1st new class major issue I see.

[Namino]

My last two warriors both branched advanced weapons. One around the 30 day mark and the other around the 25 day mark. The latter was the only active member in an iso clan with literally nothing to do all day but work up skills.

So 725 and 600 hours played respectively.

Assuming that Enforcer branches even 25% lower than this, that's 543 and 450 hours respectively. Not what I would consider very friendly to the casual players this class change was designed to cater to.

As Synthesis has alluded to, the increased starting point for offense and defense for these classes limits what PVE content is useful for them. The PVE content in Armageddon was already badly anemic before the class change, which resulted in hordes of players having to put themselves in

extremely contrived conditions.

in order to continue improving their skills. Now that we are starting people off closer to the edge of despair (that is, the point of character progression where it is mandatory to lay in a field one-handing against four turaals to get any skill up), we're going to see a lot of complaints, especially now if multiple classes have skills gated behind weapon skills (whereas it was just warriors before).

[Sunburned]

edge of despair 

It finally has a name worthy of the cumulative frustration. Well done.

[Brokkr]

Its pretty much just Enforcers that need to despair.

[Namino]

Its pretty much just Enforcers that need to despair.

While I agree with the sentiment that Enforcers have it worse because their branch points are locked behind the edge of despair, I wouldn't say it's just them. Even if you're not actively seeking a branch point, being unable to improve yourself is still an issue, for both gameplay and roleplay reasons.

For gameplay, the issue is obvious. We have hypothetical growth curves defined by skills (ie, a skill may cap at '90') that are not reasonably achievable through IC means (without serious shenanigans, you're going to level off far underneath the cap). At best, you might be in a sparring clan with one other insane son-of-a-bitch willing to trek beyond the edge of despair alongside you. While roleplay is the central point of Armageddon, it is a MUD and not a MUSH, so character skills also play a strong supporting role. Currently, the system by which many (principally combat) skills are increased is notoriously unergonomic. Ironically, the lackluster design behind this actually hurts roleplay more than it helps, as people are often forced to train their characters for a great many hours when they could be involving themselves in plots and roleplay instead.

From a roleplay standpoint, the common argument to this is that people shouldn't care so much about improvement, but that always makes me smack my gob. Considering anyone with a hobby or skill-based employment IRL, would it ever make sense to hear a boxer say they have no need to train? Or a marksman give up on improving their shooting? Many characters in Armageddon stake their very livelihoods and lives themselves on their ability to hunt and kill wildlife, or other people. Would it really be in character for these people to pat their hands together and say they're done trying to get better at the skills they rely on every day of their lives?

In reality, the current system just forces players to choose between two poor options: 1) unrealistically have your character become apathetic towards self-improvement or 2) unrealistically lay down in a field with four turaal bouncing all around them.

Now that the offense/defense overhaul is in place, more and more people are going to get to the point where they have to make the above decision.

[Nao]

In reality, the current system just forces players to choose between two poor options: 1) unrealistically have your character become apathetic towards self-improvement or 2) unrealistically lay down in a field with four turaal bouncing all around them.

What about 3) Find a sparring partner ?
It's in-character, and it's completely realistic that training will actually help you improve yourself, while beating random beasts to death will not.

[Namino]

Like all arguments, there are caveats, the most obvious of which is that this document is ignoring the role encompassed by players training other players. Sparring clans or simply training together in general circumvents this dearth of reasonable challenges, as both characters will gradually improve in step with each other, leading to a more natural sensation of growth as 'cohorts' of new characters help one another improve while being assisted by veteran characters. However, I do not believe a weakness in one component of the game is nullified by a strength in a different component. Rather, it should be a goal to modify the PVE content of Armageddon using the 'sparring' model of progressive, incremental growth. This will expand the variety of available, meaningful content that will aid in player retention and engagement (ie, you don't always have to spar to improve, you don't always have to paradoxically hunt turaal, you can challenge your character's limits and still improve).

Adding: The issue is more subtle with sparring, but still exists as two characters stand in the ring, one holding their weapon in one hand to deliberately handicap themselves, the other defending two handed for up to 20-30 OOC minutes at advanced levels of skill. It's better than having to lay in a field with tuural, but it's still not good or sensible by any means.

