Meat and Hunting Overhaul Oddballs

[gotdamnmiracle]

So it's been a while since I've hunted a dujat worm but from what I recall they, unlike their salty brethren, only drop one of each item including one lousy hunk of meat that most PCs can gobble up in two bites. I'm bringing this up in hopes that we can see something similar to the corpses of salt worms where they can be hacked up multiple times to get various slabs of meat and possibly more teeth/cuts of skin or shell.

Additionally, if they are smaller than salt worms to the point of not leaving behind a massive carcass, then they should at the least mimic carru where they leave behind multiple slabs of meat and various items that can be processed down further into more workable materials.

I'm posting this in hopes that other players can pinpoint other creatures that were missed during this overhaul or could use some touch ups.

[Delirium]

I think they are smaller than salt worms but should still leave behind a lot more meat/resources than they do.

Last I checked some critters in the more... shall we say, far-flung reaches of the Known... still needed a bit of an upgrade.

There's a specific large, very colorful bird that gives you ... one stiff white feather. 

[Hauwke]

I know the Dujat you get from the Silt Sea are bigger than a HG, so they should definately be giving more than 2 bites of meat.

[Synthesis]

Has any real hunter PC ever had not enough meat items?

By the time I hit 5 days played, usually I'm either leaving meat items on the ground or junking them, except for the rare few meat items that are valuable enough to be worth the time to collect.

[The Warshaper]

Has any real hunter PC ever had not enough meat items?

By the time I hit 5 days played, usually I'm either leaving meat items on the ground or junking them, except for the rare few meat items that are valuable enough to be worth the time to collect.

I feel like this fits the thread by also addressing the other side of the issue. Should certain animals, *cough*chalton and scrab*cough* give less meat?

[Delirium]

It wouldn't be so much an issue if you could actually sell all of your meat in this starving, resource-poor world.

Even if it was just a butcher NPC who didn't pay much but would accept all the meat you have, like that hide-buying NPC in Blackwing Outpost.

[Synthesis]

It wouldn't be so much an issue if you could actually sell all of your meat in this starving, resource-poor world.

Even if it was just a butcher NPC who didn't pay much but would accept all the meat you have, like that hide-buying NPC in Blackwing Outpost.

It's not an issue at all.  You can make a metric fuckton of 'sid selling food items in Allanak, as long as you aren't expecting to do it with basic shit.  Especially if you have the haggle skill (and know how to use it).

[Delirium]

Until you hit the 5 per limit.

I don't want to selectively sell the best cuts for lots of money. I want to desperately sell off all the meat I brought in that I don't think I can personally eat before it goes bad, for a pocketful of change that gets me enough to fill my waterskins and have a drink at the tavern.

I want to sell everything I have and scrape by, not be surrounded by mountains of perfectly tanned hides and juicy chalton steaks (that I can't sell).

[Lizzie]

...and that's not even five per person. That's five per NPC. If someone beat you to it, you'd be hauling that food around til it rotted, and nothing to show for it.

[Vex]

I tend to favor meat over raw product, like hide, or bone, or shell, because I cannot process a way for my pc, to leave perfectly good meat behind. But, it is an issue, that there is usually three or more hunters, with bags full of 5x steaks/raws of every type, waiting to get in and sell it all in bulk.

The idea, of there being some NPC butcher, who is only paying 5% of the meats value (with haggle script, like the mount butcher), would be very nice. It could even be a Templar, who is responsible for resolving faminine or shoring up supply issues, for various AoD outposts, so it's similar to the automated jobs, like mining and salting.

Templar, tasked with buying food, under pays local hunters, so he can pocket the rest. I'm sure, some blue screwed up his life hard enough, to get stuck with such a job.

The poor mount seller... nobody knows his pain, either.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I like this idea. You could probably see someone similar in Luirs trying to find cheap meat to feed the garrison troops. It might also reduce the indie hunter millionaire phenomenon a bit.

From a realistic standpoint you're gonna have a lot of meat from a hunt (ever kill a deer?) and some of it will probably go to waste if you can't carry it all. I imagine the same thing would happen on Zalanthas. After all, if you're a successful hunter then you're not hungry, so who gives a fuck? Just make sure you junk/bury it.

