafting?  I get why that would be a problem.


RE: Heade

I would be curious to see how many subguilds vs heavy merchantile enter custom craft items.

[Marauder Moe]

Why is magicker custom crafting a problem?

[Heade]

Why is magicker custom crafting a problem?

This. I'm really curious to see if there is any real reason for not wanting it. I haven't heard a single legitimate reason why it would be a problem.

[Boogerbear]

Because I'm not allowed to play them and, as a result, don't want them to be any fun at all.

but seriously, I guess the heavy merchantile guilds being able to custom craft wouldn't be game breaking.

When I think about a dune trader Whiran crossing the sands, well, that actually seems pretty cool.

Not letting magicker subclasses custom craft if they choose a heavy merchantile guild would lead to guild sniffing, too.

"Ah, you've been working for us for five years, now.... do you think you could design a red dildo signet ring for Lord Dildo?"

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Heade, you could be right about staff never saying it. Maybe I misread or misunderstood something. Wouldn't be the first time. I really thought that was a thing though, and that it had something to do with being able to craft magickal components.

Maybe staff will weigh in and let us know, I hope.

[Nao]

Heade, you could be right about staff never saying it. Maybe I misread or misunderstood something. Wouldn't be the first time. I really thought that was a thing though, and that it had something to do with being able to craft magickal components.

Maybe staff will weigh in and let us know, I hope.

It would be a lot easier to just not let people make component crafting custom crafts (just like you can't custom craft with brewing), or ban custom crafting anything magickal.

[Jihelu]

"ban custom crafting anything magickal."
As a magicker I've been told I'm not allowed to MC anything that has anything magicalish going on with it.

[Brokkr]

A lot of confusion and misinformation could be avoided if you don't post conjecture as fact.

All that has been said is that it is an unfortunate side effect.  As for component crafting, nothing has changed, as that was always excluded from Master Crafting / Custom Crafting:

Armor repair, brew, component crafting, wagonmaking, lumberjacking and liquid types (e.g. teas, alcohols, etc.) are not available for custom crafting at this time. Only crafted skills can be custom crafted for. If the effort behind a custom craft is not backed by a skill, then it will be rejected.

[Eyeball]

(example: economic futility of making a shovel)

My observation is that this holds true for a lot of crafts in the game. Between breakage and the lower sales price of the product, you're just plain better off selling the raw materials. They're only worth making if both (1) you've been grebbing the materials yourself, and (2) the shops are full of everything else because the game hasn't rebooted for a week or two.

[Boogerbear]

(example: economic futility of making a shovel)

My observation is that this holds true for a lot of crafts in the game. Between breakage and the lower sales price of the product, you're just plain better off selling the raw materials. They're only worth making if both (1) you've been grebbing the materials yourself, and (2) the shops are full of everything else because the game hasn't rebooted for a week or two.

There are six places (Red Storm, Nak, Cenyr, Luir's, Blackwing Outpost, Morin's) in the gameworld with multiple shops.

As far as grebbing materials yourself goes, this can be offset by haggle and learning moar trade routes.

[Eyeball]

..haggling for raw materials..

..traderoutes..

I don't find either of these convincing. Yes, there are some crafts you can make a healthy profit on, I didn't claim otherwise. But the bulk of them are a loss, or only a tiny profit over selling the raw materials, after breakage is considered, anywhere. Even master crafters break things often.

[mansa]

...

I would be curious to see how many subguilds vs heavy merchantile enter custom craft items.

As of my calculations from the updates page...

91 custom crafting submissions have been entered into the request tool so far this year.