Estranged Veterans' Perspective

[Dar]

tl;dr - Power isn't always about power, and I feel very ... perturbed that my intention of gameplay is being boiled down into something easy to attack. I don't play anymore, because this ISN'T the kind of game I want to play. I've already admitted that. You don't need to tell me that I "played it wrong" or anything. That is, frankly, very rude.

We all have opinions, Riev. We're exchanging them here. None of the staff mentioned their point of view here. That might've been read as doctrine. Everyone else? Myself included, is expression their opinion. Expression how they see it benefitting to the game, damaging, inconsequential, or whatever else.  Taking offense to it is silly.

[Bebop]

Well. I mean. If you're playing this game to win it, you're gonna have a bad time.

Unless by "winning" you mean "adding interest, depth and complexity to the ongoing narrative", in which case, good job!

You have to accept that this isn't a game where you're playing the hero who wins. You're the supporting cast. Yes, even your popular leader who all the players adore. What more do you need? You're creating fun and intrigue for lots of people right where you are. What are you really going to get if you're promoted another rank, beyond OOC bragging rights?

If players are just supporting staff..
And staff are just supporting players..

Nobody does anything.  No change happens.

This was one of the reasons I stopped playing in 2010.

Exactly, and now it's to the point Templars can't even make decisions about soldiers without staff intervention.  Staff are playing all of the real leadership roles.  And also, asking why do people want to get power in game?  Because some of the roles that's literally built in.  You're in a land where people starve and die with ease.  Obtaining power means obtaining security, resources, food, water and keeping your life.  Roles like greedy merchants and nobility - the strive towards power is a BUILT IN motivator.  It's really, really vapid to be like hey... you're gonna connive for power but it's all pretend because you could reach the age of fifty and you'll still be a junior noble lulz.

What's also not fun is that in the current system the staff hold ALL of the truly powerful characters.  So basically you could play a character for years.  Real life YEARS you could contribute your life to this game - for hours and hours that you'll never get back of your real life towards a single character.  And ultimately you could be doing a good job, creating depth, plots etc.  And your character still won't have obtained trust to grow in title.  They will effectively still be beholden to an NPC that could be played by various staff over the time you're keeping one character alive. 

There's no where to go.  This isn't a second virtual life to splash around in like a puddle, it's a story telling game that should have a clear since of reward, depth of story and trust it's players to lead.  I would much rather follow trusted PC leaders than always refer to staff - which change, and usually don't have the depth of knowledge an immersed, consistently playing PC would.

What's more is you're saying people are looking through rose colored glasses in regards to PC leaders that achieved this status like Lieutenant Raul etc.  That's kind of presumptuous because you're assuming all of our experiences were your own which they were not.

You can create depth of story and still want power and to obtain ascension in the game without being under the thumb of the imms.  If you look at my past three characters you will see that I used about 10% of my skills.  I am not here to "win" Armageddon.  But if I make impactful good decisions as a leader over real life months and years I want to go about the natural progression in rank that would make sense for my character instead of just "make-believing" for real life years I'm striving to achieve rank that would be fitting obtain but never will be because there's been an OOC decision to cut players off from that.  I'm here to RP but that doesn't mean I want to RP the same social status for RL years with my efforts amounting to nothing but the same cyclic role and stature while I make believe I'll ever actually gain rank within a leadership role.

[Riev]

As a mild aside:

I think we're all in this grey area between a few very key points

This is a game.
This is a shared storytelling adventure.
This is a very intensive roleplaying experience.
The roleplay standard has been set at "low-fantasy" and a very low ceiling for players. No heroes. No dragons.

I think we often forget the first point, because the other three are SO damned attractive. An intensive roleplaying experience with other storytellers trying to weave together something beautiful and tragic. It is also a game, where there should be strategy, sense of achievement, progression, something that passes the time and doesn't feel like a vocation. Arm should be an avocation that we, as players, can CHOOSE to put more effort in, to achieve more things.

[Is Friday]

It would be cool if when you were promoted beyond the glass ceiling you were allowed to participate in future RPTs or events as that PC on a limited basis. Kind of like gladiators but different. More of a cameo role.

Example:
I play a Byn Sarge until Lieutenant. I play around with the LT role for a bit and then one day decide to "soft store". I can return to this role for HYUGE battle RPTs, training the Sergeant PCs from time to time, promotion RPTs, and other big Allanaki events.