[Synthesis]

I tend to favor meat over raw product, like hide, or bone, or shell, because I cannot process a way for my pc, to leave perfectly good meat behind. But, it is an issue, that there is usually three or more hunters, with bags full of 5x steaks/raws of every type, waiting to get in and sell it all in bulk.

The idea, of there being some NPC butcher, who is only paying 5% of the meats value (with haggle script, like the mount butcher), would be very nice. It could even be a Templar, who is responsible for resolving faminine or shoring up supply issues, for various AoD outposts, so it's similar to the automated jobs, like mining and salting.

Templar, tasked with buying food, under pays local hunters, so he can pocket the rest. I'm sure, some blue screwed up his life hard enough, to get stuck with such a job.

The poor mount seller... nobody knows his pain, either.

You can't process how your character would leave perfectly good meat behind...

...but you can process being able to kill a gigantic worm by your lonesome.

Until you hit the 5 per limit.

I don't want to selectively sell the best cuts for lots of money. I want to desperately sell off all the meat I brought in that I don't think I can personally eat before it goes bad, for a pocketful of change that gets me enough to fill my waterskins and have a drink at the tavern.

I want to sell everything I have and scrape by, not be surrounded by mountains of perfectly tanned hides and juicy chalton steaks (that I can't sell).

Sell the raws to PCs who can't/won't hunt for themselves.  Or just stop hunting chalton if it's not profitable, maybe?

[Nao]

Has any real hunter PC ever had not enough meat items?

By the time I hit 5 days played, usually I'm either leaving meat items on the ground or junking them, except for the rare few meat items that are valuable enough to be worth the time to collect.

I feel like this fits the thread by also addressing the other side of the issue. Should certain animals, *cough*chalton and scrab*cough* give less meat?

Two pieces of meat aren't too much. I would rather see a fewer chalton and scrab out there.

[Armaddict]

Chalton as a whole require revamping.  They are too populous, too convenient, and as noted, give too much resource.

Scrab are fine in my opinion, because they are at least a serious threat to the early-career hunter; once you're not worried about them, you're a meat provider, and I think that's fine.

My feeling is that carrion birds should fulfill the role that chalton do now.  Sorry, wrecking the ecosystem this hard was not worth having craftable chalton leather.  Birds are not particularly dangerous but are hard to hunt, provide good meat, and resources that are pertinent.

Some sort of additional resource/meat should probably be added to spiders and drov beetles.

[Vex]

You can't process how your character would leave perfectly good meat behind...

...but you can process being able to kill a gigantic worm by your lonesome.

I can kill a gigantic worm on my own, because I'm awesome.

I can't compute leaving meat behind, because theme and documentation. A place to sell off excess meat for next to nothing, would be an excellent way to eliminate the awkwardness of, "I have so much food, and nobody wants it!". That is not the kind of problem, anyone should really have on Zalanthas.

If you're going to get smart, at least put some effort into it...

[Hauwke]

Realistically your dinky little spear shouldnt even hurt a gigantic salt worm, regardless of how awesome you are, Is perhaps something to consider. It would be even less effective than trying to kill another human with a toothpick.

[Synthesis]

Chalton as a whole require revamping.  They are too populous, too convenient, and as noted, give too much resource.

Scrab are fine in my opinion, because they are at least a serious threat to the early-career hunter; once you're not worried about them, you're a meat provider, and I think that's fine.

My feeling is that carrion birds should fulfill the role that chalton do now.  Sorry, wrecking the ecosystem this hard was not worth having craftable chalton leather.  Birds are not particularly dangerous but are hard to hunt, provide good meat, and resources that are pertinent.

Some sort of additional resource/meat should probably be added to spiders and drov beetles.

Nobody I've ever seen spam-hunts chalton past a few days played.  Everything they drop except the horn and meat can be bought in infinite quantities in Allanak already.  The only reason to hunt them is if you're too cheap to buy your own bones or hide...which is fine, if you traded haggle for skinning with your class/subclass selections.

The only reason to kill more than one or two is if you're stuck with an abysmal subclass jman skinning skill, and it takes you 10 chalton kills to get a single GOD DAMN HIDE.

Practically speaking, the reason there's chalton scraps always scattered about is because the scrabs kill them but don't consume the carcass, and then PCs ride by and skin the carcass without really needing anything it drops, just to practice skinning.

