1st new class major issue I see.

[Dar]

The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill.

If it doesn't make sense to put your PC in the situation to raise the skill then perhaps the PC doesn't need that skill raised?

Roughouse. May it be possible that you're arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean ... this is a brand new change in code. It 'could' potentially be flawed and therefore 'should' be discussed.

Now that old merchant guild is defunct, I can say this.  Before. For merchants to have skills such as basket weaving, stone crafting, jewelry making, tool making, and instrument crafting, the merchant had to go outside and practice their forage to journeyman.  They had to go outside due to lack of forage spots within the cities.  Yes. Even the bloodied Kadius, who supposed to have only seen raw sand from the window of the Argosy as it travelled across the Known, escorted by a troop of Byn and Falcons. They too, needed to go outside and dig rocks.

Or ... by your logic, they didnt need to be able to know how to craft jewelry? Let's not argue for the sake of argument please. Or are you being serious in your assertion?

[Sunburned]

The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill.

If it doesn't make sense to put your PC in the situation to raise the skill then perhaps the PC doesn't need that skill raised?

Roughouse. May it be possible that you're arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean ... this is a brand new change in code. It 'could' potentially be flawed and therefore 'should' be discussed.

Now that old merchant guild is defunct, I can say this.  Before. For merchants to have skills such as basket weaving, stone crafting, jewelry making, tool making, and instrument crafting, the merchant had to go outside and practice their forage to journeyman.  They had to go outside due to lack of forage spots within the cities.  Yes. Even the bloodied Kadius, who supposed to have only seen raw sand from the window of the Argosy as it travelled across the Known, escorted by a troop of Byn and Falcons. They too, needed to go outside and dig rocks.

Or ... by your logic, they didnt need to be able to know how to craft jewelry? Let's not argue for the sake of argument please. Or are you being serious in your assertion?

I think one of the challenges with discussing this is that although the special challenges with improving weapon skills apply broadly, they were brought up specifically as it applies to Enforcer branching.

If, hypothetically, the player base had been able to vote on the possibility of a warrior+backstab, I'm guessing that perceived consolidation of power would not have passed a popularity contest, as the number of players with different play styles exceeds the number that would be interested in playing enforcers.

Thus, anyone not playing an Enforcer is understandably not in a hurry to see them walking around at full bridle, and from that particular angle, they likely view weapon skills as just fine the way they are.

[roughneck]

Roughouse. May it be possible that you're arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean ... this is a brand new change in code. It 'could' potentially be flawed and therefore 'should' be discussed.

Admittedly that may be part of it. I'm feeling a little sassy and I have pretty uninterrupted evening
Changing things and getting people to 'make-it-work' is how I keep bread on the table... so maybe I'm just stuck in that gear!

But seriously, I really don't see an issue with Enforcer as is. I've seen the new guilds in the game, I see that it will be very difficult to branch an Enforcer to backstab, but most definitely possible. I also think that if you really need backstab for your PC, then choose a guild that you know will give it to you.

Now that old merchant guild is defunct, I can say this.  Before. For merchants to have skills such as basket weaving, stone crafting, jewelry making, tool making, and instrument crafting, the merchant had to go outside and practice their forage to journeyman.  They had to go outside due to lack of forage spots within the cities.  Yes. Even the bloodied Kadius, who supposed to have only seen raw sand from the window of the Argosy as it travelled across the Known, escorted by a troop of Byn and Falcons. They too, needed to go outside and dig rocks.

Or ... by your logic, they didnt need to be able to know how to craft jewelry? Let's not argue for the sake of argument please. Or are you being serious in your assertion?

I don't think this is apples-to-apples.
     - We're talking about one skill - backstab - not an entire skill tree.
     - The skill trees are posted so you know what class to pick to get the skill you want - if that skill is backstab, then take a class that starts with it, or use a subguild.
     - Branching crafting skills and mastering weapon skills don't belong in the same conversation.
     - Merchants didn't have a choice - one class, one skill tree. This is why we have the new system, you have more options for what skills you start with. If it doesn't make sense for your PC to grind out combat to branch backstab, then you should pick a class that starts with it. There are three classes with backstab, and a subguild with backstab, depending on what level you need it at, and how you want to get to it. Options baby.

