Using "hunt" to detect hidden followers

[Synthesis]

Currently, you can use the 'hunt' command to detect whether someone is shadowing you, because you and your shadow will leave paired-up tracks everywhere you've been.

This seems like an inappropriate use of the hunt skill.  If you can't see them with scan, and you can't hear them with listen, you shouldn't be able to "get a hunch" by "looking for tracks." It would be nice if some kind of code check could be put in to remove this functionality.

[Cabooze]

Currently, you can use the 'hunt' command to detect whether someone is shadowing you, because you and your shadow will leave paired-up tracks everywhere you've been.

This seems like an inappropriate use of the hunt skill.  If you can't see them with scan, and you can't hear them with listen, you shouldn't be able to "get a hunch" by "looking for tracks." It would be nice if some kind of code check could be put in to remove this functionality.

I think shadowing is already strong enough as is, it has to have some weaknesses otherwise there will be no risk to shadowing someone that may be capable of discovering you.

[Miradus]

Hunting for tracks to detect follows makes perfect sense. It's even taught in the military to double back over your own trail to check for tracks or clues to see if you're being followed. Your eyes might miss someone hiding, but it's difficult for someone following you to cover their trail.

And it means there's TWO skillchecks to detect someone shadowing you, and makes me be more careful about who I shadow.

Of course if you stop to check for tracks while being shadowed ... you sure are vulnerable to a backstab.

[Heade]

I think I have to agree that checking for tracks when someone is following you is a legit way of getting that hunch that someone is following you.

[Dar]

I'll agree to this, to be honest.

The day there will be a mechanic where you're able to find a hidden person in a room, by exhaustively searching because you 'KNOW' there is someone in the room hidden, should be the day when hunt should stop noticing stalker's tracks.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Hunt should always be able to track tracks. Sneaking already lessens the chance of their showing.

[Brytta Léofa]

Sneaking already lessens the chance of [tracks] showing.

Maybe this effect should be scaled up a bit. Or maybe someone skilled in both sneak and hunt should leave lighter tracks than someone skilled in sneak alone.

[Synthesis]

Hunt should always be able to track tracks. Sneaking already lessens the chance of their showing.

The idea that you're doubling-back to see if someone is tippy-toeing behind you is...silly, from a realism perspective, unless you're in the open desert or something.

Sneak isn't really that useful vs. hunt, to be honest.  And that doesn't account for the times when you're shadowing someone who is walking or running.

If shadow is OP, it can be scaled back in another way.  Using hunt to counteract it is super gamey.  I've literally had people spam hunt and then turn around and say, "I KNOW SOMEONE IS THERE SHOW YOURSELF" which...yo...dude...I've tried to scale back my PK-first-ask-questions-later attitude, but...*twitch*.

It's on the same level as...so there used to be a certain room in the 'rinth that was flagged as outdoors, and mid-level players who had figured it out would always stop into that room to break their shadowers' hide.  Also, before climb checks went in, people would intentionally climb a single room down the well to see if they could get noob shadowers to fall down it.  You could argue all you want that it's a "check" on shadow being "OP," but that doesn't mean it wasn't fucking stupid.

[roughneck]

The idea that you're doubling-back to see if someone is tippy-toeing behind you is...silly, from a realism perspective, unless you're in the open desert or something.

Maybe being able to shadow as effectively and closely as you're currently codedly able to is also silly from a realism perspective?

Luckily it's not real, and we have a bunch of coded options for balance.

You can always sneak away from the person if you're worried about their hunt checks. Or kill them.

Hunt is s perception skill I believe, in addition for checking for tracks, you're looking for -any- signs of additional activity in your area. Activity, like, say, someone walking three feet behind you everywhere you go for a couple of hours.

[Inks]

I think it is a good use of the skill.

[Heade]

The idea that you're doubling-back to see if someone is tippy-toeing behind you is...silly, from a realism perspective, unless you're in the open desert or something.

Hunt is s perception skill I believe, in addition for checking for tracks, you're looking for -any- signs of additional activity in your area. Activity, like, say, someone walking three feet behind you everywhere you go for a couple of hours.

