PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It

[ShaLeah]

I'm pro PK as fuck.  It's my go to when someone's crossed my character. All my characters have one thing in common, pkilling someone has to be earned.  Rarely do I level up a character to be a cold hearted murderer but all my characters end up friends with someone who can make it happen OR know someone who can lead them to whoever can make it happen for them.  Being pkilled is the ultimate compliment for me.

I'm with Vox and Potaje on this.  Murder is one third of our mission statement and the amount of people who don't get that, or that are trying to change it, is disturbing to me. It's also one of the things that seem to occur less than they use to.  I'd be interested in seeing ACTUAL numbers from the switch to roleplay required until today.

[Inky]

Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

[Vex]

There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...

[Eyeball]

There has to be a building and achievement side to the game, otherwise why not just play Fortnite. You can't have a building and achievement side if things are too slanted toward destruction and who gets to screw who over.

[evilcabbage]

i don't know where the fallacy that pk requires paperwork came from, but unless you're a sponsored role and you're already writing in reports, filing reports for a pk is not and has not ever been a requirement. it's NICE and appreciated when you do, but you do not have to.

[Vox]

+1 Vex and ShaLeah

[ShaLeah]

Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

It IS though. It HAS been for God knows how long.

http://armageddonmud.org/intro/what_you_know.php

https://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?rules


You may not like it, but murder, corruption and betrayal are the NORM on Zalanthas.

+1 Vex and ShaLeah

[Strongheart]

There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...

I disagree with that almost entirely. You are an experienced player, you know just how to play safely and survive. Not all do, and I can almost guarantee that you do not put yourself into ultimately fatal positions in the game world itself. Explore the places that are known for their dangers and such (the Grey Forest, Mantis Valley, etc.). In NO way is this game easy and it isn't PvP alone that is making players leave but I do believe it is a part of it when it is a PK without any quality or reason for it. If you genuinely want to play a game where PvP is the main focus? I do not suggest Armageddon. PK is a small part of it in a sandbox such as this, and it has its dangers and intrigue but I will say that ultimately PK should be an option out of many. I find anyone who goes about with the idea of PK in mind (hiring assassins or twinking themselves to that level) is highly unoriginal and far from entertaining.

MURDER is one word in that tagline. It is not the goal nor should it be. Your character's priorities come first and if that means PK? Then power to them!

[Strongheart]

Do not mean to target you Vex or you ShaLeah! But I think you can agree that Armageddon is about the story, what you and others add to that story, and what experiences that story provides to we as players or staff or whatever the heck you may be.

[Inky]

Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

It IS though. It HAS been for God knows how long.

http://armageddonmud.org/intro/what_you_know.php

https://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?rules


You may not like it, but murder, corruption and betrayal are the NORM on Zalanthas.

No it isn't. Because barely anyone plays it except to get their way.

No it isn't. Because I can play a character that is/does none of those things and get karma for it.

It's just a dumb marketing tool to bring in the thirteen year old edgelords. It has little to no bearing on actually what happens in the game. And I suspect the reason some players can't accept that is because they're attached to the nostalgia.

There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...

If I was thirteen years old, that would sound really cool.

[Inky]

There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...

I disagree with that almost entirely. You are an experienced player, you know just how to play safely and survive. Not all do, and I can almost guarantee that you do not put yourself into ultimately fatal positions in the game world itself. Explore the places that are known for their dangers and such (the Grey Forest, Mantis Valley, etc.). In NO way is this game easy and it isn't PvP alone that is making players leave but I do believe it is a part of it when it is a PK without any quality or reason for it. If you genuinely want to play a game where PvP is the main focus? I do not suggest Armageddon. PK is a small part of it in a sandbox such as this, and it has its dangers and intrigue but I will say that ultimately PK should be an option out of many. I find anyone who goes about with the idea of PK in mind (hiring assassins or twinking themselves to that level) is highly unoriginal and far from entertaining.

MURDER is one word in that tagline. It is not the goal nor should it be. Your character's priorities come first and if that means PK? Then power to them!

The real problem just goes back to what Nanimo said. Player killing doesn't even feel like conflict. It's just too mechanical. Everybody is a happy-smiley shit-eater until someone goes against the grain and then suddenly the bag of tricks with all the ez pk tools come out. Rarely are players willing to accept any risk with their player killing

I'd love to see some actual goddamn fucking conflict. But it's usually just one or a handful of players picking off the easy targets (the players that are taking risks and are willing to play weak characters, or didn't know about whiran summon lol)

Then when you consider the above after watching some bullshit go down yet again, you come to conclusion that player vs player conflict in this game is kind of always a shit show.