Example 2:
I play a Borsail noble who nobles so hard that they get promoted. I decide to soft store and leave open the option of having staff bring me in for future events. Staff invite me to play my PC giving orders from higher about X or Y plot. Staff later invite me to play my PC attending a huge party RPT or Senate RPT.

I know it might be difficult to balance the "Keep it IC" rules, but if you're playing a leader for a long time and you're trusted by staff to be responsible... well...? Why not let us play this PC again 2-3x a year as a cameo to reflect how fucking cool my PC is, now. That'd be a sweet reward and a positive improvement for the game.

I feel like it would solve issues and motivate people to play those sort of PCs or help those PCs reach great heights.

[Heade]

It would be cool if when you were promoted beyond the glass ceiling you were allowed to participate in future RPTs or events as that PC on a limited basis. Kind of like gladiators but different. More of a cameo role.

Example:
I play a Byn Sarge until Lieutenant. I play around with the LT role for a bit and then one day decide to "soft store". I can return to this role for HYUGE battle RPTs, training the Sergeant PCs from time to time, promotion RPTs, and other big Allanaki events.

Example 2:
I play a Borsail noble who nobles so hard that they get promoted. I decide to soft store and leave open the option of having staff bring me in for future events. Staff invite me to play my PC giving orders from higher about X or Y plot. Staff later invite me to play my PC attending a huge party RPT or Senate RPT.

I know it might be difficult to balance the "Keep it IC" rules, but if you're playing a leader for a long time and you're trusted by staff to be responsible... well...? Why not let us play this PC again 2-3x a year as a cameo to reflect how fucking cool my PC is, now. That'd be a sweet reward and a positive improvement for the game.

I feel like it would solve issues and motivate people to play those sort of PCs or help those PCs reach great heights.

I feel like if they did this, there'd have to be some sort of OOC rule keeping them from being involved in plots. Aside from plot information you could get on your "main" PC, they'd also be nigh untouchable IC whereas someone playing them regularly might have weaknesses in their schedule that could be exploited. It's hard to fuck over a PC in that type of position anyhow. By making them a secondary character that only shows up for random RPTs, that makes it almost impossible.

[Delirium]

I feel like y'all are forgetting that there is lateral promotion... extra ranks, extra titles, not to mention the clout that comes from being long-lived and known to be someone who sticks to their role through thick and thin. You're acting like it's "Lt. Rank/Senior noble/Red Robe status or else" but honestly there is a ton of in between that you can reach. Could it be improved? Maybe. Does it exist? Yes.

[Heade]

I feel like y'all are forgetting that there is lateral promotion... extra ranks, extra titles, not to mention the clout that comes from being long-lived and known to be someone who sticks to their role through thick and thin. You're acting like it's "Lt. Rank/Senior noble/Red Robe status or else" but honestly there is a ton of in between that you can reach. Could it be improved? Maybe. Does it exist? Yes.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that no longer be a thing. I would like the path to these lofty levels to be a long one, and come with several of those lateral promotions, ranks, titles, boons, etc before promotion to that higher rank is considered. And then, I'd like it to come with the caveat I expressed earlier, that red robes wouldn't regularly interact with anyone of lower social standing than a noble or templar's aide.

There is no reason we can't have -both- types of promotions available, both lateral and honorary, and vertical.

[Dar]

What's also not fun is that in the current system the staff hold ALL of the truly powerful characters.  So basically you could play a character for years.  Real life YEARS you could contribute your life to this game - for hours and hours that you'll never get back of your real life towards a single character.  And ultimately you could be doing a good job, creating depth, plots etc.  And your character still won't have obtained trust to grow in title.  They will effectively still be beholden to an NPC that could be played by various staff over the time you're keeping one character alive. 

It begins to seem to me that the main reason to want to achieve a higher title is to stop being under staff control. You do realize this will never happen, right? That's like a player in a tabletop RPG complaining how come the DM has the right to spawn goblins during an encounter.  A higher titled NPC coming over to your lower titled noble is basically a tool of communication between your character/player and the virtual world/staff.

Even if you do achieve a rank of whatever, there will always be a different NPC to have utter control over you. Has to be.

[Bebop]

What's also not fun is that in the current system the staff hold ALL of the truly powerful characters.  So basically you could play a character for years.  Real life YEARS you could contribute your life to this game - for hours and hours that you'll never get back of your real life towards a single character.  And ultimately you could be doing a good job, creating depth, plots etc.  And your character still won't have obtained trust to grow in title.  They will effectively still be beholden to an NPC that could be played by various staff over the time you're keeping one character alive. 