[Synthesis]

I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.

[Namino]

I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

It's true. My statements are more broadly aimed at the nature of coded character growth overall rather than bemoaning the inability for Enforcers to achieve effortlessly delete people tier.

[Sunburned]

I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.

Assuming Thug still exists as a sub by the time the work is through, you can have access to the arguably more dangerous branch from day 0 with no CGP expenditure.

[Synthesis]

I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.

Assuming Thug still exists as a sub by the time the work is through, you can have access to the arguably more dangerous branch from day 0 with no CGP expenditure.

Yeah.  Shit's wild, yo.  It'll be interesting to see how many people go for it.

[Sunburned]

"So, uh, what kind of talent do you have to offer us?"
"I kill people."
"...anything else?"
"I make people sleep and draw dicks on their faces."

[Is Friday]

Military clans should reward life long service and promotions with NPC teach lessons from master warriors. Do a good job? RP and lead a clan? These should be the route to convince an organization to invest further in their training. Let's encourage high end warriors to be roleplayers who give back to the clan, not isolate themselves.

[only_plays_tribals]

replace clan sparring dummies with absolutely incredible agility sparring elf slave?

edit: lol I know. But seriously though.

[Sunburned]

I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.

There's also a difference between "difficult to branch" in normal play versus requiring ridiculous strategies implemented for hundreds of hours.

There are plenty of examples of skills that require lots of commitment to develop. If you wish to improve weapon skills, however, you're deciding to make a significant compromise in your entire approach to playing the game, as Namino already described.

[Inks]

The game seems a lot easier now.

Skilling up weapon skills is signifigantly harder.

Filthy casuals.

Also I have never managed to branch off weapon skills, apart from knife making off assassin one time during twink Kurac golden age. I am sad.

[Dar]

If I understand correctly, it is no longer a given that skills branch at near max level.  Who knows, maybe enforcers branch skills at high journeyman? And the fact that they can 'master' weapons. What if weapon skills had no caps. What if they can be infinitely raised? Just with diminishing returns/increased difficulty. What then? Do people then spend 10 hrs a day sparring a horde of wezers still? Some weird arms race.

I understand wanting to branch that backstab, because your chara concept depends on it. But if it branched early and you are already a scary badass, what exactly is the incentive to put yourself in unlikely situations just to get that skill even higher.

[Sunburned]

If I understand correctly, it is no longer a given that skills branch at near max level.  Who knows, maybe enforcers branch skills at high journeyman? And the fact that they can 'master' weapons. What if weapon skills had no caps. What if they can be infinitely raised? Just with diminishing returns/increased difficulty. What then? Do people then spend 10 hrs a day sparring a horde of wezers still? Some weird arms race.

I understand wanting to branch that backstab, because your chara concept depends on it. But if it branched early and you are already a scary badass, what exactly is the incentive to put yourself in unlikely situations just to get that skill even higher.

Brokkr seemed to suggest that backstab/sap just a little below where advanced weapons branched for warriors.

Since I began playing this game in 2007ish, I have branched advanced weapon skills once on a character, and that was actually made easier because certain coded aspects of combat while riding hadn't been changed yet.

The degree of deviation from "normal play" that was required to branch was enough that I resolved that it was not worth it, as advanced weapon skills were functionally impossible to train to the point of exceeding normal weapon skills (with exception of 1 character that I've witnessed over the course of the last 11 years, who utilized a time-generous master ranger to circumvent the "edge of despair").

My concern is that a much more valuable incentive has been placed on training weapon skills (at least for enforcers and soldiers), and even if its within the realm of possibility of getting there, I would reckon that the path there is extremely narrow.

I'm not sure why the assessment of the situation for a lot of folks breaks down into: make it hard, or everybody will walking around with a nuke in their back pocket. There are plenty of examples of skills that attainable through long-term commitment to regular play, without being railroaded into strange tactics. For dual wield, for example, used to be the primary branch for parry for rangers, and was a hard-earned through regular combat, but well worth the effort. The time investment also seemed duly appropriate for the return: I rarely ever saw parry branching below 10 days played, even with hard play. And still, you could count on it happening if you put in the work, regardless of your clan context... and the achievement still wasn't common.