[Delirium]

Or the scrab kill all the chalton and some joker goes around skinning them all but leaving most everything behind.

I think the problem would be solved if chalton were capable of low-level hide so one scrab doesn't end up going on a murder rampage.

[Synthesis]

Or the scrab kill all the chalton and some joker goes around skinning them all but leaving most everything behind.

I think the problem would be solved if chalton were capable of low-level hide so one scrab doesn't end up going on a murder rampage.

Who cares if the scrabs go on a murder rampage?  How is that adversely impacting the game?

[Delirium]

Because it's jarring? Why would a scrab kill an entire pack of chalton and then not eat even one?

Same problem with the occasional rantarri rampage in Mantis Valley. It's a quirk of the code that leads to this, not realism.

[Synthesis]

Because it's jarring? Why would a scrab kill an entire pack of chalton and then not eat even one?

Same problem with the occasional rantarri rampage in Mantis Valley. It's a quirk of the code that leads to this, not realism.

There aren't any good simple solutions to the problem--assuming we even grant it the benefit of the doubt of being problematic.

1) Make chalton hide.  New problems introduced:  1) in order for them not to abjectly fail their hide checks, they'd need to have a pretty decent hide skill, which means the noobs who need to hunt chalton won't be able to find them and 2) a herd of chalton hiding is just as "jarring" as scrabs killing them but not eating them.

2) Make scrabs eat them.  New problem introduced:  the "consume corpse" code seems to be pretty generic, and doesn't seem to differentiate between corpse types.  This means every noob PC who dies to a scrab is going to get all of their gear zorched, and the TIME-HONORED bonus of corpse-looting disappears.

[Delirium]

Ok... make chalton timid so they flee. That should help.

[Heade]

Ok... make chalton timid so they flee. That should help.

What about characters who want to melee hunt without sneak? What would you propose they do, then?

I think synthesis is right, in that regard. Almost any "solution" to this problem, if it's recognized as a problem, end up creating actual playability problems instead.

[Delirium]

What about characters who want to melee hunt without sneak? What would you propose they do, then?

Um, hunt them the same way you hunt jozhal. There's a lot of options. Throwing weapons, tire them out, etc.

Or you can fight scrab. Or raptor. Or scorpions. Or vultures. Or.... etc.

It's not a huge issue. It's just a kind of jarring and slightly annoying one.

[Heade]

What about characters who want to melee hunt without sneak? What would you propose they do, then?

Um, hunt them the same way you hunt jozhal. There's a lot of options. Throwing weapons, tire them out, etc.

Or you can fight scrab. Or raptor. Or scorpions. Or vultures. Or.... etc.

It's not a huge issue. It's just a kind of jarring and slightly annoying one.

Sending a noob melee hunter to fight scrab? Or Raptors? Or Scorpions?

Seems like that wouldn't work very well. Chalton fill a niche as something that people can hunt relatively early on. Any changes you made to them to protect them from scrab would also protect them from said noob hunters.

[boog]

We really just "sid store" NPCs who'll buy whatever you give 'em for a sid.

Or we could use Nergal's old code with exchanging items for goods. Or buying items by exchanging goods. I know people don't tend to have favorable opinions of him, but that code could be scribbled on a few NPCs in game and it'd be awesome and help get rid of food, or excess 'other' stuff by actually making it a sort of economic unit itself, even if that unit is very small.

Hand over five bits of chalton meat, you get half a full waterskin. Shit like that.

[Miggy]

I think the meat guy just overpays for a scrab steak, chalton steak etc. I don't think it could hurt to cut the amount he pays for stuff by half. And give him more coins. Seems weird that I can only get ten coins for a hide, but forty five for a bit of cooked meat. Also, one idea I liked from here, even though Synthesis said it (snark), sell your raw meat to those new cooks that don't wanna hunt. And make it CHEAP, so they will buy a bunch of it. Should be able to find plenty that would love to practice their cooking skills, now that many more non-hunters besides merchants have cooking as a skill.

Related, should still be able to get a nice amount of coins for a master cooked meal. Is it possible to let NPC's give more coins for high quality cooked items? Seems like it should be, since bandage allows more healing if someone good at it patches you up.

[Miradus]

I hate everything proposed here.