It begins to seem to me that the main reason to want to achieve a higher title is to stop being under staff control. You do realize this will never happen, right? That's like a player in a tabletop RPG complaining how come the DM has the right to spawn goblins during an encounter.  A higher titled NPC coming over to your lower titled noble is basically a tool of communication between your character/player and the virtual world/staff.

Even if you do achieve a rank of whatever, there will always be a different NPC to have utter control over you. Has to be.

No if we're sticking to the DnD analogy its like saying that characters that overtime can obtain earth shattering powers are told their characters can no longer level up because the DM doesn't want to have to create stories around them being so powerful.  In DnD characters eventually can practically world bend.

Also, it can "seem to you" however you like but I've stated pretty clearly that I don't like the change made to the original state of the game - where characters could ascend to Liet., Red Robes and senior nobles.  The game has been that way before.  No one is suggesting black robes.  The game has worked that way before and it can work again.  Was it rare people reached these ranks?  Extremely.  But it was possible.

[Bebop]

I feel like y'all are forgetting that there is lateral promotion... extra ranks, extra titles, not to mention the clout that comes from being long-lived and known to be someone who sticks to their role through thick and thin. You're acting like it's "Lt. Rank/Senior noble/Red Robe status or else" but honestly there is a ton of in between that you can reach. Could it be improved? Maybe. Does it exist? Yes.

See, I have a really, really big problem with this.  Is it okay to some extent?  Yes.  It's super OOC though to just treat someone better because they've had their characters a few years.  If you're a Byn sarge I'm going to treat you like a roughneck that means little, I'm not treating you like a Lieutenant because you've been alive a few RL years.  If you're the aide of a Templar that's been around awhile, I'm not treating you like the aide of a Red Robe.  If you're a junior noble, I'm not treating you like a senior until you have the rank to back it up.

And that's how it should be.  Zalanthas, Allanak is a feudal society and rank and title should be everything.  This isn't a democracy.  There should be constant class warfare and rank should be reflective of a PCs achievements.  To act like it shouldn't be is a big reason I feel every long lived PC - be they commoner, merc, or rinther - acts like they're untouchable.  This is an additional problem, not a solution and it's not something staff should be encouraging.

However, be they commoner or noble people should have the opportunity to get ranks, or even be demoted and disgraced - based on their achievements.

[Derain]

Everything being posted by someone in this thread feels like someone feeling entitled and crying about things that aren't going their way.

[Delirium]

I completely agree with not treating characters differently just because they've been non-virtual for a while (though it will absolutely happen whether or not it should, despite all attempts to discourage that behavior). However, I was talking more of your character being successful in their current role for a long time, i.e. a Sergeant that's been leading for 5 IG years, a Templar that's been Templaring for several RL years.

If they make mistakes, they should absolutely suffer for them, but they still garner respect for having been successful/active in their position. As you say Zalanthas has constant class warfare and struggle and someone who has survived that for some time does merit respect for it.

You aren't going to have a fresh-promoted Sergeant show up and be on the same level as a grizzled veteran Sergeant of 8 years in leadership. Nor should you. Yes, the fresh-promoted Sergeant should be accorded the basic respect for their rank, but anything beyond that they have to earn.

[Dar]

Now. I dont know if it is being designed to be so, but here's a question. What if you do, Bebop? What if you 'do' treat them differently.

Not just due to hours played. But due to honors achieved. In Feudal society, a king couldnt proclaim someone a baron, unless there was a barony to grant them. What happened instead, were honorific with certain responsibilities. Master of Wine. Master of Chambers. Master of Ceremonies. The honor of removal of the second shoe during the King's undress. The honor of approaching the King without bowing. And so on.

Those honorifics did not come with significant changes in one's abilities. There were 'some' abilities. Some lordling who designed who sat where during feasts, could seat friends closer to the king and his enemies further away. Or be bribed to situate them in some vicinity to make whatever proclamations possible and impossible.

Having said that, they did carry weight. That is why sometimes it was so important to mention every title. Something that tended to end up in a long monologue, where everyone were ready to cut their own ears off. But it did not detract from the people's importance, because these honorifics were supposedly potentially earned through some whatever significant deeds.


