Mundane Subclass Feedback

[Brokkr]

Grebbers do not, currently.  The change, as per the words in green down at the bottom (yes, if the words down at the bottom for an ability are a green, then it is an add), would be to make it so they can.

[valeria]

My main concerns are that I don't understand the point of the Minstrel subguild being so high karma without the ability to custom craft instruments, nor do I understand why there is no subguild for custom crafting floristry.  Obviously, I mostly play crafters.  (I also hate the 0 karma custom craft class, but if you're dead set on having this, there should be at least one extended subguilds that allow you to custom craft anything custom craftable.)

[cnemus]

In general I like the new subguilds array.

The only 'gap' I see is while there are a few options to add City traits, I don't see as many (any?) options to add Wild stealth/perception. I don't quite understand how that works, but I remember reading that you could get a base class with City skills/traits and then the trait from a sub to apply them to the existing skill, or vice versa. I would like to see those options balanced.

I personally hope there will be something in the helpfiles to clarify relative value within a tier. If I am choosing a sub specifically for one or two skills, I would be trying to get [high] advanced over [low] advanced, for example.

[Heade]

I'd still like to see the Spy ESG added with master stealth skills and all ESGs compressed to 1 Karma options.

I asked this already, but previously someone having 2 karma now was about 4 karma pre-compression, right? Does staff really think all these ESGs are 4 Karma selections? ESGs used to be free with a spec app, then went on to cost 1 karma pre-compression. Raising them to 2 post-compression makes them the equivalent of a 4 karma option pre-compression. Even more rare than that, considering that such a selection now eats up karma, stopping people from choosing an ESG again if they get backstabbed by some rando on their first day of play. That happens more often than I like, and at 2 Karma it seems like it's very harsh for things that shouldn't be that rare.

If these are kept at 2 karma, I'd expect to see staff get more complaints through the request tool when things like this happen. Having to wait 75 days to play your concept because someone murdered your brand new character on day 1 having never interacted with your character before seems brutally harsh OOCly, and doesn't seem like it will be a good thing for the population level on arm. I can certainly see such a thing breeding rampant frustration among the playerbase, leading to "breaks" that last until karma regenerates, or even longer. Compressing these all back to 1-Karma options will minimize that while still controlling the number of people playing them at any given moment.

[mansa]

I have a request for data.

For 2017, what was the breakdown of the characters created with class and subclass?

[Delirium]

Why no cc floristry or cc brew (not liquids, for the latter, but things like soap, candles, incense, etc)?

Why not just let apothecary keep master floristry, it's such an underutilized skill in the first place.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Why no cc floristry or cc brew (not liquids, for the latter, but things like soap, candles, incense, etc)?

Why not just let apothecary keep master floristry, it's such an underutilized skill in the first place.

I was confused by this too. Everything being shifted to varying shades of advanced across the board is a separate matter of a design choice. But it's one that's taking away master floristry, and let's be honest, nobody has broken the game using floristry comparative to other skills :x

[Brokkr]

Why no cc floristry or cc brew (not liquids, for the latter, but things like soap, candles, incense, etc)?

Why not just let apothecary keep master floristry, it's such an underutilized skill in the first place.

Apothecary still has Master floristry, according to the spreadsheet, so not sure where you are getting this from?  Now, the helpfile for Apothecary is still rooted in the pre-new class system, which was borked for floristry.  Merchant got it to a level lower than House Servant/physcian which was lower than Apothecary.  Now Heavy Merchantile get it to a higher level than Apothecary, but Apothecary still gets it to Master.  I am not aware of anything not rooted in the previous weird max skill levels that should prevent mastercrafting floristry as an Apothecary.

Brew is slightly different.  I messed up and it should be Master for Apothecary.

[valeria]

I also didn't see apothecary as a custom crafting guild with ability to custom craft floristry, but I was having a hard time tracking some things across the sheet.

In that case, the only one I'm concerned about is the lack of karma subguilds that can custom craft instruments.