[Cind]

I tend to leave myself open for pk opportunities because I'm a little too passive to kill someone myself without good cause, which seems to be hard to acquire... that and I tend to play weaker characters in exchange for Minecraft play and healing magick, among other, similarly-strengthed choices (this is in the days where mages hit softer than merchants.)

It just seems hard, to me, to have, much less seek out a good, solid reason to kill someone unless you are a leader or outright on a contract or witch hunt (for witches or others.) Its your leaders telling you who to kill, who you have to slip a cure into their inventory and then bloodburn, whose apartment you savage... a lot of it feels like its out of the player's hands. But, maybe I am playing the wrong kind of characters, with the wrong kind of personalities. I once had a witch whom it was just a damn good idea to kill, but possibly the gem meant that someone would be attempting to kill the Arm's property, also witch--- however, she never really skilled up, was obvious about it, and there were a lot of witches who knew that. The world was literally better off without her, and after two months I had to store because I couldn't get a plot with that going. So, I don't know.

[Strongheart]

The real problem just goes back to what Nanimo said. Player killing doesn't even feel like conflict. It's just too mechanical. Everybody is a happy-smiley shit-eater until someone goes against the grain and then suddenly the bag of tricks with all the ez pk tools come out. Rarely are players willing to accept any risk with their player killing

I'd love to see some actual goddamn fucking conflict. But it's usually just one or a handful of players picking off the easy targets (the players that are taking risks and are willing to play weak characters, or didn't know about whiran summon lol)

Then when you consider the above after watching some bullshit go down yet again, you come to conclusion that player vs player conflict in this game is kind of always a shit show.

Completely agree.

[ShaLeah]

Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

It IS though. It HAS been for God knows how long.

http://armageddonmud.org/intro/what_you_know.php

https://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?rules


You may not like it, but murder, corruption and betrayal are the NORM on Zalanthas.

No it isn't. Because barely anyone plays it except to get their way.

No it isn't. Because I can play a character that is/does none of those things and get karma for it.

It's just a dumb marketing tool to bring in the thirteen year old edgelords. It has little to no bearing on actually what happens in the game. And I suspect the reason some players can't accept that is because they're attached to the nostalgia.

But it IS the norm, no matter how many times you personally play against the norm, it IS. Being able to play against the norm doesn't change the norm.  Player killing specifically not getting karma doesn't change the fact that it's normal in this realm.  You can't claim people barely use it and then claim a breath later that they use it too flippantly.

I find it hard to understand why, if Zalanthas as it *is* isn't the game YOU play, you appear really defensive and angry at the amount of murder your characters suffer through, encounter or witness.

We'll have to just disagree.  My experience with pk is one of the things that kept me in this game... and two of my characters have been pkilled while I was AFK.

[WithSprinkles]

I think death and PK are important parts of the game.

However.

I also lean heavily toward the ideals that this is a game that is supposed to focus on story, lore, and character interaction. Too much death in an RPI, to me is almost the same as respawning again and again in any other game. (I'm dead! I'm back! I'm dead! I'm back!) I'd imagined that in games such as these, we were supposed to be immersing ourselves in the world and the stories of our characters, knowing full well that those stories will end, but that along the way, we'd have enjoyed it.

There is nothing wrong with the death or killing to get ahead or protect one's interests, but I thought that we were meant to take in the ENTIRETY of the game's tagline, not just one part. Focusing on 'Murder' and calling things harsh can sometimes lead people to smashing characters against their foreheads like beer cans. Or feeling like they are the rumpled can.

PK is not to be eschewed or shamed. Most of us enjoy it. I just think that it should be understood that players came to this game because they saw potential for political intrigue, which are also aspects of the game. 'Corruption and Betrayal' are the game's other two major taglines. It is no surprise to me that we have a good portion of the player base that wants to immerse themselves in those aspects of play.

One solution might be to explore ideas to join the two play styles. Both like to get their hands dirty, they often just have different methods. They also both lean on and rely on one another when they need certain things accomplished.

Story: One of my characters opened an apartment door to find someone looting it, so they closed the door behind them and fled. My character thought briefly of locking the door behind them to give them a better head start, but I decided not to because ICly my character wasn't the sort to do that to someone (others, hell yeah, and nailed it shut too) . It went through my head in an instant that the other character might have walked in to an open door and I could be trapping them, so even if it meant running and potentially having to deal with things later, I just slammed it. I knew that other character might dash out and try to harm mine or find them later to silence them, but I also didn't report it. Later on that person DID come looking -- and I gained a good, loyal (as far as I ever knew - this is Arm) person at my side. They explained why and it was because my character didn't lock the door.
Story Resolution: Allow yourselves to be vulnerable and take risks on being fair to potential antagonists.

[roughneck]

Do not mean to target you Vex or you ShaLeah! But I think you can agree that Armageddon is about the story, what you and others add to that story, and what experiences that story provides to we as players or staff or whatever the heck you may be.

