Casual Play

[azuriolinist]

I know this topic has been addressed many times over the years. But I think it's worth revisiting.  I think we all know how difficult it is to get involved in and keep up with events, relationships, and plots in Armageddon when play times are limited. The goal I'd like to strike here is to find a way to make casual play more viable, but to always encourage in-game interaction and play unless unavoidable.

So I'm wondering if you all have any ideas how we can possibly address this. The popular suggestion in the threads I managed to skim (there are a lot) is to play a flavor concept suitable for casual play, limit relationships, roll a character that you can solo RP with, or special app a character with raised skills. These are likely the best ways to take on a casual role with the way Armageddon currently works.

Besides those, there were some great suggestions, IMO, that I've come across throughout a number of threads that I could see being implemented in order to make casual play more feasible and more likely to generate interaction. I'll list a few that I recall, with some of my own suggestions thrown in:

• A messenger NPC stationed in specific locations in a city, outpost, etc. who can receive and pass on messages in a whisper -- both for a substantial price. This way, hiring PCs would still be preferable, as the NPC poses its own risks and drawbacks.
• A random chance for passive skill growth for every day a player is offline -- but only for a selected skill (that the player can choose and change at any time). This could perhaps be affected by wisdom so that when your PC is high in wisdom, they're more likely to gain skill points over time. There's a huge drawback to this in that, especially for those who prefer not to grind, being offline is almost encouraged. I'm thinking a cap could be placed at journeyman -- even apprentice -- for any selected skill.
• Increase the amount that wisdom affects skill gain. That way, perhaps wisdom might matter more than it does, now (besides for magickers).

Edit: I just wanted to add that Miradus's idea of giving skill boosts based on age is wonderful, and could perhaps play into casual gameplay.

[roughneck]

I think the new classes will solve a lot of this. When you start with higher caps, have cross-factoring of skills to affect successes on things like ride, and you begin play with more of your key skills rather than having to grind out to branch them - casual play should be realized (as much as casual play is a thing in Armageddon). New classes, yay!

[najdorf]

this fits to my current situation. due to RL reasons playing a role with high dependency to other characters or plots can be stressing to me, and unfair to the world. I think it doesnt have much to do with guilds though.

[azuriolinist]

I think the new classes will solve a lot of this. When you start with higher caps, have cross-factoring of skills to affect successes on things like ride, and you begin play with more of your key skills rather than having to grind out to branch them - casual play should be realized (as much as casual play is a thing in Armageddon). New classes, yay!

I'm excited for the new classes, and the higher start on skill levels is a big part of that. You're right, and I hadn't thought about that. They could definitely fit into casual game play.

this fits to my current situation. due to RL reasons playing a role with high dependency to other characters or plots can be stressing to me, and unfair to the world. I think it doesnt have much to do with guilds though.

That's a really fair point.

I suppose the people I'd like to target are those (new players and old) who do want to be involved somehow, even with the restriction of casual play times on their end. There's this urge to clock in 4-6 hours a day on Armageddon if you hope to be embroiled in plots. I think if this was eased, we could retain more new players -- and the old -- who have responsibilities IRL that make it difficult to keep up anything other than casual play times.

[Riev]

I think a staggering issue is that you can play 2 hours a day in Arm and, if they are consistent hours, you will eventually find people and plots to hook into.

But depending on your playtimes, it may be the same people time after time. Which for some can get very disenchanting, very quickly.

The problem really comes with the code. Playing 2 hours a day can still mean you get a "decent" character in a couple RL weeks, but only if you're 'blessed' with the knowledge and ability to take advantage of it. Not everyone understands how to skill up, or how to do it efficiently, or are in a position to utilize it. New guilds can solve that, to a point. But nothing can solve the idea that "He is around 4 hours a day, so he's probably more skilled than the guy I see once a week".

[Harmless]

I am not worried about skill training but I have learned tricks on how to gain them over the years that newer players may not have. High wisdom is a boon as is. The min maxing game of how to get the required failures needed for gaining skills should be detailed by the staff and code further though just to get us all on the same page. For instance, I think we all know once thought we could hamper our character's success rate by being burdened in combat; however, being burdened doesn't seem to affect crafting success at all, the code changed at some point so that this no longer was a functioning mechanic. There does seem to be a higher chance of failing a craft skill if you do it repeatedly, which has been referred to as a "crafting timer" before on previous discussions. Being drunk probably increases the chance of failure but it always felt dubious to me that people would learn their skills better while drunk (doesn't being drunk worsen memory retention?), but you often had that salty Byn sarge who came to sparring piss drunk because there was no other way they could fail and get a skill point somewhere. I do admit this mechanic is a time tested one and actually makes booze codedly advantageous and creates funny situations, though.

The real point is that if I just helped some player out there have an "ah-ha" moment by typing that sloppy paragraph above, then maybe we should just make a helpfile with a "guide to training your character's skills" that goes into more detail for advanced training and skill branching.

I also want to give a big kudos to staff for more transparency on skill branching order in the new guilds in development. This is already the direction I agree we should be going in, to demystify. The higher starting skills is fine also, I have asked for that in the past to help encourage people to roleplay as antagonists or be willing to take risks without so much fear of losing all the hard work they did to skill up their PC.


More important drawbacks to casual playtimes are definitely communication related. I have been a proponent of Waying offline, messenger NPCs, more in game message boards, etc, for a while. Just joining a clan is a big help currently but not everyone can deal with the isolation that may entail. A playtimes command that allows you to see when someone is usually around... being able to be pinged with an email once a day by someone who logged in just reached out for your character offline over the Way, if you gave them permission to notify you that way maybe. Plenty of options, all of which would improve means of characters finding each other.

Some folks seem against such ideas, seem to think that current means are good enough.. using other people to relay messages, clan boards, etc. I dunno how true that is for all roles. Some people play in tents in the desert. So... I do hope some of the previously discussed ideas get accepted some day.

[Delirium]

Being overly encumbered actually lowers the chances of skilling up. You can probably thank the people who would spar while holding full water barrels, or bags full of rocks while fighting stilt lizards, for that.

[Harmless]

well, I'll be. I will say this -- having unnecessary mystery behind the code to skill up is what creates those kinds of ridiculous, non-IC/Metagaming strategies. See above

[puella]

While not true of every player, some players want to be involved in plots and stories when they log into the game with their characters.  One of the best ways to facilitate this would be a kind of culture shift: avoid viewing the characters as a bundle of skills in a game, e.g., "that character isn't good enough at ride yet to go fight the gith", and instead view them as potential characters in a story.  In more concrete terms to demonstrate the cultural shift:

1. Grab that 0 day character fresh out of chargen and take them out on an adventure.
2. Send your 0 day character fresh out of chargen on an adventure.

[azuriolinist]

I think a staggering issue is that you can play 2 hours a day in Arm and, if they are consistent hours, you will eventually find people and plots to hook into.

But depending on your playtimes, it may be the same people time after time. Which for some can get very disenchanting, very quickly.

I agree. Consistent play times help a ton when it comes to being involved and making meaningful IC relationships. I still believe that plot involvement and finding RP remain an obstacle for casual players -- particularly newer players.