I agree with this. If you're shadowing someone down an alley or something, that is representative of taking cover behind things and such when someone turns around. It shouldn't stop them from using tracking to notice an extra set of tracks behind them, or some other hint of movement like ripples in a puddle(if there were puddles), or a stone they saw in one place having been moved to a slightly different place after they passed. There is a lot more to "hunt" than tracks.

Sort of like living with all females, and coming home to notice that the toilet seat is up, tipping you off that another man was there that day. That's sort of part of tracking too. Recognizing details and things that are out of place.

[Synthesis]

All I hear is a bunch of paper-rock-scissors justification based on the opinion that shadow is OP.  That's understandable, because it's really the only good argument.  The realism arguments sound pretty desperate, to be honest.

I'd be fine with shadow being nerfed, such that if you're actively shadowing someone, you take a penalty to hide v. scan and sneak v. listen checks versus anyone except that person, because you're actively trying to avoid -that- person's attention, which leaves you with less attention to pay to avoiding detection by everyone else.  The problem is that the range of hide skill-caps might leave it a problem.  At a high cap with good agility, you can basically shadow someone, go out to get a pizza, come back, eat the pizza, take a nap, then come back to the game and you're still hidden...which...yeah...is a bit much...and I understand the angst, there.  But...it's not a justification for a cheap workaround.

Still...the code question of how to take care of the tracks situation is a tough one.  The only thing I can think of to make it more realistic is to badly nerf hunt in the city, such that it more or less only returns blood trails.  I mean...detecting footprints in the city...is a bit of a stretch, and it seems that recently, hunt is usable in the city with far better results than I was used to a couple of years ago.

[Seeker]

It might be more challenging to code, but I think a reasonable alternative would be for shadowing PCs to only leave tracks when they leave a room.

That would still allow Hunt its functionality, but you have to backtrack  a bit to get the traces.  Not there right at your own boot tips.

[Heade]

All I hear is a bunch of paper-rock-scissors justification based on the opinion that shadow is OP.

Then you're not listening. Hunt isn't representative of only footprints. There are lots of other things that get noticed and jossled around when people move around, even if one is being sneaky. And being quiet/sneaky doesn't mean you don't leave footprints, or have some supernatural ability to not affect the environment you're moving through. Your body still has mass and is subject to the laws of physics, and thus hunting makes perfect sense.

I mean...detecting footprints in the city...is a bit of a stretch,

It's not just footprints...city hunt represents a multitude of investigative practices used to track people's movements in an urban environment. For instance, see toilet reference I mentioned before. It's a BUNCH of little things like that, that you can notice and use to discern that a human moved through here recently.

and it seems that recently, hunt is usable in the city with far better results than I was used to a couple of years ago.

This could be a result of the new classes, and people playing more class/sub combinations that give city hunt as opposed to only having wilderness versions.
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[Synthesis]

If hunt isn't actually looking for footprints, then why is it that footprints (and other signs of some sort of disturbance ON THE GROUND) are all that the command returns?

If hunt ought to let you detect people who are shadowing you, why doesn't it let you detect people who are shadowing you while flying or levitating?  After all, it's not -just- footprints, right?

Wrong.  It's fucking footprints, homie.  You can't detect hidden levitators because they aren't leaving footprints, because they're not touching the ground.  You're not getting hunches about invisible flying sorcs, no matter how much they're rattling with their gear, because THEY AREN'T LEAVING FOOTPRINTS.

[Heade]

If hunt isn't actually looking for footprints, then why is it that footprints (and other signs of some sort of disturbance ON THE GROUND) are all that the command returns?

Because it has to return an echo. It could have been more imaginative for the city version, and we could very easily change the echo to show something like:
"You look around for evidence of passage, here.."
"You find evidence that two people passed through here in the last hour."

But it was converted directly from the wilderness version, so it uses the same echos. It's just code, dude. You have to suspend disbelief a little bit and understand that despite what an echo says, it's representing a SKILL that encompasses many ways of tracking people. Even the wilderness version represents things like seeing small broken branches on plants or grass turned in an unnatural direction. If it didn't, why even make it a skill? ANYONE can see a footprint in the dirt. That's just the echo that the CODE uses to let you know you've been successful in utilizing the skill.