If you look at the class for what it is, instead of what you want it to be, what I'm saying makes sense. If I could change Enforcer, I'd go for master stealth, Sunburned wants easier backstab branching, someone else might think it's bullshit that Enforcer doesn't get poison.... my point is that something is not broken just because it doesn't perfectly suit you and how you think you should be able to get what you want.

[Synthesis]

(aside) Actually, there are (were?) plenty of crafting skills based on your forage skill where you could raise your forage skill through crafting failures, instead of digging for rocks.  E.g. I think all of the "break large rocks into smaller rocks" crafts are forage-based.

That being said...the point remains:  we shouldn't have to place our characters into preposterous situations simply to advance.  If you want a (master) weapon skill to take 20 days played to get to, that's fine with me, but you should be able to do it via sparring or other regular behavior, not by seeking out the most agile mobs in the Known and fighting them at night inside a tremendous sandstorm.

[roughneck]

(aside) Actually, there are (were?) plenty of crafting skills based on your forage skill where you could raise your forage skill through crafting failures, instead of digging for rocks.  E.g. I think all of the "break large rocks into smaller rocks" crafts are forage-based.

That being said...the point remains:  we shouldn't have to place our characters into preposterous situations simply to advance.  If you want a (master) weapon skill to take 20 days played to get to, that's fine with me, but you should be able to do it via sparring or other regular behavior, not by seeking out the most agile mobs in the Known and fighting them at night inside a tremendous sandstorm.

I don't think any soldier/fighter/warrior - whatever - throughout history has been considered a 'master' without some hardcore, real combat experience.

[Sunburned]

Have you branched an advanced weapon skill, roughneck?

Synthesis isn't talking about just seeking out tougher mobs and fighting them in difficult conditions.

He's talking about straight-up, 100% twink-fest tactics. Lying on the ground and fighting rodents, for example, in a handicapped weapon style. The rodent fighting presents zero threat to the health of that warrior, and paradoxically actually has much better returns than riding out in a storm and being willing to faces desert tarantulas, or fighting another seasoned warrior.

Trust me - there's nothing intrinsically "hardcore" about what it takes to master weapon skills, other than it being hardcore stupid.

[roughneck]

Have you branched an advanced weapon skill, roughneck?

Synthesis isn't talking about just seeking out tougher mobs and fighting them in difficult conditions.

He's talking about straight-up, 100% twink-fest tactics. Lying on the ground and fighting rodents, for example, in a handicapped weapon style. The rodent fighting presents zero threat to the health of that warrior, and paradoxically actually has much better returns than riding out in a storm and being willing to faces desert tarantulas, or fighting another seasoned warrior.

Trust me - there's nothing intrinsically "hardcore" about what it takes to master weapon skills, other than it being hardcore stupid.

Yes, I've branched a weapon skill. Warriors haven't really been my thing, partly because I never enjoyed their progression and abilities as much as other classes, and partly because they tended to be less self-sufficient. But, I wanted to do it to see what it was like, so I played one with the intention of getting that sweet weapon-branch.

The cool thing was, that when I got my character there, it actually meant something because not everybody who hung out in a training hall for 20 days had the same thing. My mastery was rare and impressive.

And, I didn't do anything stupid like finding a way to lie down during fights with rodents like what you're describing. Did I take more risks than most characters would? Absolutely. Was it fun? Yes, it was. Ultimately, it took finding the right PC's to train with, and the right battles to test my character's abilities, which is what people who want to master things do. They find the best people to work with and learn from, and the hardest situations to test themselves.

[Delirium]

I've maxed out weapon skills. The best way to do this is spar intelligently with someone of similar skill level, but that is understandably difficult to find sometimes, so you will either need to train an apprentice or fight critters in the wild.  The 'in a sandstorm, laying down' is hyperbole, but you do have to be patient and willing to take a substantial amount of repeated risk. While I sympathize with the dislike of the grind, I'm not sure that making top tier skills easier to get is the answer. The real problem is that the current setup rewards those who are willing to resort to abusive behavior to speed up the process, and rewards those who are not abusive but are good with the code and patient, while punishing those who are great at role playing but bad at code.