A while back, I remember someone on the GDB suggesting some sort of world-wide (Known-wide?) newsletter on the main website. I think the idea was that public events (maybe taken from the rumor boards) would be put up there. This might provide an easier way for a new player to know where things currently stand in the game world, and how they could shape their character to fit into ongoing plots. I loved the idea.

The problem really comes with the code. Playing 2 hours a day can still mean you get a "decent" character in a couple RL weeks, but only if you're 'blessed' with the knowledge and ability to take advantage of it. Not everyone understands how to skill up, or how to do it efficiently, or are in a position to utilize it. New guilds can solve that, to a point. But nothing can solve the idea that "He is around 4 hours a day, so he's probably more skilled than the guy I see once a week".

Yes. Nothing may ever completely solve that idea. But I think there are ways to -- at the very least -- ease the grind for casual players. Just so that they have some possibility in being considered ICly 'useful' (and therefore involved) in IG situations and plots where coded skills are required.

I also want to give a big kudos to staff for more transparency on skill branching order in the new guilds in development. This is already the direction I agree we should be going in, to demystify. The higher starting skills is fine also, I have asked for that in the past to help encourage people to roleplay as antagonists or be willing to take risks without so much fear of losing all the hard work they did to skill up their PC.

I wholeheartedly agree. The entire way the new classes were handled, from play testing to including the entire skill sets in helpfiles, is well done.

More important drawbacks to casual playtimes are definitely communication related. I have been a proponent of Waying offline, messenger NPCs, more in game message boards, etc, for a while. Just joining a clan is a big help currently but not everyone can deal with the isolation that may entail. A playtimes command that allows you to see when someone is usually around... being able to be pinged with an email once a day by someone who logged in just reached out for your character offline over the Way, if you gave them permission to notify you that way maybe. Plenty of options, all of which would improve means of characters finding each other.

These are, IMO, great ideas. I've always wondered about including the number of players in certain public and generally VNPC-populated locations (taverns, most likely) in the WHO list. Limited to the PC's current area, of course. I know it's a step from Armageddon's total lack of OOC, but since these places tend to be crowded with VNPCs, I don't see the harm if it makes it easier for people to get together and roleplay.

[azuriolinist]

While not true of every player, some players want to be involved in plots and stories when they log into the game with their characters.  One of the best ways to facilitate this would be a kind of culture shift: avoid viewing the characters as a bundle of skills in a game, e.g., "that character isn't good enough at ride yet to go fight the gith", and instead view them as potential characters in a story.  In more concrete terms to demonstrate the cultural shift:

1. Grab that 0 day character fresh out of chargen and take them out on an adventure.
2. Send your 0 day character fresh out of chargen on an adventure.

Apologies for the double-post, but agreed. The new classes seem to make this way more plausible than the past guilds, as well.

[Delirium]

While not true of every player, some players want to be involved in plots and stories when they log into the game with their characters.  One of the best ways to facilitate this would be a kind of culture shift: avoid viewing the characters as a bundle of skills in a game, e.g., "that character isn't good enough at ride yet to go fight the gith", and instead view them as potential characters in a story.  In more concrete terms to demonstrate the cultural shift:

1. Grab that 0 day character fresh out of chargen and take them out on an adventure.
2. Send your 0 day character fresh out of chargen on an adventure.

This. INCLUDE EVERYONE. Even that clueless noob. Take risks. Do shit. Go out on adventures. Give people things to do. If they pick it up and run with it, great. If they don't, who cares? Someone else will come along. Survival is not the end goal of the game. The end goal is having fun telling stories.

Casual play is a lot easier when you aren't reliant on other PCs to keep things moving. For better or worse, the best characters for casual play seem to be wanderers, outcasts, hunters, and flavor roles. You likely aren't going to get deep into the meat of plots, but you can be a fringe part of them.

Unless you create your own plots. Then, if you're patient, you can make things happen.

[Feco]

I also think there's a bit of a culture problem, and not a real code problem (although I'm not against an ingame, offline messaging system).

We have a really inflated sense of what's normal play, because I think we all play way too much.  Remember we talk in days played talking about characters.  That's insane compared to other games.

I have my bouts of high-hour playtime, but as a now casual, maybeee an hour a day player, its can be a bit frustrating getting back in game.  Oftentimes it's met with "WHERE WERE YOU?!," and sometimes an attempt to treat a PC as unreliable IC, because I'm unreliable OOC.

From an IC perspective, that's a perfectly valid question/accusation.  From an OOC perspective it's like... dam fam, you know where I was.  I was in real-life wishing I was playing.  Or maybe I was spending that day playing another game, or doing some other fun activity with my fun time.

I agree with what's already been said about taking risks, including people, and not taking a skill-based outlook.  I'd also add... ease up.  Just be stoked when you see people you like, and maybe just ignore that your character hasn't seen them for weeks.

[sleepyhead]

I agree that we should ease up, Feco. Although sometimes people quit or store so we do worry about the absent!

[Delirium]

Yeah, the difficulty is in not knowing whether the player is absent, or the character is dead/stored.

If there was a way to check if an absence is IC or OOC, that would probably make things a lot easier - but it would have to be carefully handled so that characters who want to absent themselves from the Way through various IC means so as to appear dead or missing, would still be able to do so.

Being able to rely on the OOC/IC uncertainty to get away with killing people and not having the death reported for some time is probably not something that should be happening, anyway.

[Miradus]

Being able to rely on the OOC/IC uncertainty to get away with killing people and not having the death reported for some time is probably not something that should be happening, anyway.

Relying on that uncertainty is exactly what should be happening when people are PLAYING FAIR.

But plenty of times, 5 minutes after you PK someone, everyone knows who did it, where it went down, and your complete description. This happened several times when there was no legitimate way of anyone knowing.

My hat is off to those who play fair, but the reality we're stepping around here is that plenty of people don't. And it's really hard to explain to Lord Templar that, "They couldn't possibly have identified me, my Lord, because I was wearing a facewrap and a completely different set of clothing."

[Delirium]

I think my meaning was not clear. The sort of uncertainty you are referring to is good and desirable. The sort of uncertainty I refer to is the "gee, I can't find Amos' mind. Is he dead or just logged off?"

[Miradus]

I think my meaning was not clear. The sort of uncertainty you are referring to is good and desirable. The sort of uncertainty I refer to is the "gee, I can't find Amos' mind. Is he dead or just logged off?"

Oh, gotcha.

Yeah, makes me wonder what kind of life Amos is living if people start suspecting he's dead if they can't find him.

[Is Friday]

I have my bouts of high-hour playtime, but as a now casual, maybeee an hour a day player, its can be a bit frustrating getting back in game.  Oftentimes it's met with "WHERE WERE YOU?!," and sometimes an attempt to treat a PC as unreliable IC, because I'm unreliable OOC.

From an IC perspective, that's a perfectly valid question/accusation.  From an OOC perspective it's like... dam fam, you know where I was.  I was in real-life wishing I was playing.  Or maybe I was spending that day playing another game, or doing some other fun activity with my fun time.

Yeah, I go right ahead and stop playing around people who give me that line. Or I store to play somewhere else. Turns out that being heckled IC for OOC shit is triggering after playing this game for 11 years. No, I don't want to play an exorbant amount for any reason--to include facilitating your power fantasy.