Because otherwise. If none of these things mattered and you only cared whether or not someone is a baron, or not. Then suddenly, the only title worthy of achievement was barony, and if that act broke the equilibrium and dynamic of the game, then a lot of people want to achieve something at the price of many other's enjoyment of the game, or potentials of clunky storytelling.

[Delirium]

Also, Armageddon isn't a D&D game. It is more like a LARP.

You have to consider the fun of 100's of characters, not the 5 around your kitchen table.

[Bebop]

I'll reply more later, but I just want to point out I'm not saying anything much different than Riev and Mansa, the only difference is I am still playing after a 5 year hiatus.  I'm giving opinions as someone who has come back to a lot of changes.  I can see why the left and the game is less of a place for the veterans we're losing and have lost because those two, amongst others, were good players that brought a lot to the game.

[Riev]

Also, Armageddon isn't a D&D game. It is more like a LARP.

You have to consider the fun of 100's of characters, not the 5 around your kitchen table.

This is remarkably accurate for the state of the game, and its intention. It is also, as I've stated before, why I cannot play anymore. I want it to be more like a D&D game, but its a long-form LARP beholden to a dozen Game Masters who all need to communicate every thing you do that could change the landscape.

Is it bad? No. It works for those of you still playing.

As a Veteran, I remember where there have been times that WITH STAFF TRUST/KARMA, people could attain these higher levels of power to show that it CAN happen in Zalanthas. People CAN become Red Robes. You CAN become a Lieutenant. You CAN do these things often only represented by the Virtual World.

I think the big issue at hand is that, ICly there are a ton of things that are 'possible', but Staff get to decide how possible it is FOR YOU. A lot of timelines require up to a real life year of consistent play before you are taken seriously. This is not new. I remember a friend accomplishing a lot in three months of play, but was told by staff that "You have only been around a few months. You need to dedicate more time before <x> can be considered." So, don't think the time-sink is new. Its just being enforced more, now, with laid out instructions. I still hate it.

[Cind]

Introduce commoner and aide ranks.

How about this: to give commoners something to strive for, citizens of the city (and Luir's perhaps?) should be able to optionally get a token or a tattoo that signifies their rank. Maybe there's three, or five, with the last rank being incredibly hard to achieve. You hardly ever see a pc with the highest rank, which basically makes them a shoe-in for employment, but you've seen a couple with the second-highest rank in the last year. Most people would be at the bottom one, and persons who have completed one task of merit to the city or a House (including merchant Houses) would usually be awarded the second-lowest rank, and the tiny dot tattoo on their hand or wrist that signifies this (on second thought, tokens could be stolen.) You couldn't get to the middle rank by helping a merchant House unless you were employed a long time; thus, loyal and long-employed members of the merchant houses would be known to be second or middle rank.

To get the upper two ranks you'd really have to be useful and of merit to the city itself.

Aide ranks: Give aides something to strive for other than an inevitable death by assassin. This would be a badge of their trustworthiness and excellence in their position, in addition to whatever title they actually hold in their noble House. Perhaps the highest rank could only be earned by either a great teacher of the Atrium who have been around for years or an aide who made her former noble senior rank; something concrete and with few options in order to attain, is what I think would fit the highest aide rank.

Just saying... part of what I mean by these is that adding some defined barriers for people to overcome to get rank might be a good idea.

And no, these ranks wouldn't matter a wit to the people that matter, but nobles would love having an aide with rank, and merchant houses would consider your commoner dots during an interview. I think anyone but the Byn would ask, and its something new to rp about, add to stories, and lament as proven-loyal commoners die needlessly, and laugh as criminals who have lost rank die.

I was actually disappointed when I read that Tuluk has a caste system and then got in-game and played there, because their caste system -is exactly the same as Allanak's.- They just have these elaborate star tattoos to mark them.

[Brokkr]

The Noble houses currently open have aides that roughly correspond to:

Aide
Senior Aide
Advisor

Where the first two are to a particular noble, and the last one more to the House.  The ranks are obtainable, with time, effort and noble support.

[najdorf]

Also, Armageddon isn't a D&D game. It is more like a LARP.

You have to consider the fun of 100's of characters, not the 5 around your kitchen table.

This is remarkably accurate for the state of the game, and its intention. It is also, as I've stated before, why I cannot play anymore. I want it to be more like a D&D game, but its a long-form LARP beholden to a dozen Game Masters who all need to communicate every thing you do that could change the landscape.

Is it bad? No. It works for those of you still playing.