[Insigne]

The decrease to shield use for Guard doesn't seem to be a decrease. Judging by the helpfile, it actually went from journeyman to advanced. Is that just a misplaced tag?

Moving on, I'm a bit disappointed with the decision to reduce master-able skills across the board (with the exception of language and craft skills). With the new classes, there seems to be a fixation on mixing and matching skills based on which ones you're willing to sacrifice mastery of, whether or not there's synergy between the two or more. You can master either sneak/hide or backstab/blowgun use, ride or charge, archery or bowmaking/fletchery - but not both. I thought the subclasses could have remedied that.

But, despite the mismatched synergy of some skill combinations, I think I could get used to the subclass changes. I do have a few other concerns, as well as suggestions, that I'll detail out below:

• Lower Cutpurse to the same karma level as Rogue. I like that the 'criminal' subclasses have been ironed out to roughly the same skill level. While I can see why Slipknife remains a 2-karma subclass despite having reduced stealth, I'm less sure about Cutpurse. What is the reasoning behind Cutpurse being higher than Rogue in the karma scale?
  
• Shift Recluse from crafting to wilderness utility. I'm a little uncertain about the similarities in crafting skills between Recluse and Master Woodworker. Maybe Recluse could be the wilderness solution for scan and listen, where there are two city-based subclasses that have both skills?
  
• Give other wilderness subclasses the ability to quit outdoors. There's a wealth of other outdoor-based subclasses: Nomad, Outlaw, Grebber and Outdoorsman. Is the ability exclusive to Recluse?
  

[Brokkr]

The decrease to shield use for Guard doesn't seem to be a decrease. Judging by the helpfile, it actually went from journeyman to advanced. Is that just a misplaced tag?

Because the current helpfile is wrong, in terms of which skill level the subclass guard can get you to.

Moving on, I'm a bit disappointed with the decision to reduce master-able skills across the board (with the exception of language and craft skills). With the new classes, there seems to be a fixation on mixing and matching skills based on which ones you're willing to sacrifice mastery of, whether or not there's synergy between the two or more. You can master either sneak/hide or backstab/blowgun use, ride or charge, archery or bowmaking/fletchery - but not both. I thought the subclasses could have remedied that.

But, despite the mismatched synergy of some skill combinations, I think I could get used to the subclass changes. I do have a few other concerns, as well as suggestions, that I'll detail out below:

• Lower Cutpurse to the same karma level as Rogue. I like that the 'criminal' subclasses have been ironed out to roughly the same skill level. While I can see why Slipknife remains a 2-karma subclass despite having reduced stealth, I'm less sure about Cutpurse. What is the reasoning behind Cutpurse being higher than Rogue in the karma scale?

Because Cutpurse has sap, a combat skill.[/quote]

• Shift Recluse from crafting to wilderness utility. I'm a little uncertain about the similarities in crafting skills between Recluse and Master Woodworker. Maybe Recluse could be the wilderness solution for scan and listen, where there are two city-based subclasses that have both skills?
  

Sorry, what?  Recluse has no crafting skills.  Just Direction Sense and the ability to quit in wilderness rooms.

• Give other wilderness subclasses the ability to quit outdoors. There's a wealth of other outdoor-based subclasses: Nomad, Outlaw, Grebber and Outdoorsman. Is the ability exclusive to Recluse?
  

Those subclasses aren't getting wilderness quit.  It was touch and go whether any would get it.  One intent of the revamp to both classes and subclass was to introduce trade offs.  You need to prioritize, make a choice, and there could likely be some things you would like to see in combination with one another at certain levels that you can't get.

[Insigne]

Because the current helpfile is wrong, in terms of which skill level the subclass guard can get you to.

Oh, I see. I don't have any experience with that subclass so I wasn't sure. Thank you for the clarification!

Sorry, what?  Recluse has no crafting skills.  Just Direction Sense and the ability to quit in wilderness rooms.