[Cowboy]

I always wonder how each of us defines "casual" play.  I'm pretty sure some sort of vote would give a wide range of answers.  An hour or two a week isn't going to get you involved in much of anything.  A hour or two a day? Possible to do.  I have had periods where this was my situation and I tend to play atmosphere characters.  A working man; butcher, wagon loader, street cleaner.  Some role where I'm just a face in the crowd with stories to tell or questions to ask.  Hunter is possible even Byn but you need to try be consistent with your hour a day.  Stick to the schedule.  Interact around the barracks or the Gaj.  Leadership roles are a burden and do take time.  Forget that or you will get the questions Feco talked about.  My advice is don't take leadership roles if time is short.  The other question I have regarding this discussion is what plotlines are you trying to get into or create?  Sometimes, players with small amounts of time, need to lower their expectations. There is still plenty of fun to be had regardless of goals or the time you have to spend IC.

[mansa]

Perhaps we should publish all "single player" activities that are possible in each area of the game, in order to help make known what is possible to do if you only have 30 minutes to play.

[Harmless]

sharing a save room with someone is a great way to communicate offline.

If you share an apartment, you can do any number of things; add a flower to a vase each day (if there's flowers around) or add a different stone to a stone arrangement. Change the ldesc on an item in the room.

When I had a child vNPC with a fellow player who I shared an apartment with, we would change the baby's item's long description with the arrange command after an emote of interaction with the child to show that we had done something that day.

That way if we didn't run into each other's playtimes for several days, we could at least log on and learn that the other person was around.

There are a few save rooms scattered about that aren't behind a locked door (though the number of publicly available save rooms is actually declining of late, notably all those save rooms that were broken-into homes in Allanak which have all been fixed up and turned into locked-door homes).

[Akaramu]

I also think there's a bit of a culture problem, and not a real code problem (although I'm not against an ingame, offline messaging system).

This. This would help so much, even offpeakers who aren't casual (just offpeak).

[Tekky]

My only problem is if I start something with someone who has consistent times at X hour, then don't log in for four-five days and doesn't give me a comment on when to find them again.. Well, it makes it hard to plan and include them in anything.

The OOC stigma of being like "ooc hey, I play weekends at 7-9 PM" is also a bit weird.

[Riev]

My only problem is if I start something with someone who has consistent times at X hour, then don't log in for four-five days and doesn't give me a comment on when to find them again.. Well, it makes it hard to plan and include them in anything.

The OOC stigma of being like "ooc hey, I play weekends at 7-9 PM" is also a bit weird.

I have tried to intimate, many times, about whether I'd be around or not. On the rare occasion I play during Peak (after work) times, I try to say that I'm "not usually around this time" or "I wouldn't expect to see me so late in the week", so that people know.

I always cry out consistency. If I know you play from 4pm to 5pm most days, but that's it? That's fine, I know not to expect you around until them. But if your playtimes change to 6pm+, I'm going to get frustrated because now we'll never see each other.

[boog]

I also think there's a bit of a culture problem, and not a real code problem (although I'm not against an ingame, offline messaging system).

This. This would help so much, even offpeakers who aren't casual (just offpeak).

The offpeak population really isn't as stark as it used to be, though. There are plenty of people around during the USA days.

The issues I've seen and run into are from people who can't be on regularly.

[In Dreams]

Casual Arm?! Oh, that'd be nice.

I'd love to play Arm casually, but I don't think there's such a thing. Playing Arm for "just" two hours in a day kinda feels worse than not playing at all because of all the PCs who want to see more of you. It's like, just barely enough to get a glimpse of the neat stuff that's happening that you don't have time to be a part of.

I don't think there's really a solution to the problem of it, though. This kind of game feels kind of like an escapist second life and to have the full, enjoyable experience of it just demands a lot of time. More than someone like me can really give anymore.

[azuriolinist]

I agree that a lot of the problem is focused in the culture and how many hours one is almost expected to put into play. That said, and particularly for combat/skill-oriented players, I think some changes could ease a shift in said culture.

I don't think there's really a solution to the problem of it, though. This kind of game feels kind of like an escapist second life and to have the full, enjoyable experience of it just demands a lot of time. More than someone like me can really give anymore.

There also tends to be a lot of idle time spent doing the day-to-day kind of thing, working on skills, or even waiting for other people to RP with. It's a big part of why I'm suggesting ways where skilling up could be made easier on casual players. I love how the new classes address this, and how players can be involved in plots (where skills may matter) right from the get-go.

[Akaramu]

Playing Arm for "just" two hours in a day kinda feels worse than not playing at all because of all the PCs who want to see more of you.

Two hours a day is casual? Oooh boy. What of 5 hours a week? 

[roughneck]

Playing Arm for "just" two hours in a day kinda feels worse than not playing at all because of all the PCs who want to see more of you.

Two hours a day is casual? Oooh boy. What of 5 hours a week? 

2 hours a day is not casual.

[Cowboy]

Five hours a week?  This is not the game for you.  Players that prioritize their lives and have only five hours a week to play Armageddon need to lower the bar they set for enjoying this game.  You probably would get more fun doing something else with the time.  You are a casual player, of Armageddon, by choice.  Regardless of your RL situation you still choose what to do with your time.  Sounds to me like " I would like a fulltime pay check for part time work." Why?  Complex, time consuming plotlines are part of this game.  It seems unfair to reward a four or five hour a week player with some IC benefit when non-casual players work hard to get the same rewards over time.  Are there games out there where a five hour a week player is on the same footing as a 25 hour a week player?  If so, how is that handled in game play?   

[roughneck]

Disagree - 5 hours a week may mean you have to adjust play style and choose a suitable role, but you can find a niche. You don't have to be leading a clan to enjoy Armageddon.

2 hours a day though - what role can't you do with 2 hours a day?

Let's all realize that the more options we make for the casual player, the more people will play the game. Then, instead of playing with the same hardcore players and PC's everyday, the world becomes richer as you have more numerous encounters with a broader range of characters.

[Cowboy]

That's what I said in an earlier post.  Lower the expectations of what a five hour a week player can do.  I still don't get the thought process of the player who asks to be treated diiferently because they choose to spend less time in game then others.  They want the 20+ hour a week players to keep the world alive and what it is and what they want to be a part of.  They want that world alive when they are ready and on their terms.  And they want to be buffed enough to do what?  A fighter with a shield can get by from hour #1.  You aren't going to kill gith or the work over the Byn sergeant but you can have fun.  Master craft from the get go?  What?  What plot line do you want into? What plot are you thinking you want to be part of?  I hear "I just want to be skilled enough to have fun."  No way to qualify that.   Make your own fun.   Create a character, jump in, die.  Jump in again.  That's fun. You'll either walk away or play more hours.

[stoicreader]

It seems unfair to reward a four or five hour a week player with some IC benefit when non-casual players work hard to get the same rewards over time.

This is... Not appropriate.

I'm pretty sure that 100% of us, if when making our first character, were told that we needed 2 hours a day (at least) to enjoy this game, we would never have submitted the application.  Do you want new players or not?

Its hard to get folks to take their vitamins everyday. People have trouble making their bed. Why would anyone agree to 2 hours a day out of the gate?

Ohhhh you like meditation? You wanna get into that? You'll need to spend 2 hours a day. Otherwise it's not worth it.