Didn't we just have a major meat overhaul, known as the "Great Cock Eating of '17"?

Or was that only for northern animals?

[Medena]

Huh?

[Seeker]

Huh?

Skinnable penises.  It's a thing in the North.

[Vex]

Realistically...

Stop, right there. No.

[gotdamnmiracle]

The OP was meant to point out those creatures that were forgotten, so to speak, during the overhaul. Apparently, it's now a derail to talk about the mechanics of chalton and their price in Allanak. Honestly, I think chalton drop an alright amount of goods and if there's a lot of meat rotting in the sun the just junk it. It's courteous.

Can we name more than dujats and a bird without getting too OOC? It's kind of a disappointment that kryl, for all their variety and nastiness primarily only drop a chunk of uniform shell and some stinky meat. You'd think certain ones would drop swordlike objects, clubs, curare-barbs, and various glands (beyond the obvious).  Just a related thought.

[Veselka]

In general the ecosystem around Allanak is a little odd and static. If the DesertSim were able to handle recognizing what PCs are out, how many PCs are in the same room together, and randomly generate threats/threatening creatures, that might make for a more interesting hunt.

Meaning to say --

1 PC, but sneaking and hidden - Lower chance of a random encounter
1 PC, not sneaking and hidden, with a mount - Higher chance of a random encounter
2-3 PCs, not sneaking or hidden - Higher chance of a random encounter, slightly larger/dangerous creature looking for prey (Desert tarantula, pack of jakhal, etc.)
3+ PCs, not sneaking or hidden, multiple mounts - Lower chance of a random encounter with smaller creatures, middling chance of encounter with a very large/dangerous creature or a Gith Warband, depending on region.

Depending on region, it would include things like Gith, Gortok, Kryl, and Cilops.

In general, more variability with dangerous creatures and their frequency (and lack of predictability where they roam) would be a welcome addition to the Desert. Though this isn't Dark Sun (And we seem to try to distance ourselves from the better parts of it), the wastes of Athas are supposed to be incredibly dangerous and inhospitable. But the Desert in general feels very welcoming and confusingly easy most of the time. Poisonous snakes become more of an annoyance for anyone who isn't a fresh newb PC without cures, and the same goes for Scorpions. Actual danger would be great, and coded into the game without a need for Staff intervention each time, to make it consistent.

[Miradus]

Kryl do need some work. There's so little reason to actually hunt and pursue one of the most interesting creatures in the game.

I think the salt flats need some work too. I'd like to see more tregil-esque creatures out there. Salt hoppers (bunnies) or something that makes going out there worthwhile. You put in an awesome new tent camp out there ... let's make it useful for something.

And finally ... this is almost a de-rail ... apologies ...

But the Silt Sea is a huge waste and disappointment. Nothing there but death. I'd like to see "silt canoes" or little shell "coracles" for the same price as a starting beetle. Let YOUNG characters do some silt exploration instead of putting it in the hands of "end game" characters who manage to save up thousands and then don't want to take any risk. Remove the silt horrors ... they add so little. Save them up for special RPT stuff. Instead, put some smaller, less murderous creatures out there that people can hunt and are valuable.

I know this would all be a big effort, but you could request for volunteers like you did with the meat overhaul.

[Synthesis]

In general the ecosystem around Allanak is a little odd and static. If the DesertSim were able to handle recognizing what PCs are out, how many PCs are in the same room together, and randomly generate threats/threatening creatures, that might make for a more interesting hunt.

Meaning to say --

1 PC, but sneaking and hidden - Lower chance of a random encounter
1 PC, not sneaking and hidden, with a mount - Higher chance of a random encounter
2-3 PCs, not sneaking or hidden - Higher chance of a random encounter, slightly larger/dangerous creature looking for prey (Desert tarantula, pack of jakhal, etc.)
3+ PCs, not sneaking or hidden, multiple mounts - Lower chance of a random encounter with smaller creatures, middling chance of encounter with a very large/dangerous creature or a Gith Warband, depending on region.

Depending on region, it would include things like Gith, Gortok, Kryl, and Cilops.