Its always left me scratching my head why weapon skills couldn't be the same. Hell, even if it took longer than the parry-branch I just cited, I'd still be happy, as long as the progression was rewarded in multiple clan contexts. Even if people didn't feel comfortable with Enforcers branching before 25+ days of playtime, I'd understand and be cool with it, as long as you didn't have to take up ridiculous tactics to finish out your weapon skills end-game.

[roughneck]

If I understand correctly, it is no longer a given that skills branch at near max level.  Who knows, maybe enforcers branch skills at high journeyman? And the fact that they can 'master' weapons. What if weapon skills had no caps. What if they can be infinitely raised? Just with diminishing returns/increased difficulty. What then? Do people then spend 10 hrs a day sparring a horde of wezers still? Some weird arms race.

I understand wanting to branch that backstab, because your chara concept depends on it. But if it branched early and you are already a scary badass, what exactly is the incentive to put yourself in unlikely situations just to get that skill even higher.

Brokkr seemed to suggest that backstab/sap just a little below where advanced weapons branched for warriors.

Since I began playing this game in 2007ish, I have branched advanced weapon skills once on a character, and that was actually made easier because certain coded aspects of combat while riding hadn't been changed yet.

The degree of deviation from "normal play" that was required to branch was enough that I resolved that it was not worth it, as advanced weapon skills were functionally impossible to train to the point of exceeding normal weapon skills (with exception of 1 character that I've witnessed over the course of the last 11 years, who utilized a time-generous master ranger to circumvent the "edge of despair").

My concern is that a much more valuable incentive has been placed on training weapon skills (at least for enforcers and soldiers), and even if its within the realm of possibility of getting there, I would reckon that the path there is extremely narrow.

I'm not sure why the assessment of the situation for a lot of folks breaks down into: make it hard, or everybody will walking around with a nuke in their back pocket. There are plenty of examples of skills that attainable through long-term commitment to regular play, without being railroaded into strange tactics. For dual wield, for example, used to be the primary branch for parry for rangers, and was a hard-earned through regular combat, but well worth the effort. The time investment also seemed duly appropriate for the return: I rarely ever saw parry branching below 10 days played, even with hard play. And still, you could count on it happening if you put in the work, regardless of your clan context... and the achievement still wasn't common.

Its always left me scratching my head why weapon skills couldn't be the same. Hell, even if it took longer than the parry-branch I just cited, I'd still be happy, as long as the progression was rewarded in multiple clan contexts. Even if people didn't feel comfortable with Enforcers branching before 25+ days of playtime, I'd understand and be cool with it, as long as you didn't have to take up ridiculous tactics to finish out your weapon skills end-game.

Play an Infiltrator. Poof, you don't have to branch backstab.

Enforcers, without backstab, are still badass warriors that with city stealth skills. This alone required extended subguilds in the past.

[Sunburned]

Choosing a different class isn't a fix to a **potentially dysfunctional branch point in another class.

I play my characters for, on average, over 2+ RL years. I can usually count on that character maturing far past their early advantages, and choose classes also based on their end-game potential, as they were designed. I don't think I'm asking too much to be able to see an Enforcer at its full intended potential, with enough time.

(**I say potentially, because I haven't seen where the actual branch point is, yet.)

[roughneck]

Choosing a different class isn't a fix to a **potentially dysfunctional branch point in another class.

I play my characters for, on average, over 2+ RL years. I can usually count on that character maturing far past their early advantages, and choose classes also based on their end-game potential, as they were designed. I don't think I'm asking too much to be able to see an Enforcer at its full intended potential, with enough time.

(**I say potentially, because I haven't seen where the actual branch point is, yet.)

If the class doesn't work for you and your concept, it's not broken, it just doesn't work for you. So, you should pick a class that does.

Pitch me a concept that requires an Enforcer class with branched backstab that:
     a) Infiltrator couldn't fill just fine
                -or-
     b) The PC could serve their purpose without the backstab

Backstab is not the defining trait of the Enforcer class, city stealth + warrior suite is what makes it unique.

[Dar]

Sunburned. The key of the issue is not that you cant play infiltrator instead of an enforcer.