Ohhhhh you want to run a marathon? You only need 1 hour a day. Why is running a marathon is less of a time investment over a game. How does that make sense?

This is a game sweety, its supposed to be casual play and it's supposed to be fun for casual play.

Just because some of you are willing to give up your careers and neglect your kids doesn't mean the rest of us aren't allowed to have fun.

[Akariel]

Please do not post strawman arguments to attack other players.

[lairos]

To tell anyone that if you can only spend five hours a week on Arm that it probably isn't the game for you isn't really cool at all. Honestly, the fact that people with only five hours per week to put towards a game and that they are CHOOSING to play Arm with that time says something.  Those who can not devote as much time just likely won't see as much action or be able to accomplish as much as quickly, but I still think they would be able to have fun while they played and be able to accomplish things. Will they likely be able to achieve leadership roles with it? No, but they can still have fun with their time.

I still say some form of consistency can go a long way for even casual players, even if the consistency is the same time 3 times per week or just weekends. This allows others a general way to be able to find you and interact, if that is what you are looking for. A lot of players who used to be able to devote a lot of time because of whatever reason have also changed. The game is meant to be fun and if you are having fun, no matter the time you are able to invest, then by all means they shouldn't be dissuaded from it.

As to the OP. I think maybe if there were suggestions for players on what they can do themselves that could eventually get them into a place where they might see other players or be able to get involved in something if they want that they have an opportunity to do so. I get asked a lot of questions just from starting players on what they should do first or what jobs can they do without getting into a clan. I think suggestions to casual and new players alike, such as in a new player suggestions guide would be beneficial.

[Riev]

The only way I'll say "only playing 5 hours a week" is a problem, is when someone volunteers for a sponsored role/leadership position but they have a variable, 5-hour-a-week schedule. At that point, its a problem, because for leadership, consistency is key. If you recruit me into the Byn, but it was during a time you NEVER play, I am never seeing you again. And that curtails my own experience and fun in the role.

However, for literally anyone else? Play whenever the hell you want. I selfishly suggest trying to play consistently. If you can only play 3 hours every Friday? Cool. I know when to catch you to invite you to stuff. If you play 4 hours per day? Awesome. I'll know you're about if I have a question.


2 hours every day isn't a casual gamer. That's how often I play video games in general, and that's my entire evening after chores, dinner, activities, and time with my girlfriend.

[Miradus]

Some of us are "in game" for hours upon hours, whether we're actively playing the game or not. We're available to be contacted, etc. A substantial portion of our play is idle. We "activate" when someone contacts us, shows up, etc.

I'm often working in another window until my mud window chimes a bell letting me know I've been Way'd or that someone has arrived in my room, etc.

Not everyone can do that, or wants to do that.

I do agree with both sides of this. You're going to get more out of the game the more you play. You're going to be able to reach out to a wider range of other people, be available for more activities, etc.

However, it's not mandatory for enjoyment. That all depends upon your individual tastes.

Where I do get annoyed is when I'm in organizations where leadership puts a hard clamp on all of your activities, literally demanding you talk to nobody, do nothing, go nowhere unless they are present, and then that leadership is literally never present. I've seen entire weeks go by with no leadership present, even though that leadership has mandated you have no interaction without their approval. I generally try and quit those organizations, or I end up storing. Sometimes this "do nothing" state is canonized, but other times it's just the whims of those particular leaders.

[deskoft]

I have the luxury of being able to leave my character available for a big portion of the day, even if I am not actively paying attention to the window (pretty much what Miradus said), so that I can be contacted or what not. This is a system where I am multitasking with any other tasks I need to do, and I push my armageddon brain forth (aka devote my full attention to the window) when it -does- demand my attention. I try to give some time for tavern skimming or random scenes a day.

This way, my character has a small window nook to meet new characters AND at the same time, he is available for a very ridiculous length of time but it's not like I am sacrificing my real life to do it. I am focusing on everything else until my character is needed. Obviously if I have something pretty important to do, I'll log off.

[Cind]

For me, its not a question of the amount of time put in, its a question of availability. Lots of tasks at home at do. The Byn requires for you to be able to stay online for a few hours at a time for contracts, and since I'm not sure every sarge would let me go to gate -right before every contract,- even if I were only a runner, I haven't been in the Byn in years.

Its a good availability/time balance for some flavors of mages and indie merchants, so I can't complain. Thank god there are roles in this game that don't require you to see other players at the same time every day.

[Akaramu]

Thank god there are roles in this game that don't require you to see other players at the same time every day.

There used to be more of those roles. 

[Suhuy]

I think there's far too much emphasis placed on required playing hours. Not just in this thread, but I see the topic come up lots of times and it's always framed from the angle of "I can only play one or two hours a day and therefore it's not enough". This is totally not true. There are roles you might want to avoid if you're that limited, but even then... not necessarily.

I disappear for days, sometimes literally a week or more at a time. Sometimes even if I'm playing a sponsored role. And guess what? Life goes on, the planet continues to rotate on its axis, and all is fine. Let's contrast players who have limited playing hours with those who play excessively. The players who are on excessively are often inattentive and sluggish, you can feel how exhausted they are in front of their keyboards. There have been multiple instances where some PC repeatedly informs me, IC, how tired they are - I then have to find an IC way of saying "why don't you go log out for a while if that's the case" (because I know they're not talking about IC fatigue). I'd honestly rather have to chase after someone who is hard to reach then have them be crippled with exhaustion from overplaying.

More important than playing a lot, to me, is playing reliably and consistently. If you're on two hours every single day... seriously, dude, that's actually kind of a lot. You could be a military sergeant and run short hunting expeditions with that much time if you were organized enough. What I think would help is a means of increased communication tools such as the messenger NPCs which others have proposed or even an ArmageddonMUD app which lets you use telepathy only with your character. Imagine if the Way were a constantlly available outlet to reach a PC. It could be as simple as every time you log on, all your Way messages come in at once. I can already predict the arguments against having these sort of things, but if we had it you could get a lot more plots and projects going, that's for sure!

[WithSprinkles]

Text games are very much like MMOs in the sense that gamers are its life's blood. If people log in and no one's wandering around and enjoying the scenery, lots of folks will just log right back out and consider the game dead. This game has people wandering around plotting during the off peak and later in the day everyone else joins in the chaos. It's active and that should be encouraged.

There are a plethora of valid reasons why people could be in front of their screens for however many hours and I am not going to probe into their business to know why. If we want to encourage sensibility and moderation as a community, we can do so as the MMOs and console games do and put reminders about on the splash page of the game itself or on the forums. We can also share respectful tips together about how we all play. For example, putting a trigger into your personal system that goes off every hour to remind you to sit up and stretch. Otherwise, I won't count anyone else's hours and I will wave someone off if they personally comment on mine. I think that people in sponsored roles should make face time, but if they can manage limited time effectively and do something in a role that other people applied for and wanted, I circle back around to, "It's not my business."

Play as much or as little as you want, folks. Find others to do that with. Heck, I never even put much thought into what an off-peak player was until folks started talking so much about it and then I realized that I kind of am one when I feel like it. I play because I like to. I'll stop when I no longer want to. Why do I feel like I should be braiding a wreath of flowers and bopping people on the heads with it after I finish? It's a game. Enjoy it, dammit!