Oops. In that case, consider that a mistake on my part. It looks like the fields with 'mastercraft' extended to Recluse's row. I assumed that meant both Master Woodworker and Recluse shared the same skills.

Those subclasses aren't getting wilderness quit. It was touch and go whether any would get it.

That's fair. I wasn't sure which skills Recluse got at first, but it makes more sense now.

One intent of the revamp to both classes and subclass was to introduce trade offs.  You need to prioritize, make a choice, and there could likely be some things you would like to see in combination with one another at certain levels that you can't get.

That brings me to my earlier issue with the changes. On paper, trade-offs, prioritizing and making choices might work well, but the execution seems flawed. There's a heavy fixation on the three categories (Combat, Utility, Crafting) and it's very limiting for concepts that might mix-and-match skills from multiple categories. It's not just a matter of how I would like to see some skills in combination with one another. It's the way skills work codedly: some of them rely on one another to work.

There isn't even an option to sacrifice a skill or two so that a skill from category X can be on par with another skill from category Y. So, all things taken into consideration, that intent seems to fall short realistically and with the way skills work off each other.

[Brokkr]

The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.

[sleepyhead]

I think the problem isn't so much that master stealth + backstab/sap is inherently broken. It's that stealth itself is broken and needs a revamp.

If the stealth system were better and less gamey, it wouldn't be the case that you're either an undetectable ghost or you're just standing there like an idiot because you didn't know you failed your sneak check 5 rooms ago and thus are not even attempting to hide anymore. Stealth shouldn't be as unbeatable and risk-free as it is at max sneak/hide, but it also shouldn't be so clumsy as it is at advanced. It's too binary.

This isn't really within the scope of these changes. But I would hope that staff might look into getting to the root of these problems rather than just trading one problem (completely invisible OHK/OHKO-ers) with another (assassins who don't even know how to tell they forgot to hide again). I have a lot of ideas about how to make sneak/hide more interesting and realistic, and both more fun to play with and play against, if you guys are interested in hearing them in the future.

[Synthesis]

I think the problem isn't so much that master stealth + backstab/sap is inherently broken. It's that stealth itself is broken and needs a revamp.

If the stealth system were better and less gamey, it wouldn't be the case that you're either an undetectable ghost or you're just standing there like an idiot because you didn't know you failed your sneak check 5 rooms ago and thus are not even attempting to hide anymore. Stealth shouldn't be as unbeatable and risk-free as it is at max sneak/hide, but it also shouldn't be so clumsy as it is at advanced. It's too binary.

This isn't really within the scope of these changes. But I would hope that staff might look into getting to the root of these problems rather than just trading one problem (completely invisible OHK/OHKO-ers) with another (assassins who don't even know how to tell they forgot to hide again). I have a lot of ideas about how to make sneak/hide more interesting and realistic, and both more fun to play with and play against, if you guys are interested in hearing them in the future.

The problem is, in order to have a long-term character that does -anything- that might get you crim-flagged, you have to be an undetectable ghost, or the crime code will nuke you from orbit.

[sleepyhead]

Crimcode definitely needs to be fixed, too, but some of my stealth ideas would involve more risk of discovery from PCs without the crimcode necessarily coming down on you. I don't want to get into the meat of the ideas here, though, because it'd be off-topic.

[Insigne]

The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.

I'm curious why?

The combinations of stealth + backstab/sap/blowgun use aren't the only ones that are affected, but they do seem to be the ones most affected by the change. There's even an option to master charge without ever being able to master ride. With the way ride works, that seems like a recipe for a lot of falls.

If there's something I'm missing about these combinations, and the reasoning behind changing their effectivity, I'd much appreciate being informed. If it falls in line with sleepyhead's post, it seems like skill combinations aren't the problem and the way stealth works should be given a look.

[Heade]

The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.

Does that mean adding a "Spy" extended subguild that only gets Master Sneak/Hide/Listen and advanced scan would be out of the question? Maybe give them flee too. This wouldn't have any combat abilities, so it wouldn't have the previous slipknife concern. And any character that took this specifically in order to have backstab and stealth at master would be hyper-specialized with no "cover" skills to pretend to be anything else. Personally, I think that is a tradeoff.