As a Veteran, I remember where there have been times that WITH STAFF TRUST/KARMA, people could attain these higher levels of power to show that it CAN happen in Zalanthas. People CAN become Red Robes. You CAN become a Lieutenant. You CAN do these things often only represented by the Virtual World.

I think the big issue at hand is that, ICly there are a ton of things that are 'possible', but Staff get to decide how possible it is FOR YOU. A lot of timelines require up to a real life year of consistent play before you are taken seriously. This is not new. I remember a friend accomplishing a lot in three months of play, but was told by staff that "You have only been around a few months. You need to dedicate more time before <x> can be considered." So, don't think the time-sink is new. Its just being enforced more, now, with laid out instructions. I still hate it.

This describes most of my feelings about the game. Unfortunately, being an off-peak player makes things worse. The game auto forces you to play isolated roles. For a long time, I happily played less social roles that limited my interaction with the staff. The moment I broke my code, I was reminded the painful process of waiting for staff approval, and many days of unresolved requests, and ignorance (perhaps innocent) from the staff (with almost 0 interaction with the character) for a 10+ days played character. However, all of this is in the game's rules. Most of the role requirements by staff clearly state the need to be actively playing on peak.

Hopefully, the game will one day come to a point where staff will have to hand the power to a player-driven community and step aside, with a well thought democratic protocol to ensure the main theme and spirit of Zalanthas is preserved.

[Heade]

Hopefully, the game will one day come to a point where staff will have to hand the power to a player-driven community and step aside, with a well thought democratic protocol to ensure the main theme and spirit of Zalanthas is preserved.

I think this is both a little unfair to staff, and a bit overdramatic.

First, they will never have to hand over power. This is a privately funded game that doesn't even take donations from players. There is literally nothing players could do to force their hand in some way.

Second, this is a collaberative effort, and IS player-driven. As far as I know, all people on staff are players. It should be remembered that staff are volunteers and choose how to spend their time on projects. And while I'm sure there are plenty of times I've wished something would be done about X, and that didn't align with anyone on staff's personal goals for what to do with their time, I think the current staff is the most welcoming of player input and criticism of any staff in the history of armageddon.

And last, democracy doesn't always end up with the best results. Besides being inefficient and slow, sometimes the masses think they know what they'd like, till they get it, and they don't. Sometimes it's better to be ruled by a benevolent dictator. Though, I don't think that's the case, here. I think there is often a more democratic process that occurs between staff behind the scenes, and that process is probably responsible for a good deal of the delays that we as players have to deal with in having our requests resolved.

[Akaramu]

Introduce commoner and aide ranks.

How about this: to give commoners something to strive for, citizens of the city (and Luir's perhaps?) should be able to optionally get a token or a tattoo that signifies their rank. Maybe there's three, or five, with the last rank being incredibly hard to achieve.

Wasn't this basically a Tuluk thing? 

[Tuannon]

The issue with high ranks for commoners is they often forget their place or the players don't know how to maintain networks of plots that aren't related to doing everything in your power to kill x, y or z.

[Cind]

Introduce commoner and aide ranks.

How about this: to give commoners something to strive for, citizens of the city (and Luir's perhaps?) should be able to optionally get a token or a tattoo that signifies their rank. Maybe there's three, or five, with the last rank being incredibly hard to achieve.

Wasn't this basically a Tuluk thing? 

Sorry---- I thought that tokens could have maybe worked, but you could steal them.

Or not--- you could have it so that most people are the bottom commoner tier, requiring no dots. And that people who do get rank, are recorded, much like the people who joined the Levies were recorded, with a tattoo and a couple of lines in a scribe's records.

I distinctly remember being inspected by a Lirathan a few weeks after joining the Levies, and asking her, quite literally but you know, subtly and politely, if I were being inspected, and I was a ruk unmanifested who didn't know it, and she said, yep, you're the first one we're checking out, and I'm like, okay cool.

[Cind]

Could you imagine how ironic and tooth-gnashing this would be if implemented by Tektolnes himself, or a black robe? People would in their minds feel like a kicked dog for becoming like the Tulukis, but wouldn't have the slightest say in the matter.

[Derain]

I'm closer and closer to leaving the game and it's mostly the meta-bullshit and hand holding for certain characters I keep seeing. Also how lame it's gotten allowing clear abuse of the in game boards and the posts being left and others getting deleted because they "violate" the in game board rules. There is other things that have pissed me off as well but I can't go into them because they are too IC and recent but man.. it makes it hard to keep loving this game.