The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill. The characters may choose to do so for some whatever reason, okey. But when the coding of the game is such that the only way one gains an access to a skill is via doing something entirely out of character. THAT is bad design.  It doesnt matter which skill, or which guild. Only that one should not need to be hunting gortoks in a dark cave for no other reason, but to get a single fail. Only because not a single other, saner option is available.  I can understand people doing weird stuff, because in game narrative removed potential options from them. (solo roles, area locked roles, etc). But the option should always be a possibility, otherwise the code is flawed.

Having said that. I'm not convinced that there is such a requirement to do weird stuff to branch these skills. Either the change that helps people learn weapon skills/offense/defense when fighting opponents who already have such high skills is enough to be able to achieve the branching point. Or the branching point is lower then what we think. Or ... or well. I dont know. Is it? I guess we'll find out eventually. I'm assuming backstab is ment to be a very very end game, result of an enforcer spending too much time with other shadies and eventually picking up some tricks.

I can only assume someone played an enforcer during beta and branched his skills no problem. Otherwise, what was the point of the beta?

[roughneck]

The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill.

If it doesn't make sense to put your PC in the situation to raise the skill then perhaps the PC doesn't need that skill raised?

[Sunburned]

If the class doesn't work for you and your concept, it's not broken, it just doesn't work for you. So, you should pick a class that does.

Pitch me a concept that requires an Enforcer class with branched backstab that:
     a) Infiltrator couldn't fill just fine
                -or-
     b) The PC could serve their purpose without the backstab

Backstab is not the defining trait of the Enforcer class, city stealth + warrior suite is what makes it unique.

Character concept is generally a separate discussion, since it could be argued that, with a few exceptions, that class does not define the concept. For instance, I once knew of a superbly bad-ass Byn Sergeant who was actually a covert whiran (and obviously was never able to make use of those abilities within the clan). Admittedly, having some alignment between concept and the mechanics of your class help, a lot.

Mechanically, backstab and sap -are- the defining trait of Enforcer, because you cannot achieve the warrior skills + master cap sap/backstab with any other combination of class and subguild, karma'd or otherwise. You can, however, have city stealth + warrior skills if you simply combined Fighter or Raider with rogue, cutpurse, or slipknife.

[Sunburned]

Sunburned. The key of the issue is not that you cant play infiltrator instead of an enforcer.


The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill. The characters may choose to do so for some whatever reason, okey. But when the coding of the game is such that the only way one gains an access to a skill is via doing something entirely out of character. THAT is bad design.  It doesnt matter which skill, or which guild. Only that one should not need to be hunting gortoks in a dark cave for no other reason, but to get a single fail. Only because not a single other, saner option is available.  I can understand people doing weird stuff, because in game narrative removed potential options from them. (solo roles, area locked roles, etc). But the option should always be a possibility, otherwise the code is flawed.

Having said that. I'm not convinced that there is such a requirement to do weird stuff to branch these skills. Either the change that helps people learn weapon skills/offense/defense when fighting opponents who already have such high skills is enough to be able to achieve the branching point. Or the branching point is lower then what we think. Or ... or well. I dont know. Is it? I guess we'll find out eventually. I'm assuming backstab is ment to be a very very end game, result of an enforcer spending too much time with other shadies and eventually picking up some tricks.

I can only assume someone played an enforcer during beta and branched his skills no problem. Otherwise, what was the point of the beta?

I agree with you 100%, and I'm still hopeful that somehow this issue is avoided in this new classes. And I acknowledge that I don't have the current data - only what my play experience has been in the past, before these new classes.

[roughneck]

Mechanically, backstab and sap -are- the defining trait of Enforcer, because you cannot achieve the warrior skills + master cap sap/backstab with any other combination of class and subguild, karma'd or otherwise. You can, however, have city stealth + warrior skills if you simply combined Fighter or Raider with rogue, cutpurse, or slipknife.

Well we can agree to disagree on what the class defining traits are. I would say a class-defining trait is what it gets without subguilds. Doesn't really matter how we see that one.

But to point - if your opinion is that it's too hard to get weapon skills up to 'master' - then Infiltrator should be fine at advanced cap.

I'm glad that it's going to be hard as fuck to pair up master backstab with max combat and weapon skills. If I ever want to do it myself on a PC, I'll figure it out then, knowing that it's going to be really, really, understandably hard.