In theory i like the idea of roleplay skillbumps. The problem is, the code is a great arbitrator. If we start giving out top tier skill bumps purely for roleplay without code involved it becomes a minefield where staff has to figure out how to be fair while dealing with accusations from players who disagree with staff decisions on how well they roleplay. So I think any solution to this 'reward the twinks' setup will ultimately have to be codebased as well. It's a conundrum.

[sleepyhead]

The solution is that it should be challenging without being unintuitive. If skilling up was reliant on challenging (not just any!) successes rather than failures, then we'd see a lot less silly stuff, not just with combat code, but also with things like crafters not using tools. Of course, this would require an entire reworking of the skill-up code, as well as changes to beginning crafts and such. But I think it's the only way to truly address the problem rather than just slap a bandaid over it.

[Synthesis]

I've maxed out weapon skills. The best way to do this is spar intelligently with someone of similar skill level, but that is understandably difficult to find sometimes, so you will either need to train an apprentice or fight critters in the wild.  The 'in a sandstorm, laying down' is hyperbole, but you do have to be patient and willing to take a substantial amount of repeated risk. While I sympathize with the dislike of the grind, I'm not sure that making top tier skills easier to get is the answer. The real problem is that the current setup rewards those who are willing to resort to abusive behavior to speed up the process, and rewards those who are not abusive but are good with the code and patient, while punishing those who are great at role playing but bad at code.

In theory i like the idea of roleplay skillbumps. The problem is, the code is a great arbitrator. If we start giving out top tier skill bumps purely for roleplay without code involved it becomes a minefield where staff has to figure out how to be fair while dealing with accusations from players who disagree with staff decisions on how well they roleplay. So I think any solution to this 'reward the twinks' setup will ultimately have to be codebased as well. It's a conundrum.

Every time we have this discussion, you bring up this time that you maxed a weapon skill by sparring...but I've never seen it happen.  Theoretically, I suppose it might be possible in a d-elf clan, or a clan that's 'gicker-friendly, or if you regularly used spice just for sparring, but...those are edge cases that are leaning more toward "contrived," or at least aren't widely applicable.

[Sunburned]

Arguments I'm NOT making:
-Increasing weapon skills should be easy.
-Maxing out weapon skills is impossible.
-Combat classes should be able to reach mastery without taking risks.
-You cannot increase weapon skills fighting against other players.
-Increasing weapon skills early on is difficult

The arguments I AM making:
-Achieving fails in weapon skills should be less conditional.
-Achieving mastery in ANY skill should take commitment... but the path forward should be intuitive.

As far as I know, the only ways of increasing your weapon skills as a skilled warrior are:
1) Fight one of a handful of animals capable of eliciting fails (which tends to be independent of their danger level), and:
2) Share regular sparring specifically with a skilled, long-lived ranger, preferably trained in etwo.

Things that (generally) won't help you, if you're past the novice gains:
-fighting any other combat class than experienced rangers.
-fighting any number of large, strong, dangerous mobs.
-training with people less skilled than you.

#1 is obvious and clearly over-cited.
#2 has been a road-in for some people in the past, if they're fortunate. It'll be interesting to see if with the defense changes cited by Brokkr if there will continue to be end-game opportunity to learn from clan-mates, since Rangers with their unique level of defense increase are no longer an option.

[Sunburned]

The solution is that it should be challenging without being unintuitive. If skilling up was reliant on challenging (not just any!) successes rather than failures, then we'd see a lot less silly stuff, not just with combat code, but also with things like crafters not using tools. Of course, this would require an entire reworking of the skill-up code, as well as changes to beginning crafts and such. But I think it's the only way to truly address the problem rather than just slap a bandaid over it.

I think the most accessible solution would be to make it so that every single class increased their rate of defense improvement to match that of the now-defunct ranger class.

This would be good on several levels:
-You wouldn't have to change the way weapon skills increase.
-PCs would become the best source of training for each other, long term.
-It would be consistent with the trend toward recognizing a maturing player base with less time.
-It would favor survivability without throwing off class balance.
-Its not class selective (other than some classes starting at lower defense than others, but this would be negligible long term, due to higher RATE of increase).
-Its already been "play-tested" for years.