I think a spy extended subguild would have much further non-combat application, as well. I'd like to use that sub on a merchant. It'd give non-combat characters a realistic defense when in danger(run and hide) or allow you to play a merchant/spy concept.

[flurry]

I'm happy that rogue was improved. I found that extended subclass a little disappointing when I tried it in the past, particularly the pick skill which I thought was meant to be its signature skill. Now I'd be more inclined to choose that subclass again.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I've never been great at stealth so perhaps something is happening that I have not understanding of.
If I have scan on and someone is successfully hiding, I can see a shadow, but I can't know who or what it is. If their hide is good enough, even with scan on I can't see them at all. If their hide is terrible, I can just see them. Right?
Similar with listen and sneak.
It was changed so that stealth activities are more effective at night, or at least, that for crim code, at night if I am caught doing something sneaky, there is a chance I won't be insta ganked or arrested by NPC guards.

Is all that accurate?

[yousuff]

where's my edgy nilazi subclass its been five years i want to play 1 staff please

Seriously though, rogue and cutpurse, just like pickpocket/burgler were with the miscreant, should be merged as they offer the exact same utility except one can pick pockets and the other can pick locks. Their skillset should be pick (Jman) hide (advanced) sneak (advanced), steal (advanced) and peek (advanced).
Branching is pickmaking (branched off pick, apprentice), and scan (advanced, branched off of peek) .
Hide/sneak should be city only, as should scan.

[Synthesis]

where's my edgy nilazi subclass its been five years i want to play 1 staff please

Seriously though, rogue and cutpurse, just like pickpocket/burgler were with the miscreant, should be merged as they offer the exact same utility except one can pick pockets and the other can pick locks. Their skillset should be pick (Jman) hide (advanced) sneak (advanced), steal (advanced) and peek (advanced).
Branching is pickmaking (branched off pick, apprentice), and scan (advanced, branched off of peek) .
Hide/sneak should be city only, as should scan.

I think the split is fine.  Cutpurse also gets sap, and you have to choose between advanced peek or advanced watch.

[Vox]

The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.

This intention makes me sad.

[Heade]

So Brokkr never really replied to any of my posts, and said the window for feedback is quickly closing a few days ago. Is this discussion considered closed, or is it still ongoing?

[mansa]

I made a thing.



It's Mansa's spreadsheet, updated for subclass revisions.

Skill level descriptions in green had the skill go up, or added.  Skill level descriptions in red had the skill go down, or removed.  Sometimes you will see a skill that has the same description as before, but it is either red or green.  This means the numeric value went up or down, but it is still within the same skill range that goes with that descriptor.  In general, the same skill will have the same values across a karma level, with a handful of exceptions.  Those exceptions should all have different word descriptions, and thus be obvious.

In general, I split skills up into either combat, survival, or crafting.  The following are general rules of thumb I used, may be a few exceptions to this here and there.  With the guild structure, every skill has a theoretical level it would be for each class.  So while a particular combat skill like slashing weapons may not be on any Heavy Merchantile classes, there is a value it would be at (the same as the weapon skills they do have) if they did have it.  That is what the below refers to, when referencing skill levels.

For 0 karma subclasses, combat skills are below what any class would get them at, survival skills are no better than the worst class, and crafting skills are no better than the second worst class.
For 1 karma subclasses, survival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.
For 2 karma subclasses, combat skills are no better than the 3rd best class, suvival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, and crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.

The idea was to tie subclass maximum skill levels back to skill levels of the classes, while recognizing that certain skills are more beneficial and/or allow more impact when used against other PCs than others.  Thus the tiering from combat to suvival to crafting.

For 1 karma and 2 karma subclasses, the split was determined by whether the subclass receives any combat skills.  If it does not, it is 1 karma.  If it does, it is 2 karma.

Is this change implemented now?