New Idea for Heavy Mercantile Characters

[Heade]

So, there has been quite a debate going on recently regarding heavy mercantile characters and the fact that they cannot custom craft. During this discussion, an idea was brought up that I feel deserves its own thread. While I don't believe that this idea should replace the lack of custom crafting, I do think that this would be an excellent idea to implement for heavy mercantile characters in general, as a way to distinguish them from their lesser skilled counterparts via mixed classes or ESGs.

The idea would be to create and implement a set of skills that would modify the properties of an existing item in the game. Some example ideas follow:

Honing: The ability to sharpen an edged/piercing weapon to increase it's damage slightly, from it's base value.
Weighting: The ability to alter the weight of a bludgeoning weapon to improve it's damage capacity(perhaps adding 1 stone weight in the process)
Hardening: The ability to reinforce/harden a piece of armor to improve it's protective properties.
Pocket/Sheath: The ability to add a hidden pocket/sheath to an existing article of clothing that was not already a container.

These abilities could branch off of their associated crafting mastery, giving heavy mercantile classes something that makes them a bit different from their non-dedicated crafting counterparts. Things like Honing could even last a temporary amount of time, encouraging players to go back to said crafters to have their blades sharpened once more. (I'd suggest that it last about 4-5 days played.)

Thoughts? Alternate spins?

[Narf]

To do all of this without any code alterations you could have alternate items to the ones that already exist with these abilities inbuilt that require crafting skills higher than normal characters can obtain as a minimum to creating them.

So for instance:

Bone club: Weight 3 stones, dmg x, minimum craft skill: apprentice

Bone club: Weight 4 stones, dmg x + 1, minimum craft skill: master

Heade's system might be more interesting, but this system could be implemented right now without much effort.

[Heade]

To do all of this without any code alterations you could have alternate items to the ones that already exist with these abilities inbuilt that require crafting skills higher than normal characters can obtain as a minimum to creating them.

So for instance:

Bone club: Weight 3 stones, dmg x, minimum craft skill: apprentice

Bone club: Weight 4 stones, dmg x + 1, minimum craft skill: master

Heade's system might be more interesting, but this system could be implemented right now without much effort.

I actually think that would take more work, Narf. Because staff would have to duplicate and build an alternate version of every item in the database, which is considerable. Instead, if they created code that allowed someone to just give items a "bonus flag", it could apply to all items of X type that the ability is used on.

Your success chance of improving a weapon or armor could also have an inverse correlation to the protective/damaging properties of the item, too. So, a weapon that already has a very high damage value would be much more difficult to improve than one with a relatively low damage value.

[Narf]

I actually think that would take more work, Narf. Because staff would have to duplicate and build an alternate version of every item in the database, which is considerable.

Doing every item in the database would be a lot of work.

Doing a small sample from each craft skill would not.

Also the work could be distributed to non coders.

[Heade]

I don't think a few items added in a small sample that only heavy mercantile classes can craft is a long-term solution to them not having much of an identity for all they give up. I think a coded skill that could add a flag to any item of X type would work better to do that, and wouldn't be a particularly difficult thing to code.

[Miradus]

I don't think a few items added in a small sample that only heavy mercantile classes can craft is a long-term solution to them not having much of an identity for all they give up. I think a coded skill that could add a flag to any item of X type would work better to do that, and wouldn't be a particularly difficult thing to code.

A quality code a la Dwarf Fortress.

Everyone can create bone sword. But can you create a *MASTERWORK bone sword*?

Even if it literally did nothing in combat code and the value was the same at shops, you know people would want that bling.

[senseofeven]

I think if the code can be edited in a way somehow like..

Code Select Expand

craft bone into sword {
*pull sword from item database*;
swordNewDmg = +(RNG(@journeymanMIN * @journeymanCAP)));
tempItem = createSword(swordNewDmg);
*item materializes from tempItem*;
}

With journeyman, the RNG gives + 0.45 dmg, compared to a master with a higher RNG MIN and CAP attributes that gives +1.03 in dmg. I think I would feel that my PC is making special things. If not.. even the RNG() can be made with value that can be sold to shops. Better skilled brings in a bit more coin right? Hopefully, if this is possible, then staff wouldn't need to hard code these items inside their database.