I'm in love with the idea of NPC runners. Beside the Gaj, outside the Aboretum, the entrance to Hathor's and outside the Noble Quarter maybe? To start. Eavesdrop checks on spoken and whispered messages to the NPC. Nobles can possibly get their messages delivered on slips of paper, but they'd still have to be initially spoken to the NPC.

The Way Answering Machine.. sounds good.. if people are limited to ONE message. Not a continuous monologue. ONE. Quit OOC gets logged, and I think Ways of this sort should be monitored too, if they get implemented.

[stoicreader]

I am greatly in favor of being able to psi while logged out. Greatly.

[Insigne]

I was thinking of something similar to the above suggestions: a way to receive psi messages while logged out. Maybe throw in an echo that's code for 'this PC is offline' and, if it's implemented a certain way, it could serve as a deterrent against Way-sniffers, too.

[Delirium]

I have a kind of radical idea, and I'm not sure how feasible it is, codedly, but hear me out:

Any character or NPC that is currently alive should be able to be Wayed, regardless of whether they are in game or not. You would likely need to include their short description when targeting them by the Way, as well as their name and any nicknames you know. You would still see their short description when sending the message. Sending a message over the Way would be extremely costly, so you would need/want to keep the message as concise and to the point as possible.

Upsides:
No more way sniffing. Ever. You can't tell if they're actually online.
Much easier to pass crucial messages to people, for RPTs or plots, etc.
Fewer "extended conversations" over the Way. People would have to use whisper, talk, etc more often.
Offpeak roles could probably get involved a lot easier. Arrange dead drops for passing of items, etc.

Downsides:
How 'barrier' works would need to be adjusted. I think it should remain as a viable way to hide your mind, or pretend to be dead.
Harder for isolated roles to have conversations without traveling to a location.

I feel like this would go a long way toward solving the problems with the Way as it currently exists.

It would both make crucial communication easier, while helping the world to feel bigger.

[Akaramu]

I like Delirium. 

[Insigne]

I have a kind of radical idea, and I'm not sure how feasible it is, codedly, but hear me out:

Any character or NPC that is currently alive should be able to be Wayed, regardless of whether they are in game or not. You would likely need to include their short description when targeting them by the Way, as well as their name and any nicknames you know. You would still see their short description when sending the message. Sending a message over the Way would be extremely costly, so you would need/want to keep the message as concise and to the point as possible.

Upsides:
No more way sniffing. Ever. You can't tell if they're actually online.
Much easier to pass crucial messages to people, for RPTs or plots, etc.
Fewer "extended conversations" over the Way. People would have to use whisper, talk, etc more often.
Offpeak roles could probably get involved a lot easier. Arrange dead drops for passing of items, etc.

Downsides:
How 'barrier' works would need to be adjusted. I think it should remain as a viable way to hide your mind, or pretend to be dead.
Harder for isolated roles to have conversations without traveling to a location.

I feel like this would go a long way toward solving the problems with the Way as it currently exists.

It would both make crucial communication easier, while helping the world to feel bigger.

+1

I'll rescind my suggestion because yours is much better. I'm just a little unsure about the complete inability to tell whether or not the person you're Waying is online - but that's because I'm the type of person who would wait the next 5-10 minutes just to be sure.

[Lizzie]

Not in favor of anything that might tip someone off that a person is dead, that they didn't find out IC about. If you have master psi (which everyone does now), and you know Amos is always logged in at 6, and he's in your clan and hasn't posted an "I'm away for 3 days" post, and you have never had trouble getting his mind when he was logged in...and nothing else has happened IC to give any indication that he might be dead...

you should not magickally know that his character is dead just because you can't find his mind now.

We go out of our way to roleplay that our missing brethren might be "doing chores" or "at the compound" or "on gate duty" or "taking his Long Run" for a few days, when we suspect someone might be dead, but aren't sure. Eventually we conclude that yes, he's dead (though even then, sometimes they end up showing up months later, alive and well).

Guy who wants to rob an apartment - "oh yeah - he's dead, safe to loot it." No risk necessary. Guy who wants to murder the noble: "oh yeah, his aide is dead, I definitely have a chance now!" Guy who wants to BE a noble's aide: "w00t - his recent aide is dead, I'll just mosey on up and introduce myself all efficient-like."

This proposal would offer opportunities that shouldn't exist because of OOC knowledge of IC character existence, and would eliminate risk and opportunity that should exist because of lack of knowledge of IC character existence.

[Marauder Moe]

The proposal seems to suggest that lack of ability to contact someone would be IC knowledge that someone is dead, as realistically it should be.  We do hand-waving about how the Way is mysterious to cover up the fact that our characters can't be on-call 9-11, but surely we don't suggest that it's well common for people to be unreachable by all parties for weeks, months, or years at a time, right?

Let's also not forget that when a person dies there are other signs that the game simply can't accommodate for, like v/NPCs clannies, neighbors, friends and/or family not having heard from them.

I don't really think playing "dead, stored or bored?" really adds much to any plot.  If you want to pretend to be deceased, let's maybe allow barrier to do that.

[stoicreader]

What if wayspeak happened on a third party website that can be monitored for abuses? Something like Discord meets 1984.

[Riev]

I disappear for days, sometimes literally a week or more at a time. Sometimes even if I'm playing a sponsored role. And guess what? Life goes on, the planet continues to rotate on its axis, and all is fine. Let's contrast players who have limited playing hours with those who play excessively.

More important than playing a lot, to me, is playing reliably and consistently. If you're on two hours every single day... seriously, dude, that's actually kind of a lot. You could be a military sergeant and run short hunting expeditions with that much time if you were organized enough.

Just reposting bits for posterity. Sometimes you can't find Suhuy's PC for a week, but when you do, they are always fun and interesting to interact with. Also, it is VERY RARE for them to say "I need you to find me <x> item" and THEN disappear for a RL week (which I think is at the core of many frustrations).

Consistency is key. Second to that, by a very small margin, is do not allow plots to rely on your playtimes if you cannot BE consistent. Telling people they require your EXPRESS permissions, but then you can't be around to offer those permissions, is frankly you RPing a hardass, and IRL being a jackass.

[Delirium]

If someone really is saying YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING UNLESS I'M AROUND that is in fact unreasonable. However, if it's just one plot among others, why not focus on other stuff until that one plot can move forward?

Sometimes, unexpected stuff crops up and a key player can't log in. Family, job, life, computer issues, whatever. Making a player feel guilty for their absence is not going to make them want to hurry back when those issues are resolved. It's going to make them want to say 'fuck it' and play something that is fun and doesn't come with weird guilt trips attached.

On another note, I feel like this is an issue cropping up more often in recent years because of the push to include as many different clans as possible in any sort of RPT/plot push. While the push for inclusiveness is admirable, it's a simple fact of life that the more people you include, the more cumbersome it is to get OOC factors to line up in such a way that IC progress isn't unduly impeded.

[Miradus]

I like Delirium's idea pretty well, though my mind is boggling at how hard it would be to code. You'd need an outside helper API to pick up all the Way content and store it until a character logged on to retrieve it. What rules would be set around this? Could a mindworm sniff through the API or only intercept "live" Ways? How long would messages exist in the API before being purged? What happens when the character dies before messages are delivered?