If hunt ought to let you detect people who are shadowing you, why doesn't it let you detect people who are shadowing you while flying or levitating?  After all, it's not -just- footprints, right?

Right, it's not just footprints. It's interacting with the environment. It's putting your feet on the ground, brushing against a table and making the liquid in a cup move, hiding behind a box and slightly moving the box, revealing a dust-free spot...it's all sorts of things that have to do with phsycally touching the world in order to remain hidden. If you're invisible and flying, you don't have to do any of that, and thus, won't leave tracks.

Welcome to playing a mundane. They have to touch stuff.

[Synthesis]

The idea that someone is doubling back, closely examining the debris in a trash-strewn alleyway, and thereby detecting signs that someone must be following him is absolutely ludicrous.  I really don't care how many words you try to use to defend it.  It's preposterous.

The only reason to deny it is to desperately try to avoid losing what is an admittedly extremely useful functionality.

There are TONS of things the code allows that don't make sense, and are fucking stupid.  Historically, those things were called 'twinking.'

[Heade]

The idea that someone is doubling back, closely examining the debris in a trash-strewn alleyway, and thereby detecting signs that someone must be following him is absolutely ludicrous.  I really don't care how many words you try to use to defend it.  It's preposterous.

The only reason to deny it is to desperately try to avoid losing what is an admittedly extremely useful functionality.

There are TONS of things the code allows that don't make sense, and are fucking stupid.  Historically, those things were called 'twinking.'

Making that not work would also make it not work when someone ELSE is using tracking following behind the guy who's shadowing the first person, which is equally as ludicrous. Also, paranoia is a thing. I've turned down multiple streets before to see if someone was following me. If I'm going somewhere I really don't want to be followed into, taking time to look for signs that someone is following me isn't out of the question. And I think hunt is a fine skill for doing that.

Would you prefer if they just put an "investigation" skill in that was separate from "hunt" that could clue you in on things like this? There -are- clues when you're not a levitating invisible ninja. Stealth shouldn't be levitating invisible ninjas. That's what magick is for.

[Synthesis]

My preferred fix would be to nerf city hunt so that it only shows blood trails, sleeping, tent-pitching, *certain magick thingie that can happen*, and maaaaaybe running, if you're really, really good at it.

[MeTekillot]

[number13]

Perma-hiding/sneaking is far more 'unrealistic' than hunting dusty streets for tracks. The entire stealth system is goofy. It enables degenerate gameplay. That there is a (inadequate) counter to it isn't a flaw, it's a virtue.

Personally, I think sneaking should come with the same stamina cost as running. And hiding should cost a set amount of stamina too. Further, once you're below a certain amount of stam, sneak becomes highly unreliable. The idea is to promote sneaking for short tactical bursts rather than perma-ninjaing.

[Armaddict]

Perma-hiding/sneaking is far more 'unrealistic' than hunting dusty streets for tracks. The entire stealth system is goofy. It enables degenerate gameplay. That there is a (inadequate) counter to it isn't a flaw, it's a virtue.

I dunnooooo.  There are books like Neverwhere that are based completely off the idea of people who hide in plain sight, no one -truly- noticing them all day even when looking directly at them.  Kinda the same basis for Arm: It isn't someone being invisible, but invisible they are anyway, because you're just not drawing any attention.

It's why you can hide in crowded rooms, and in sparse rooms.  There are actually plenty of rooms where hiding is next to impossible, and thus become 'catch shadower' traps, where if you want less hiding, you should probably put in more of those.

I find the idea of checking dust for someone behind you to be a little weird.  I mean...you have to cross that area before you leave tracks.  And if you circle back in the same room to a place where you find tracks, technically they'd probably be spotted on the way, but that would indeed be a broken detection mechanic.  A lot of you don't seem to realize the shifts in play that occur simply because people know you can hide.  There are two sides of the...'degenerate roleplay'.

I have to say that at least sometimes, it's okay to do though.  But if you think not having a detection method for stealthies is justification, you're...wrong.  If you're using it as scan, you're wrong.

Unless you want to finally agree with me that code is to be used in most ways to gain what information you need or accomplish what goals your character has regardless of what the echo tells you.