[Brokkr]

If your experience in branching an advanced weapon skill, or getting ranger/assasin weapon skills to master was before Nergals changes, it is likely your experience is out of date.

The skills branch the way they do because we didn't want enforcers to get backstab/sap any more frequently than warriors got advanced weapon skills.  It isn't just a matter of how long.  It is also a matter of overall frequency.

I've had experience getting to that level weapon skills on both warriors and rangers, using different methods, using different NPCs, before and after Nergal's changes.  None of those ways were the small creatures some folks seem to think necessary.  I have a pretty good idea what it takes.  I know that folks can get themselves into IC situations where they never have a chance branch backstab/sap on long lived characters.  That is ok.

[Synthesis]

So, basically...enforcer without a backstab/sap subclass is an Armageddon Challenge Mode.

I hope you guys are collecting data about the new classes (and subclasses) and can track the distribution of player choices to see whether it's working out or not.

[Cind]

Yes, collect data now, and then a year from now, and then two years. I want to see what people are choosing, what short-lived people are choosing, long-liveds.

Introducing more optional challenge modes is awesome.

[only_plays_tribals]

I gotta ask. People keep mentioning Nergal's changes and I cant find any reference to what that means on the boards. Which changes were these?

[mansa]

I gotta ask. People keep mentioning Nergal's changes and I cant find any reference to what that means on the boards. Which changes were these?

Nergal was the public face originally announcing the change is classes.

Part of the changes was that branching skills was also changing.

[Sunburned]

I gotta ask. People keep mentioning Nergal's changes and I cant find any reference to what that means on the boards. Which changes were these?

Nergal was the public face originally announcing the change is classes.

Part of the changes was that branching skills was also changing.

That's not quite what I had been referring to in reference to Nergal's code change.

He made changes to weapon skills code that supposedly made it easier for people confined to combat clans to be able to train weapon skills with each other.

I never noticed any significant difference, to be honest, but other people's experiences seemed more positive.

[Brokkr]

No, that isn't a very good summary of the changes.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50628.msg927955.html#msg927955

A better summary would be, it is easier to get up to a certain level of weapon skill and offense/defense.  It is harder to get beyond that level.

[Sunburned]

(1) Twinking isn't required or (2) Twinking gets you an unreasonably big advantage.

Both of those used to be true - hopefully this change will close the gap on (2), not so much by nerfing the common twinking methods but by closing the gap between twinks and regular training.

If people can still increase their weapon skills by the "common twinking methods" but ADDITIONALLY they now have a random chance of skill increase against other skilled opponents, it seems that FUNCTIONALLY, circumstances changed around clan sparring and less so for hunters, intending to help to close that gap, yes?

I did leave out offense/defense as part of what was changed, though.

[Synthesis]

Give at least some of the city-stealth classes direction sense, so they can maneuver around the city in the dark.

[Vex]

I think being able to navigate in total darkness, or blinding storms, by instinct, shouldn't be handed out so trivially. It's annoying, really annoying, when you're wanting to go bar to bar without being noticed, but keep bumping into walls like a dunce, but it's already too easy to travel around, without ever needing to hire escorts or bring a friend, or even just break out a light source, like a normal person.

If too many people get it for free, especially city-based people, and it remains a global function, instead of environment based(city/desert varieties), it stops being a marketable skill and makes storms/darkness, as an environmental hazard (stumble in dark > off balcony > RIP > looted by elf), completely non-issues.

If it isn't a class that makes total sense to have it, it should require a subguild to give it to you. I'd give it to stalker, scout and adventurer only. Everyone else, sub for it, make friends, or stay in when it's stormy/dark out, like a sane person.

Not being able to see in the dark, seems like a pretty reasonable problem for most everyone to have...

[Synthesis]

Splitting direction sense into city/wilderness versions makes sense.

All the middle-column classes get wilderness direction sense.

All the first-column classes get city direction sense.

Outdoorsy subguilds get wilderness.

Sneaky subguilds get city.

Problem solved.

[Dar]

I like the idea.

Outdoorsy guys are able to navigate in storms.

City guys are able to navigate in darkness.

[Armaddict]

I'm more surprised that Allanak ever reaches pitch blackness to the point that you can't see the walls of buildings that form the streets.