I would definitely feel a little bit more special being a merchant, with some soft of perks.

[Heade]

I think trying to put RNG into the crafting process would be a much bigger job than just giving merchants a skill that adds a flag to an item, boosting it's damage/protective properties.

While I think this sort of idea is very cool to give exclusively to heavy mercantile classes, I think the flag idea is a more realistic request that would still give them that sense of being unique, and having "value" IG. It'd just be so much easier to code an ability that simply adds a single string of text to the mdesc of an item, and increases a single item value.

I generally don't think these "perks" that could be added to items should increase the sell value of the base item. Instead, this sort of thing could be marketed as a service by PCs IG, with any economic benefit coming purely from interaction with other PCs. It'd be a way to generate RP between characters, and give heavy mercantile PCs real value to other PCs in the game. Because, let's face it, that's where heavy mercantile PCs survival is supposed to come from. From being valuable to, and therefore protected by, other PCs.

That's also why I'm in favor of the effect of things like weapon/armor improvement being long-lasting, but temporary. By making it fall off eventually, it ensures that heavy mercantile characters continue to remain useful to PCs that desire these services on a semi-regular basis.

[Brokkr]

I think if the code can be edited in a way somehow like..

Code Select Expand

craft bone into sword {
*pull sword from item database*;
swordNewDmg = +(RNG(@journeymanMIN * @journeymanCAP)));
tempItem = createSword(swordNewDmg);
*item materializes from tempItem*;
}

With journeyman, the RNG gives + 0.45 dmg, compared to a master with a higher RNG MIN and CAP attributes that gives +1.03 in dmg. I think I would feel that my PC is making special things. If not.. even the RNG() can be made with value that can be sold to shops. Better skilled brings in a bit more coin right? Hopefully, if this is possible, then staff wouldn't need to hard code these items inside their database.

I would definitely feel a little bit more special being a merchant, with some soft of perks.

This would require a huge amount of work, due to how object instances are saved.

[Heade]

I think if the code can be edited in a way somehow like..

Code Select Expand

craft bone into sword {
*pull sword from item database*;
swordNewDmg = +(RNG(@journeymanMIN * @journeymanCAP)));
tempItem = createSword(swordNewDmg);
*item materializes from tempItem*;
}

With journeyman, the RNG gives + 0.45 dmg, compared to a master with a higher RNG MIN and CAP attributes that gives +1.03 in dmg. I think I would feel that my PC is making special things. If not.. even the RNG() can be made with value that can be sold to shops. Better skilled brings in a bit more coin right? Hopefully, if this is possible, then staff wouldn't need to hard code these items inside their database.

I would definitely feel a little bit more special being a merchant, with some soft of perks.

This would require a huge amount of work, due to how object instances are saved.

What about my idea, Brokkr? Of having a skill that just allowed heavy mercantile PCs to add a flag to an item with a single text string in the mdesc and a static value bump?

[Brokkr]

Not sure, it would depend on how it is done.  I know the previous suggestion won't work, due to looking into something similar for a Fence skill.

[Dar]

Not sure, it would depend on how it is done.  I know the previous suggestion won't work, due to looking into something similar for a Fence skill.

Hmmm. Is it possible to place scripts on items? So when an item strikes it can randomly activate a script. I imagine the code for that exists.

A sword created by an artisan with master swordmaking gets a script. When the item hits, an echo follows

The masterfully honed edge bites deep into the flesh.

And an extra X of hp of damage.

There can be other scripts that make the weapon worse instead if the skill is low

[Vex]

I like it, if only because I like the progression, of characters going from garbage to glorious.

Being able to have a plain, crappy old sword, with a poorly sharpened edge, to middle ground weapons, to something unique with a masterful edge, in all its scripted flashiness, would be great.

Not sure this shores up heavy crafters, but it might be a good money sink. Anything below master, is a permanent fixture (poor jobs, leave weapons indefinitely inferior, average and good jobs leave slight, permanent benefits), but a second application has a chance to apply the "master" effect, for a limited number of uses, 300 or so, and then it's gone, so you have to pay for the whole process all over again.