Pretty fascinating to think about, actually, as a coding problem.

ETA: Cut out something that belonged in the other thread.

[stoicreader]

I like Delirium's idea pretty well, though my mind is boggling at how hard it would be to code. You'd need an outside helper API to pick up all the Way content and store it until a character logged on to retrieve it. What rules would be set around this? Could a mindworm sniff through the API or only intercept "live" Ways? How long would messages exist in the API before being purged? What happens when the character dies before messages are delivered?

Pretty fascinating to think about, actually, as a coding problem.

ETA: Cut out something that belonged in the other thread.

There is an easier workaround.

1. Allow people to idle without losing water or food. Or at a reduced rate. Krathstruck would be the command to go idle. While in the state you are hyper vulnerable to attack with stun reduced to 10 points and defense turned off. Quasi sleep. Like lucid dreaming.

2. Create a psi feedback echo that echos back, "Your way message went through but appears to have been sent slowly." (Or whatever)

With this method, leaders and minions can log on in their compound, walk away, go to bed, and check any messages in the morning.

This would put greater emphasis on the coded protection of clans vs independent groups.

[Lizzie]

I like Delirium's idea pretty well, though my mind is boggling at how hard it would be to code. You'd need an outside helper API to pick up all the Way content and store it until a character logged on to retrieve it. What rules would be set around this? Could a mindworm sniff through the API or only intercept "live" Ways? How long would messages exist in the API before being purged? What happens when the character dies before messages are delivered?

Pretty fascinating to think about, actually, as a coding problem.

ETA: Cut out something that belonged in the other thread.

There is an easier workaround.

1. Allow people to idle without losing water or food. Or at a reduced rate. Krathstruck would be the command to go idle. While in the state you are hyper vulnerable to attack with stun reduced to 10 points and defense turned off. Quasi sleep. Like lucid dreaming.

2. Create a psi feedback echo that echos back, "Your way message went through but appears to have been sent slowly." (Or whatever)

With this method, leaders and minions can log on in their compound, walk away, go to bed, and check any messages in the morning.

This would put greater emphasis on the coded protection of clans vs independent groups.

So when a Senior Agent finds your mind and tells you that if you don't come within the next hour (RL 10 minutes), they'll consider you a deserter and hunt you down like a gortok...

you'll be okay with that, right?

Personally I'd rather they simply can't find my mind, and then they'll know that either my character is already dead, or I'm not logged in. And they'll know to find something else to do til I'm around (or til they find the corpse).

[stoicreader]

I like Delirium's idea pretty well, though my mind is boggling at how hard it would be to code. You'd need an outside helper API to pick up all the Way content and store it until a character logged on to retrieve it. What rules would be set around this? Could a mindworm sniff through the API or only intercept "live" Ways? How long would messages exist in the API before being purged? What happens when the character dies before messages are delivered?

Pretty fascinating to think about, actually, as a coding problem.

ETA: Cut out something that belonged in the other thread.

There is an easier workaround.

1. Allow people to idle without losing water or food. Or at a reduced rate. Krathstruck would be the command to go idle. While in the state you are hyper vulnerable to attack with stun reduced to 10 points and defense turned off. Quasi sleep. Like lucid dreaming.

2. Create a psi feedback echo that echos back, "Your way message went through but appears to have been sent slowly." (Or whatever)

With this method, leaders and minions can log on in their compound, walk away, go to bed, and check any messages in the morning.

This would put greater emphasis on the coded protection of clans vs independent groups.

So when a Senior Agent finds your mind and tells you that if you don't come within the next hour (RL 10 minutes), they'll consider you a deserter and hunt you down like a gortok...

you'll be okay with that, right?

Personally I'd rather they simply can't find my mind, and then they'll know that either my character is already dead, or I'm not logged in. And they'll know to find something else to do til I'm around (or til they find the corpse).

barrier up or log out.

[Brytta Léofa]

Currently if you log out with barrier up you'll return with barrier still up. Each offline contact attempt could require a barrier check for characters with barrier engaged. (Each contact attempt, so that one successful barrier piercing doesn't leave you vulnerable to contact for the whole next week while you're on vacation. Offline Amos' barrier isn't perfect, but he keeps turning it back on.)

You'd probably want to complicate things a little more than this so that two players working together couldn't determine whether someone else is online.

I think the offline psi idea is pretty fantastic for getting more play out of the players we have.

[Delirium]

Currently if you log out with barrier up you'll return with barrier still up. Each offline contact attempt could require a barrier check for characters with barrier engaged. (Each contact attempt, so that one successful barrier piercing doesn't leave you vulnerable to contact for the whole next week while you're on vacation. Offline Amos' barrier isn't perfect, but he keeps turning it back on.)

You'd probably want to complicate things a little more than this so that two players working together couldn't determine whether someone else is online.

I think the offline psi idea is pretty fantastic for getting more play out of the players we have.

Oh I like your barrier solution! Two thumbs up.

[Lizzie]

 It just makes it TOO easy to determine if someone is *not* dead, so soon after someone might be expecting that person to actually be dead. If you hire someone to murder Amos, and Amos logs out, and the assassin is also logged out, and you can way Amos, then you know that Amos is alive, before the assassin has a chance to tell you - or tell you otherwise. You eliminate the RP involved completely. Personally I say it's better that your character has to wonder about it for awhile. Continue to be paranoid for another few hours, or another day, until such time as you can meet up in-game, in person or via the way between you and the person who IS logged in, to find out if Amos is dead (or if Amos killed the assassin for that matter).

It's the Thanos situation in reverse.

[Brytta Léofa]

It just makes it TOO easy to determine if someone is *not* dead, so soon after someone might be expecting that person to actually be dead. If you hire someone to murder Amos, and Amos logs out, and the assassin is also logged out, and you can way Amos, then you know that Amos is alive, before the assassin has a chance to tell you - or tell you otherwise.

It should be easy to determine if someone is not dead using the Way. People have to log out so we play around the OOC reality, but it's rarely a benefit.

You can argue (and are arguing) that the highly inconsistent nature of Way communication (because people log out) keeps the Way from overpowering loads of face-to-face roleplay. But I disagree. I think that too much contact between PCs only very rarely puts a damper on roleplay (and there are in-character ways of blocking communication, starting with barrier, when that's needed). On the other hand, a lack communication between PCs stops roleplay before it can start.

Imagine if you could actually interact (via the Way, with a lag) with your Aussie/Kiwi clanmates on work nights. It brings the gameworld together in a way it should (by its own rules) be together.  I mean, we have telepathy.

[Akaramu]

I always thought it was weird and unrealistic that we had telepathy, but couldn't tell (sometimes for IC months or years) if someone close to us had died. Same thing with clans - they should notice an extended absence. We should know whether someone is around virtually or not.

[Armaddict]

It just makes it TOO easy to determine if someone is *not* dead, so soon after someone might be expecting that person to actually be dead. If you hire someone to murder Amos, and Amos logs out, and the assassin is also logged out, and you can way Amos, then you know that Amos is alive, before the assassin has a chance to tell you - or tell you otherwise. You eliminate the RP involved completely. Personally I say it's better that your character has to wonder about it for awhile. Continue to be paranoid for another few hours, or another day, until such time as you can meet up in-game, in person or via the way between you and the person who IS logged in, to find out if Amos is dead (or if Amos killed the assassin for that matter).