A story revolving around real conflict and real risk with/against other players will always be the most memorable and fun.

PK provides the gut-punch a good story gives you now and then.

[Inks]

Do not mean to target you Vex or you ShaLeah! But I think you can agree that Armageddon is about the story, what you and others add to that story, and what experiences that story provides to we as players or staff or whatever the heck you may be.

A story revolving around real conflict and real risk with/against other players will always be the most memorable and fun.

PK provides the gut-punch a good story gives you now and then.

+1. PK is cool and the whole reason the RP has meaning.

[number13]

+1. PK is cool and the whole reason the RP has meaning.

Other way around. The whole reason PKs have meaning is the RP. If the story isn't interesting, then neither are the PKs.

[Krath]

I think what Inky wants would be much more attainable if there was not the class ceiling.

Politicing had minimal affect on the game world for Nobles because you can't be a senior noble or Senate member.

Templars are capped at Blue robes, Military PCs stuck at Sergeant, GMH, you will never be a head of a house or near there to actually make a real decision besides garrison captain.

To be clear I am not complaining, staff bust their fucking ass and have for years, and it it why I still play, but if there were options available for the non combat PC's to actually politic, in the real sense, I think a balance could be found.

However,

MCB IS the mission statement of the game, but it isn't just M.

I'm also writing on my phone so if this seems rushed or all over the place that is why

[evilcabbage]

i thought aod could make lieutenant.

[Alesan]

This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?

[sleepyhead]

This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?

No, I don't think so. All you have to do is take into consideration that your character would be surrounded by MCB and keep in mind what it would mean to grow up in a society like that. And then do whatever you want that makes sense in that framework. MCB wouldn't be as fun if EVERYONE was constantly doing it and no one ever trusted each other. It's all about playing in a world full of that stuff, not necessarily about doing it yourself.

[Delirium]

This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?

No, I don't think so. All you have to do is take into consideration that your character would be surrounded by MCB and keep in mind what it would mean to grow up in a society like that. And then do whatever you want that makes sense in that framework. MCB wouldn't be as fun if EVERYONE was constantly doing it and no one ever trusted each other. It's all about playing in a world full of that stuff, not necessarily about doing it yourself.

Yep.

MCB is meaningless without the contrast of its opposite. If MCB is the linework, the rest is the color and shading that bring the picture to life.

[ShaLeah]

This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?

No. Murder, corruption and betrayal being normal doesn't imply that you HAVE to pursue it.  Your posing this makes me feel like you're experiencing the same thoughts I am on the subject, except about NOT pkilling.

I don't deem to tell people who play outside the norm that they're ruining the MUD. That they're causing people to stop playing like the against-pk faction does. The ones who don't play MCB? They're fuel for the norm.

This idea of offering the benefit of the doubt, or restraining yourself, is an OOC construct. Would the PC restrain themselves? Would the PC give the benefit of the doubt? In a harsh world like Zalanthas, it's possible, but I also think it's fudging the lines of IC and OOC too closely for my liking.

I give the OOC benefit of the doubt in certain occasions. Even when my PC is BEYOND real world justified for revenge I take the target into account, sometimes to my detriment.  Sometimes in game years pass before my character pulls that trigger against someone else.  Sometimes not. By far ANY hesitantion of mine is OOC. Truth is, in game, on Zalanthas? I don't need to practice restraint. My character can kill for any reason... even if she's just bored. Murder is normal there. Believe me when I tell you that that consideration I used to give will no longer be part of my play when I start playing again. 

However,

MCB IS the mission statement of the game, but it isn't just M.

The thread is about the M though and by the looks of it some players resent it and put an ooc spin on it that to me seems unjustified.

[Alesan]

No. Murder, corruption and betrayal being normal doesn't imply that you HAVE to pursue it.  Your posing this makes me feel like you're experiencing the same thoughts I am on the subject, except about NOT pkilling.

I'll admit, I posed this question knowing what kinds of responses I'd get, mostly because I wanted to draw attention to the idea that MCB is meaningless without its counterparts. I don't feel like I'm playing incorrectly when I play my characters. If I did, I wouldn't even be playing. So I don't think MCB should be considered the "mission statement" of the game. Nowhere in the documentation is it stated that MCB is the mission statement. Corruption is part of daily life. Betrayals and murder happen out of corruption and greed. It's a thing of natural progression in the story, not a goal of every character.

I have no other input on this thread. I just wanted to clarify this point. It's felt a couple times that MCB is being used as a big hammer against the discussions here, to the point where it started feeling a bit stifling.

I'm not sure what you mean about "except about NOT pkilling", though. Are you asking me if I actively avoid MCB?