Do it three times, and the weapon breaks due to thinning material, and needs replacement.

Weapons don't, currently, break, or take damage, without special flags, afaik. This might be a neat alternative, and an additional perk, for playing the service classes.

Anything that adds meaningful wear and tear, and drives a need to replace gear, is good. I'd rather be replacing weapons and armor as my 'sid sink, than having spice rot... that's for sure. It'd also make people value and appreciate unique weapons, because once it's damaged, it's damaged for good. Makes you think twice, about using your 15,000 sword, to go hunt gurth, anyways.

Something similar for armor, like scaled reinforcements (reinforce leather with chitin, chitin with obsidian plates, etcs etcs) would also be very, very cool, and welcome. Let me buy armor, buy upgrades for it, and let it wear out as it does its job, until I have to replace everything, and start anew. Meaningful cost of profession/living, give me more!

[Marauder Moe]

Tacking on extra stuff on existing pieces of non-damaged armor doesn't strike me as very realistic.  I do kinda like the idea of "positive quality" for armor/weapons, though.

That said, taking a closer look at light-mercantile vs. heavy mercantile, it seems weird that light mercantile gets all its crafts at master level.

[Vex]

Tacking on extra stuff on existing pieces of non-damaged armor doesn't strike me as very realistic.  I do kinda like the idea of "positive quality" for armor/weapons, though.

My magicked up spider mount, and the flaming ethereal sword, on my dwarf, disagree with it being unrealistic.

And even if you want to argue that point, there are both modern and ancient instances, wherein people would place additional material (both to their benefit, and detriment) in the name of not taking a sword/bullet to the guts.

Various insurgent fighters, have been found using everything from 2x4 to pieces of street signs, placed into whatever body armor, if any, they possess, in hopes of surviving. Peasants, typically unable to afford armor, or armor of true worth, would sew additional leather, wood and even thick woven plant material, into whatever they possessed, when pressed into service.

It is a battlefield constant, that standard weapons, armors, and equipment, are improved or modified, with post-production materials. See, American hummers, being outfitted with steel plating by mechanics, in response to roadside bombs, and a lack of government funding for proper, official armor, or various armed forces, both special and otherwise, the world over, having everything from knives to heavy weapons to armor to electroics, modified, so as to perform optimally in the specific users hands.

Historically, and in modern times, as realistic as it gets, it's perfectly valid and common, for both home brew and professional grade modifications to be made, to various things, to improve them post-production. Rooted phones, modified OS, third party insoles for your loafers, all REALISTIC examples, of how third-party modifications, can benefit (and sometimes be a detriment, if shoddy) to things produced by original manufacturers.

This could exist, as a heavy crafter exclusive craft, with all the potential pros and cons, that would be of benefit (or detriment) to the entire pbase.

[Marauder Moe]

So we're talking mundane modifications to quasi-medieval body armor.  I'm not sure why you're bringing up magick spiders, humvees, and iphones.

A piece of armor is designed to be as thick and protective as it needs to be.  Aftermarket additions are more likely to compromise the integrity and/or the mobility of it.  A warrior who needs to up-armor is more likely to add extra pieces or layers rather than permanently modify something.  Someone adding new components is either making repairs or maybe, as you mentioned, a desperate insurgent rather than a skilled artisan armorer.

[Vex]

Your argument is it isn't realistic. I'm pointing out:

1. That there magick spider mounts, flaming swords from another plane, and dwarves, and that a "But realism!", is not a valid argument.
2. That there is valid, historical proof, from the real world, from medieval to modern times, that more often than not, perfectly serviceable equipment of all kinds, can and has been improved, through third party modifications. I use real world references, such as American servicemen using salvaged steel, to reinforce their vehicles, common phone modifications, and shoe inserts, because they're covering a broad spectrum of practical changes, made by third parties, to manufactured, "completed" goods.

That is, it is perfectly realistic and practical, within the confines of both real and imagined worlds, for professional manufacturers, ie heavy mercantile crafters, to perform beneficial and not-so-beneficial modifications, to weapons and armor.

It's also, pretty rad, imo.