It's the Thanos situation in reverse.

While I agree, I think this is kind of an outdated part of what we're used to.  I agree that the difference between dead and offline should be discernible.  I don't agree that it should be just a simple easy thing or a notification.  But the only reason I don't agree on that point is based off of reading novels about the Way and how there is, in actuality, searching going on.  It's not a precision link until it's locked in.

If we could find something that balances between being able to find out, but not have it be instantly discernible, that'd be where I'd put my vote.

[Brytta Léofa]

Offline Way adds a new ambiguity: when you send someone a message and they don't respond, you don't know whether they're offline or refusing to answer. This would actually change the dynamics in some interesting ways.

[Lizzie]

An idea...

You can send a psi message to anyone, living or dead, by targetting the name they're known by, plus at least one keyword of their sdesc. Whether that person receives it or not will depend on whether or not that PC is alive. YOU won't know if they received it or not, until they acknowledge in-game that they received it (or someone else tells you in-game).

If the person is dead you'd get the exact same message you'd get if that person were alive.

The message you'd get upon contact on someone who is either a) dead, b) not logged in, c) has their barrier up and you fail to break through it:

You attempt to contact Amos.small with the Way.

You can then send your psi as usual.

Again - YOU, the person sending the message, would not receive any indication of whether or not the psi was received unless and until you are notified in-game by that person you sent it to (or their lackey or employee or mom etc. etc.).

This would also work if you're trying to contact someone who is unconscious, or on another elemental plane.

AND

The recipient would not actually receive the psi until their character is in a position to do so (perhaps with a toggle allowing them to review messages or opt-out).

[sleepyhead]

I really wish that you couldn't just contact someone by their name alone, but I'm afraid if that were the case you'd get even more sdesc-repeating nonsense than we already have (which is a lot.)

"If you're interested in a job, contact Amosa Kadius, who is known to be a rather thin, red-haired woman."

[Veselka]

This would all be ameliorated if contact were used to carry on a conversation (continuous PSI) while spooning messages could be sent into the ether with no guarantee of success or reply.

Barrier would block all one way psionic messages with greater efficacy.

Allow people to log out with barrier up. Downside is you can't check your voicemail. Plus side is you don't have to check your voicemail.

[Harmless]

An idea...

You can send a psi message to anyone, living or dead, by targetting the name they're known by, plus at least one keyword of their sdesc. Whether that person receives it or not will depend on whether or not that PC is alive. YOU won't know if they received it or not, until they acknowledge in-game that they received it (or someone else tells you in-game).

If the person is dead you'd get the exact same message you'd get if that person were alive.

The message you'd get upon contact on someone who is either a) dead, b) not logged in, c) has their barrier up and you fail to break through it:

You attempt to contact Amos.small with the Way.

You can then send your psi as usual.

Again - YOU, the person sending the message, would not receive any indication of whether or not the psi was received unless and until you are notified in-game by that person you sent it to (or their lackey or employee or mom etc. etc.).

This would also work if you're trying to contact someone who is unconscious, or on another elemental plane.

AND

The recipient would not actually receive the psi until their character is in a position to do so (perhaps with a toggle allowing them to review messages or opt-out).

It's funny, I was pondering a system of just shooting a Psi to someone without being in contact with them also without any feedback given for whether or not it's received. Something like this would be a fun new mechanic and definitely help us with non-overlapping playtimes in small 3-4 person crews/clans.

+1.

[Harmless]

This would all be ameliorated if contact were used to carry on a conversation (continuous PSI) while spooning messages could be sent into the ether with no guarantee of success or reply.

Barrier would block all one way psionic messages with greater efficacy.

Allow people to log out with barrier up. Downside is you can't check your voicemail. Plus side is you don't have to check your voicemail.

+1! if affected_barrier=true on login, the mud just deletes any pending messages for you and you never know if they were sent.

[RogueGunslinger]

Edited out

[Lizzie]

At the present time I'm having a lot of trouble drumming up any kind of empathy for off-peakers in their plight. I play at the start of peak time and in the past three RL months I've had trouble forwarding certain plots because I can't find the "powers that be" logged in during peak time. From what I've been given to understand, their usual play times are in the middle of the night, and at suppertime (my time).

Off-peak has become the new peak, and peak-time is bereft of leadership roles.

So forgive me if I don't add my name to the people demanding for more stuff to do off peak. Find your leaders - who ARE logged in, and get them to lead.

[roughneck]

At the present time I'm having a lot of trouble drumming up any kind of empathy for off-peakers in their plight. I play at the start of peak time and in the past three RL months I've had trouble forwarding certain plots because I can't find the "powers that be" logged in during peak time. From what I've been given to understand, their usual play times are in the middle of the night, and at suppertime (my time).

Off-peak has become the new peak, and peak-time is bereft of leadership roles.

So forgive me if I don't add my name to the people demanding for more stuff to do off peak. Find your leaders - who ARE logged in, and get them to lead.

'Peak' time does seem to be late AF for anyone not a night owl on CST time.

Bedtimes, people!

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Not really off topic, I'd like to mention here that in my experience, different leaders can do the same sorts of events in a much tighter time frame than others. I've had escorts and hunting/gathering expeditions that last anywhere from 2 hours (rl) to 5 hours (rl). I'm a big fan of 'git-r-done' so if I wanna go sleep I can.
I really like the shorter ones. For a ride or even an expedition into the desert, 5-6 hours is really long.

[valeria]

I don't think off peak players have the same challenges as casual players. Sure, sometimes it overlaps if you're a casual, offpeak player. But I think that otherwise, the challenges are pretty distinct.

Remembering back to my law school days, it was almost harder to be casual and on-peak because the peak players seem to be the ones that expect everyone to be around all the time always. So your work piles up at the same time that people assume you're either dead or riding the edge of storage.

[Brytta Léofa]

Not really off topic, I'd like to mention here that in my experience, different leaders can do the same sorts of events in a much tighter time frame than others. I've had escorts and hunting/gathering expeditions that last anywhere from 2 hours (rl) to 5 hours (rl). I'm a big fan of 'git-r-done' so if I wanna go sleep I can.
I really like the shorter ones. For a ride or even an expedition into the desert, 5-6 hours is really long.

This is a big deal. I've had a simple 1-on-1 meeting (I don't even remember what it was about; nothing momentous) take two RL hours. I'm a bit scared to join the Byn or any mission-heavy organization. I can easily commit to a scheduled 2-3 hour evening session most weeks, but I'm not gonna do the 5-6 hour thing more than once a quarter. I love the game and I love you guys; I just have some other stuff to do with my Whole Saturday.

Some of us, including me, could really stand to speed up the dang emoting. I'm sure that not playing while too tired, having a good feel for your character, and being in practice (I'm really rusty) help.

[Miradus]

Not really off topic, I'd like to mention here that in my experience, different leaders can do the same sorts of events in a much tighter time frame than others. I've had escorts and hunting/gathering expeditions that last anywhere from 2 hours (rl) to 5 hours (rl). I'm a big fan of 'git-r-done' so if I wanna go sleep I can.
I really like the shorter ones. For a ride or even an expedition into the desert, 5-6 hours is really long.