In general, more variability with dangerous creatures and their frequency (and lack of predictability where they roam) would be a welcome addition to the Desert. Though this isn't Dark Sun (And we seem to try to distance ourselves from the better parts of it), the wastes of Athas are supposed to be incredibly dangerous and inhospitable. But the Desert in general feels very welcoming and confusingly easy most of the time. Poisonous snakes become more of an annoyance for anyone who isn't a fresh newb PC without cures, and the same goes for Scorpions. Actual danger would be great, and coded into the game without a need for Staff intervention each time, to make it consistent.

Lack of predictability of roaming dangerous beasts absolutely would not be a welcome addition.  It's already stupid easy to die, even when you have virtually every part of the game world committed to memory.  If you think it feels safe, you either are blissfully unaware or you aren't actually taking risks.

[Veselka]

In general the ecosystem around Allanak is a little odd and static. If the DesertSim were able to handle recognizing what PCs are out, how many PCs are in the same room together, and randomly generate threats/threatening creatures, that might make for a more interesting hunt.

Meaning to say --

1 PC, but sneaking and hidden - Lower chance of a random encounter
1 PC, not sneaking and hidden, with a mount - Higher chance of a random encounter
2-3 PCs, not sneaking or hidden - Higher chance of a random encounter, slightly larger/dangerous creature looking for prey (Desert tarantula, pack of jakhal, etc.)
3+ PCs, not sneaking or hidden, multiple mounts - Lower chance of a random encounter with smaller creatures, middling chance of encounter with a very large/dangerous creature or a Gith Warband, depending on region.

Depending on region, it would include things like Gith, Gortok, Kryl, and Cilops.

In general, more variability with dangerous creatures and their frequency (and lack of predictability where they roam) would be a welcome addition to the Desert. Though this isn't Dark Sun (And we seem to try to distance ourselves from the better parts of it), the wastes of Athas are supposed to be incredibly dangerous and inhospitable. But the Desert in general feels very welcoming and confusingly easy most of the time. Poisonous snakes become more of an annoyance for anyone who isn't a fresh newb PC without cures, and the same goes for Scorpions. Actual danger would be great, and coded into the game without a need for Staff intervention each time, to make it consistent.

Lack of predictability of roaming dangerous beasts absolutely would not be a welcome addition.

Out of self preservation? Or do you think it would be less fun to not know when/if your lonesome ranger is going to be ambushed?

[Synthesis]

It's basic game design.

If I wanted to randomly die over and over again because RNGesus decided to fuck me, I'd play ADOM or Cataclysm DDA.

Armageddon is not a roguelike.

[Heade]

Or do you think it would be less fun to not know when/if your lonesome ranger is going to be ambushed?

If, by "be ambushed", you mean have something randomly spawn right on top of you that no amount of careful scouting, skill, or precaution could have possibly prevented, then yes, I'm with Synthesis. That is not at all fun for characters that we've put hundreds and hundreds of hours into developing the story of.

Synthesis is already trying to kill me. Let him do it. (not really, but maybe) 

[Veselka]

If I wanted to have fun, I would (and do) play other games than ArmageddonMUD when I'm pursuing wilderness type exploration and fun encounters, and a narrative/plot that has a beginning middle and end.

Basic Game Design also includes things like overarching narrative, random loot/treasure, random encounters, and basic advancement goals that are achievable within hours of play and not many many days of play. ArmageddonMUD doesn't have these things for the most part, and we play despite it.

D&D and pretty much any PnP has a 'random encounter' function built into it -- But somehow that's a rogue like? I don't exactly follow, but I suppose I see what you are saying. A certain amount of predictability, particularly from people who are used to Armageddon being what it was/is, is more desirable than unpredictability, likely where permadeath is concerned as well. You don't want to randomly die to a coded encounter that's unavoidable.

[Armaddict]

Eh.  Disagree.

There being a chance of more-than-usual danger in normally safe places is actually pretty integral to -this- game's design.  This ain't no MMO where we're gradually building everyone up to level whatever so that they can run instances and raids.  In -those- games, putting a level 20 in the level 10 area wouldn't make sense (and they still do it anyway).

In -this- game, there is supposed to be risk of death even if you're playing it safe.  The whole reason we actually -complain- about people not taking risks is because of this.  It lowers excitement when there is a literal formula for upward progression with minimal chance of the world actually being dangerous.  One could argue that this is what led to this entitlement of survivability that gets other players and their actions so much negative attention for being the only true source of danger to those who are playing it safe.