Hopefully, I've clarified the post for you, since you were obviously too busy to actually read it, in your rush to shut down ideas.

[Delirium]

Vex, please refrain from flaming/combativeness. You were doing fine until that last paragraph. Argue the position, don't attack the person. Thanks.

[Marauder Moe]

I think Armageddon is a game where we do try to stick to realism when it comes to things not explicitly supernatural or part of the world/mythos.  That's why our characters eat, drink, and fear death.  It's why their armor degrades and weapons break.  We don't throw out all laws of physics and biology just because there are dwarves and magic and the like.

Now, I'm certainly not trying to argue against the concept of "modifying things".  That would be stupid.

I do, however, have some experience with medieval-style armor, in use, maintenance, and creation.  I'm not an expert, but I've worn and seen several pieces where previous owners tried to up-armor it.  These modifications always seem cumbersome at best, more often just flimsy.  The effort and materials would have been far-better spent constructing a new item, especially if we're talking about hypothetical Zalanthan master-craftsmen.

That said, if you have a source describing instances or techniques of improving existing pieces of medieval armor, I'd totally like to read about it.

[Nao]

Tacking on extra stuff on existing pieces of non-damaged armor doesn't strike me as very realistic.  I do kinda like the idea of "positive quality" for armor/weapons, though.

That said, taking a closer look at light-mercantile vs. heavy mercantile, it seems weird that light mercantile gets all its crafts at master level.

They get pretty much nothing else at master level.

[Heade]

I think we're getting a bit sidetracked in the details of this, discussing things at a level of intricacy that really need not be explained.

With edged weapons, a particularly refined manner of sharpening might be used to generate an edge that otherwise might not be able to be attained with a standard sharpening.
Blunt weapons can be weighted differently so that the transferrence of energy is focused at the impact point of the weapon.

Cloth Armors can use a tighter weave of cloth.
Leather and other biological armors like wood, bone, or chitin can be put through a hardening process that doesn't require "adding more material".

The point of this, is to give an ability to the heavy mercantile classes to separate them from other classes in some meaningful way, so that they have something to offer, rather than just being the worst combat and utility characters in the game that can make lots of stuff, but not any better than anyone else.

It could be done, quite simply, in a manner where armor is "reinforced/hardened" and weapons are "weighted/Sharpened" to improve performance.

Clothing could be modified to have a hidden pocket/sheath.

I'm open to ideas on jewelry and stonework.

But let's not get hung up in the details, or try to make this sort of ability over-complex. Keep it simple and functional, and it will be a welcome and useful addition to the game that doesn't require a whole lot of suspension of disbelief.

[Vex]

Vex, please refrain from flaming/combativeness. You were doing fine until that last paragraph. Argue the position, don't attack the person. Thanks.

Sorry, not sorry.

[Brokkr]

Sorry is irrelevant.  You must comply.

-The Borg

[senseofeven]

Okay, let's say recoding or adding more fun stuff to the game is difficult and tedious. What other kinds of alternatives that can make heavy merchant PCs feel more enjoyable to play?

Like, what else can they do rather than make everything in the world at master level? I feel that other than code-wise.. roleplay is only what you and others make of it for game enjoyment.

I'm just very curious, how precious are crafters in Armageddon? I'm asking for everyone's opinion, even the staffers. Perhaps from the perspective, there can be constructive direction and discussion for new ideas.

[only_plays_tribals]

As someone who has tried many times to get a custom item, only to have the crafters promising such things die in the middle of it. I'd say reasonably precious.

I've only had one PC who ever had custom things made for them after becoming very good friends with an indie legacy merchant. When I see those things in game it warms the cockles of my heart.

There's a sentimental, commemorative value to custom crafts. They pop up and suddenly all the things from a past life come rushing back. I'm saddened to hear the unhappiness from the crafting population. It's a difficult job, being a maker. Very demanding. Taking the time to lovingly hand write items for the creation of goods brings a richness to the game world though a direct application of creative writing that lives on long after those characters die and it's simply wonderful.

I hope whatever the result of the discussion turns out to be is satisfying for all those who enjoy playing crafting roles and creating these things.