You tend to learn through exposure which leaders are fast movers who want to get things done, and which ones will draw out every scene into an hours long excruciating reality show with them as the star.

There's a big "awww shitttt" moment sometimes when you join a group IC and then get access to the clan forum and see who the leadership is in the role call. You often know right away whether or not you're going to have a great time, or a painful one.

There's several clans right now I'm "waiting out", watching the rumor boards in the taverns for signs of a murder or mysterious death so I can return to them and hopefully have a compatible playstyle with whomever their new leadership turns out to be.

[Brytta Léofa]

Some of my favorite players have been slow emoters, for what it's worth. It's just rough when you in a hurry.

[Veselka]

Not really off topic, I'd like to mention here that in my experience, different leaders can do the same sorts of events in a much tighter time frame than others. I've had escorts and hunting/gathering expeditions that last anywhere from 2 hours (rl) to 5 hours (rl). I'm a big fan of 'git-r-done' so if I wanna go sleep I can.
I really like the shorter ones. For a ride or even an expedition into the desert, 5-6 hours is really long.

You tend to learn through exposure which leaders are fast movers who want to get things done, and which ones will draw out every scene into an hours long excruciating reality show with them as the star.

There's a big "awww shitttt" moment sometimes when you join a group IC and then get access to the clan forum and see who the leadership is in the role call. You often know right away whether or not you're going to have a great time, or a painful one.

There's several clans right now I'm "waiting out", watching the rumor boards in the taverns for signs of a murder or mysterious death so I can return to them and hopefully have a compatible playstyle with whomever their new leadership turns out to be.

As one of those Leaders, I gleefully await both death and lardfully occupying the position.

[Veselka]

For my 666th post, I can contribute a bit.

As a casual player in a Leadership role, I try to check in with Staff often to make sure I'm fulfilling their expectations. I also delegate as much ICly makes sense. I tend to play stupid people who think they are guarding their secrets but probably not as well due to this delegation. They also tend to not act on rumor alone, preferring to take reports into advisement but not as verified truth until they come to that conclusion themselves. Rumors tend to turn simple things into overblown drama, particularly when it comes to intimate relationships, bleeding into the social zeitgeist of an area. I tend to avoid those plots like the plague, so in a leadership position, I tend to not reward rumor mongers attempting to push these plots to the foreground.

I tend to brush off questions of "where have you been" and "I thought you were dead". Leaders are busy people, and I don't think they should be available 24/7.

I play 6-8 hours a week, which I think is plenty.

[Miradus]

I don't know which clan you're in a leadership role of, so I can't speak to you specifically ...

HOWEVER, incompatible leadership is not the same as "bad" leadership. It simply means two playstyles are not compatible.

Same reason I tend to avoid particularly long-lived characters. I'm a risk taker. Let's go in this valley and see what's in there. What happens if I annoy this guy? What happens if I climb up this cliff? Long-lived characters usually don't like that sort of person around them and it's an OOC conflict which isn't great. (Sometimes it's great, not usually though.)

My favorite leaders are the ones who just sort of run around pulling at their hair at all the shenanigans their henchmen get into. "You told WHAT to Lord Templar??" "Why in the hell are you wearing a Borsail cloak in our compound when we're not Borsail?? Where did you get the cloak?"

Not a lot of leaders who let you get away with that sort of stuff for long. While I didn't work for either of these two directly, I interacted with them a lot ... and I'd say Lady Templar Bramalea Oash and Lord Jordyel Borsail both took the prize for letting events spiral way out of control before they'd step in.

I love things when they spiral way out of control.

[John]

Off-peak has become the new peak, and peak-time is bereft of leadership roles.

So forgive me if I don't add my name to the people demanding for more stuff to do off peak. Find your leaders - who ARE logged in, and get them to lead.

I can confirm this is accurate. I've seen (what looks to me) like a sudden influx of offpeakers in leadership (go aussies!). So indeed, find your fun. People are about.

[Eyeball]

This. INCLUDE EVERYONE. Even that clueless noob. Take risks. Do shit. Go out on adventures.

Risks for what? Where is the IC motivation?

There has to be something out there first. And even if you miraculously find some fabulous riches, there's nothing to spend it on. Money is useless past a certain point.

Dying to random NPC #4913308 or an arrow from a desert elf you never see gets old fast.

[Hauwke]

As does sitting away hidden interacting with the same 3 people every single day for an entire RL year.

There needs to be a happy medium between risk and not-risk.

[Harmless]

The new classes, with the greater variety and capability of skillsets, or the fact that classes will allow a pre-built blend of utility and combat skills, will definitely be enhance the capability to manage risk. The clearly delineated skill caps and branching info provided with the new classes will help people to predict when their character is "done" with the bulk of their training and be "ready" for risk.. as has already been said.

In other words, there are a lot of good changes already here that should encourage risk.

As for the REASON to take risks... this is a sandbox RPI mud. The players always had to be inventive for this, because yes, out in the wastes there is really nothing but death, death, and more death, and very little reward, seemingly. But, desert elves patrol their ranges to "protect territory," as does Kurac or His Arm, the most basic reason to get involved in some conflict at a low, steady level. Of course we kind of know as players that the patrol is unlikely to make much of a difference, but by braving them we gain status for our character, which leads to perks within our character's group. Other risks like exploration or treasure hunting are also hard to justify the risk for, but that is why Highborn exist, to impress with the unusual or rare.

I don't have anything new to provide but I think we do have lots of new changes in classes that are meant to encourage risk and we should now give these a whirl and see if people are more willing to take some risks with their new skillsets. I know I would be.. training a ranger or assassin was a painful process (primarily to branch parry, UGH) and those two guilds were the only ones with survival skills and combat skills at a decent cap. Now I have at least four good options for such roles, if not twenty or so different combinations I want to try with the subclasses I still have scratched the surface of.. RPI sandbox with new sandbox tools.

[triste]

Casting 'mon un necro thread' here because I like how this thread opens by citing all the similar threads before, and this thread seems to be the most recent on the topic.

I agree the new subguilds were something that improved the game for casual players, but I find it interesting that the features casual players have asked for for years, like offline/async messaging, have never seen the light of day. And I just wanted to speak up again in favor of this and other ideas as I sit in low play time casual player hell.

Edited to be 20% as long and less whiney.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Casting 'mon un necro thread' here because I like how this thread opens by citing all the similar threads before, and this thread seems to be the most recent on the topic.

I agree the new subguilds were something that improved the game for casual players, but I find it interesting that the features casual players have asked for for years, like offline/async messaging, have never seen the light of day. And I just wanted to speak up again in favor of this and other ideas as I sit in low play time casual player hell.

Edited to be 20% as long and less whiney.

Play a crafter character with some combat specialty in an iso-clan. They very likely have chests full of raw materials, they'll love you for the little gifts you leave them, You can communicate big important things via the clan forum, and You are strong enough to get the ingredients you don't have without too much hassle. I lived in Okinawa for two years and Iso roles were my jam.

Literally no one will fight you for expanding the clan crafts as well. Even if it's something dumb, like a t-shirt painted up in Oashi colors.