It's a dangerous world.  Let it be dangerous, instead of making it depend on player mistakes or newbieness.

No, not a proponent for 'A gith has arrived from somewhere nearby', but I -am- a proponent for 'This gith has wandered closer to the city than usual in search of prey.'  It makes 0 sense for the latter to almost never happen.

[Veselka]

Or do you think it would be less fun to not know when/if your lonesome ranger is going to be ambushed?

If, by "be ambushed", you mean have something randomly spawn right on top of you that no amount of careful scouting, skill, or precaution could have possibly prevented, then yes, I'm with Synthesis. That is not at all fun for characters that we've put hundreds and hundreds of hours into developing the story of.

Synthesis is already trying to kill me. Let him do it. (not really, but maybe) 

I was thinking not exactly 'right on top of you' but a couple rooms away, something to be engaged or not. Perhaps some right on top of you, but nothing that would immediately kill you. We already have poisonous snakes appear out of thin air, and Gith as well.

[Synthesis]

I think you all missed my edit where I said "it's already stupid easy to die."

It's just fine the way it is.  It doesn't need to be any more or less dangerous.

[Armaddict]

I'm not in support of random 'spawns' of any sort.

I'm in support of SimDesert no longer restricting the wandering of things that are more dangerous than normal.

[Synthesis]

I'm not in support of random 'spawns' of any sort.

I'm in support of SimDesert no longer restricting the wandering of things that are more dangerous than normal.

The wandering things still wander, so....

[Armaddict]

I'm not in support of random 'spawns' of any sort.

I'm in support of SimDesert no longer restricting the wandering of things that are more dangerous than normal.

The wandering things still wander, so....

They can be led, but cannot wander, according to the description of SimDesert when it came out.

[Synthesis]

I'm not in support of random 'spawns' of any sort.

I'm in support of SimDesert no longer restricting the wandering of things that are more dangerous than normal.

The wandering things still wander, so....

They can be led, but cannot wander, according to the description of SimDesert when it came out.

Alrighty.  You go ahead and go AFK in a certain few spots and see how that works out for you, bro.

[Miradus]

Unexpected spider is ... unexpected.

I've been playing "city folk" for awhile now and my recent transition back to wilderness characters has been problematic. I'm leaving my newb corpses everywhere while I relearn.

The environment is harsh enough to kill you dead in the early stages (less than 24 hours played) if you're unwary.

[Synthesis]

Unexpected spider is ... unexpected.

I've been playing "city folk" for awhile now and my recent transition back to wilderness characters has been problematic. I'm leaving my newb corpses everywhere while I relearn.

The environment is harsh enough to kill you dead in the early stages (less than 24 hours played) if you're unwary.

It's harsh enough to kill you way, way past 24 hours, especially if you're not a top-tier combat class.

[Miradus]

So true.

[Hauwke]

NPCs can even kill a PC waaaaay past that point. No matter how hogh your stats or skills, a big enough clusterfuck can still kill a guy.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I am ambivalent about the random creature spawning, just because I think that'd be super hard to implement.

That said, I do think there should be a sort of random spawning! I remember suggesting that some (or most) stationary plants should be done away with and by region spawn like the salt patches do in the salt flats. Additionally you could also have the possibility of spawning some of the more common plants maybe? By using forage in a way similar to how spice patches can be spawned outside of redstorm.

After a reset they disappear again or are reshuffled to a completely different spot. We already have the code to make this happen. It'd just be a matter of jury rigging it a bit. Instead of patch of purplish salt it's a patch of kalan bushes with the possibility to spawn a kalan husk, a twig, and even a kalan or two!

That topic probably deserves its own thread though.

[roughneck]

I liked the Wave Dunes better pre-chalton population boom.

The dunes should be desolate. The chalton should be somehwere with grass and water.

People in the desert should have to hunt small rodents, lizards, snakes and birds... or giant insects.

The red desert feels a little more like a desert in this regard, if you ask me. I avoid the western wave dunes totally now if I can... well, unless I'm hunting chalton hunters

[gotdamnmiracle]

Saw the new mainpage update. Glad to see you guys are still working on this. I think it goes a long way towards making the gameworld a lot more interesting considering how much of it is either monster hunting or depends on monster hunting. Very excited to see what has changed.