The Forever Grind and New Classes: Weapon skills

[Sunburned]

Here we go again (at least this time as its relevant to the new classes).

Per X-D's concerns about offense/defense, I initially settled on thinking that the baseline rise in off/def for heavy combat classes was a good thing. Now I've got a couple concerns, after taking new enforcer for a spin:
-For enforcers: branching sap and backstab requires branching from weapon skills. So far, I'm finding that its very difficult to accumulate the necessary number of fails on any opponent, especially considering that enforcers start with stand-out higher offense (per Brokkr's post). Admittedly, I have no idea at what point sap and backstab branch... but this is mostly a minor point against the larger issue...
-Generally, the same problem thats always existed still persists, but now it matters more: one of the distinct advantages of a heavy combat class is their increased cap on weapon skills. However, if there is a functional glass ceiling as there always has been, then this aspect of their overall potential can never be appreciated. This functional cap has, in the past, been less of an issue because you had clearly defined classes with clearly defined contexts where they had advantages, but now there is more of a gradation between the increased number of classes.

There is now a more sensible value to sparring other players, but only certain characters within 1-2 relevant combat clans with specific playtimes will be able to appreciate that benefit.

Nergal's change never fully fixed the problem: we still need to move away from a fail-system that is based on extremely select opponents.

I don't think this has to be change that yields to a new reality of everyone walking around with mastered weaponry: if weapon skills increased by the same mechanism of etwo (if how I think it improves is correct), then people would still have a (very) long but predictable and sensible progression... but it wouldn't be based on a single characteristic in an absurdly low number of mobs.

If we're shaking things up, why not correct this once and for all? The alternative is retuning mobs... but that seems like a far greater task.

Anyway, loving the new classes and all these innovations, staff.

[Synthesis]

Yeah.  Assuming skilling up and branching remain the same...enforcer is going to be a tough grind.  Probably impossible if you stay clan-based.  Probably impossible even in the 'rinth.  Even if you managed to do it...holy cow, man...you'd have to murder thousands of NPCs Iggs a thousand times to get there.

Soldiers are going to have a rough time, as well.  From my brief look through the help files, only Enforcers and Soldiers have branches from weapon skills.  Riposte and hack aren't really class-defining, though.

[stoicreader]

Prebranch with subclasses. Enforcers have the highest sap even vs old guilds. Thug subclass will give you a useable mundane  mugger PC that you can skill up from day one without constant attempted murder, just assault.

Slipknife can give you a backstab prebranch for 1 karma that opens up to sap with ease.

I like the coded handicap to enforcers. Otherwise they are OP out of the gate.

[MeTekillot]

Sap is being removed from slipknife to my understanding.

[Sunburned]

Prebranch with subclasses. Enforcers have the highest sap even vs old guilds. Thug subclass will give you a useable mundane  mugger PC that you can skill up from day one without constant attempted murder, just assault.

Slipknife can give you a backstab prebranch for 1 karma that opens up to sap with ease.

I like the coded handicap to enforcers. Otherwise they are OP out of the gate.

Honest question: have you ever reached advanced in a weapon skill? And if so, how long did it take you to get there?

[Inks]

Branching from any weapon skill is a design mistake. Seriously. I have had some tough pcs in the past but have never once managed to branch advanced weapon skills, I just can't grind hard enough.

[only_plays_tribals]

(couldn't fight the urge)

[roughneck]

I don't think mastery in weapons is the sole class-defining attribute of the Heavy Combat classes.

I don't think that weapon mastery is necessary now, or ever has been.

I think that if having backstab is concept making or breaking, and you don't think you can grind out enforcer, then you should pick infiltrator which caps at master backstab and gets the skill right out of the gate. It also has advanced cap on weapon skills which should be high enough for anyone who doesn't think that they could achieve branch-level on Enforcer anyways.

If training the skills up is easy or simplified, then every PC will end up the same, and that's boring.... it will also just lead to a new, higher 'glass ceiling' that players will inevitably complain about. As is, everyone seems to have a little different way of training up their PC which leads to a great deal of variety, which I appreciate.

[stoicreader]

Prebranch with subclasses. Enforcers have the highest sap even vs old guilds. Thug subclass will give you a useable mundane  mugger PC that you can skill up from day one without constant attempted murder, just assault.

Slipknife can give you a backstab prebranch for 1 karma that opens up to sap with ease.

I like the coded handicap to enforcers. Otherwise they are OP out of the gate.

Honest question: have you ever reached advanced in a weapon skill? And if so, how long did it take you to get there?

I am at advanced penmanship, journeyman nunchucks, master passive-agressive, and advanced guilt throwing. If I was Jewish, I'd be a stereotype.

Edited to add: I was born that way.


(No, I don't really play combat characters. Just flavor charactersc with my time constraints.

[Brokkr]

Branching from any weapon skill is a design mistake.

That is entirely dependent on the goal of the design.  I have a feeling the issue isn't the design, it is differing goals.

[Sunburned]

Branching from any weapon skill is a design mistake.

That is entirely dependent on the goal of the design.  I have a feeling the issue isn't the design, it is differing goals.

If the intention is to limit the number of enforcers with backstab/sap capabilities to nearly the extent of the number of warriors with advanced weapon skills, I would advocate that that should go in the helpfile: I think that branching from weapon skills is a few standard deviations above the mean in terms of difficulty, compared to other skills, and people should know what they're signing up for.

Also, if backstab/sap coupled with warrior-level combats skills are considered so powerful to necessitate putting them behind >20 days of grindy play-time (just speculating, obviously), then they probably shouldn't be accessible from day 0 with a subguild. Advanced weapon skills certainly weren't accessible via a sub. (edit: Jihaens excluded, of course)

[Synthesis]

Yeah, the grind wall basically just guarantees that the best enforcers will be able to do absolutely nothing but wreck face, because they had to pick a 100% overlapping subguild.

On the other hand, we are now at a point where you can theoretically reach the Holy Triumvirate of OPness:  a maxed warrior with backstab and fireballs.

[Sunburned]

Yeah, the grind wall basically just guarantees that the best enforcers will be able to do absolutely nothing but wreck face, because they had to pick a 100% overlapping subguild.

On the other hand, we are now at a point where you can theoretically reach the Holy Triumvirate of OPness:  a maxed warrior with backstab and fireballs.

Enforcer + sap/backstab sub will develop its own name: Revenge character.

[MeTekillot]

 

[yousuff]

a maxed warrior with backstab and fireballs.

or even more powerful again, a psionic maxed warrior with backstab

[Delirium]

a psionic maxed warrior with backstab

Muk Utep is that you?

[yousuff]

a psionic maxed warrior with backstab

Muk Utep is that you?

Holy shit a Muk Utep esque character is now codedly possible. I reckon Muk is a raider/psionic.

[Inks]

I've changed my opinion on this. If those enforcer skills branch at mid-late j/m it is absolutely fine. I like the idea of the combat classes starting ready to go. And backstab warrior is stronk.

Game on.

Us vets with solid code knowledge complain about any change, but I like MANY of the changes now. I like the idea of newer players having decent combat ability from the get go, or for older players to be able to have a potentially short-lived concept without all the grind (cultist, hired goon, mugger, noble  , etc)

[MeTekillot]

I'm also fine with warrior backstab


Fuck
Warrior backstab