Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?

[Is Friday]

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender.

Does your steak taste better because poor people can't afford it, too?

[BadSkeelz]

Personally I think we should just make the Extended Subguilds the new Regular Subguilds, whether immediately or when the new Classes go in to general release. They really are just a straight upgrade and I don't even consider taking an old mundane subguild anymore. They're the most blatant example of karma conferring advantage. I mean, you could say Magick and stuff do that too, but I think there's more Goodies locked away behind the (Mundane) Extended Subguilds. Ranger/Rogues played ruthlessly scare the hell out of me way more than oldskool Sorcerers, nevermind our current foes. And being able to Mastercraft is a real treat for those dedicated to it.

I'd also suggest not trying to play Armageddon as a karma-accruing game. You'll have more fun if you play characters you enjoy and worry less about the shallow code. As long as you roll good stats and have way too much time to invest in skilling up, even a zero-karma character can be codedly good.

[Lizzie]

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender.

Does your steak taste better because poor people can't afford it, too?

Does attacking me because I have a contrary opinion feel better than an opinion of your own about the actual topic?

Meanwhile, back on topic:

If the game had a skill point allocation system instead of karma acquisition, we wouldn't need to worry about any of this. It wouldn't be an issue at all. The only characters that would require special permission to play, are the roles that already currently require special permission to play: sponsored roles, psionicists, and sorcerers.

Anyone would be able to have any skill on their skills list, as long as they use their point allocation wisely. They wouldn't be good at some of them, but they'd all have at least the ability to codedly try anything as long as they choose to include it on their skills list. And because they only get a maximum number of points to allocate, they will have to choose: do I want to be a master armorsmith, or do I want to be a fairly decent all-around crafter? Do I want to be a master assassin, or do I just want to be "good" at combat in general and also be capable of using the SAP and backstab skills with at least some measure of success? Do I want to be a super-duper rangerly explorer with the absolute best scouting skills in the entire world, ever? Or do I want to be a generic ranger, who can also make the finest arrows known to sentient beings? Or maybe I want to make decent - but not awesome arrows, AND crochet doilies like a boss. And at least get a LITTLE bit of leeway at the merchant shops when I ask the NPCs for lower prices.

With a point allocation system you could do all that. Pick a template, get your defaults. Add other skills and skill-bumps as needed, until you run out of those extra points you get during chargen.

[Malken]

With how long it takes to revamp the guild system, do you really think that the game will ever have a point system? Work with what you have and keep it extra simple if you ever want your changes to be implemented.

[Nao]

Karma accumulation should be automatic on days played.  If there are concerns about abuse or poor RP staff hand out a karma cap for a period of time, like they might a ban.

I think people would idle a lot more just to get their time played up. But I don't see why this has to be automatic. The first point (usually longevity) is meant to be easy to earn, and should really not require much besides a quick look over a player's acconut notes/character history. Karma reviews of accounts with 1 karma and upwards? I assume these are a lot more work, because things like "good communication", "understanding of racial structures" are a lot harder to verify than time played.

I don't understand the sentiment of "if I can't have it, nobody should have it", either. Your "thing" is a lot more effort than someone else's "thing", they aren't equivalent.

[MarshallDFX]

It's about changing the onus.  "Spends almost all the time idling.  Capping at 1 karma until September.". On everything else, it's fair enough, just too often people will fall through the cracks.  The real reason is that it's easier to dole out rewards than punishment.  But we end up here.  So I think we should start with the presumption people will kill it if given a chance to play a challenging role.

So saying this, maybe the answer is to make all 3 karma roles role calls or special apps

[Delirium]

It's about changing the onus.  "Spends almost all the time idling.  Capping at 1 karma until September.".

No. Never set up a system where you punish people for playing the game, even if they're not currently paying attention. They're still there, available, and likely will come to life as soon as someone reaches out to or interacts with them.

[MarshallDFX]

It's about changing the onus.  "Spends almost all the time idling.  Capping at 1 karma until September.".

No. Never set up a system where you punish people for playing the game, even if they're not currently paying attention. They're still there, available, and likely will come to life as soon as someone reaches out to or interacts with them.

Actually you're completely right.  I should have stuck to my guns.  I don't care if people idle to get karma.

If there is a problem make them special app only.

[Lizzie]

Karma accumulation should be automatic on days played.  If there are concerns about abuse or poor RP staff hand out a karma cap for a period of time, like they might a ban.

I think people would idle a lot more just to get their time played up. But I don't see why this has to be automatic. The first point (usually longevity) is meant to be easy to earn, and should really not require much besides a quick look over a player's acconut notes/character history. Karma reviews of accounts with 1 karma and upwards? I assume these are a lot more work, because things like "good communication", "understanding of racial structures" are a lot harder to verify than time played.

I don't understand the sentiment of "if I can't have it, nobody should have it", either. Your "thing" is a lot more effort than someone else's "thing", they aren't equivalent.

The "it" you're referring to isn't another point of karma. It's being allowed to ASK for a karma review. There is absolutely no more effort on the part of the staff involved if everyone is allowed to ASK for a review, compared to only new players being allowed to ask for a review. Currently, no one is allowed to ask for a review. Anyone who doesn't already have 3 karma, is eligible for the staff to award them another point of karma, though the players aren't allowed to request that the staff consider it.

The OP is suggesting that new players should be allowed to request that the staff look into it, while the rest of the player base continue to not be allowed to request that the staff look into it.

I (and others) feel this isn't a good idea. Yes, we need to keep new players. But we also need to keep whatever veterans we already have. MANY of us took a hit on karma-required options during the karma revamp, and some of us are still here.

[frankjacoby]

IMHO, Karma is a weapon that has been abused from the beginning and has caused a LOOOOOT of people to leave, for good or ilk.  Personally, I am leaning more towards the ilk, you can't institute a practice where some people just can't attain it because you decided not to pay attention to them.  In addition, you are forcing someone to play a role the way YOU want them to play the role and to heck with their interpretation of it.  Personally, I'd like to see it be less subjective and more objective, ie, the person is NOT abusing and playing badly, therefore they should get Karma.

[Harmless]

I am lucky not to have to worry about the fact that karma reviews are paused, because I am happy with my karma level. Having been in the position of being unhappy with my karma level, oh, say 8 years ago, I empathize with those who are frustrated that they are sitting at 0 karma.

1 karma is a decent level of karma to have. Trust me, from experience; special apping a 3 karma role is challenging, unless you have either been accepted for such a role before, or you are experienced in multiple 2 karma or other similar high responsibility roles (regardles of karma). If you have 1 karma you have access to most of the variety of Zalanthas that will let you learn multiple facets of the game.

I'm fine with the OP's suggestion that 0 karma players have the ability to point out to staff that in their opinion, they merit a karma review. I'm fine with being unable to request a karma review because I am lucky to have been here for pretty much a decade now.

[Armaddict]

Trust me, from experience; special apping a 3 karma role is challenging, unless you have either been accepted for such a role before, or you are experienced in multiple 2 karma or other similar high responsibility roles (regardles of karma).

This would be the easiest thing to change, honestly.  Sorry, even with a spotty record, I had very little trouble trying out high-karma roles, insofar as it didn't become my 'go-to' thing to do.  Special applications shouldn't be hard to achieve, they maintain the bottleneck of population while also keeping low-karma players completely able to play high-karma roles.

There's almost no reason, in my head, for high-karma roles to be easily accessible via chargen alone.

[nauta]

I think karma review should be turned on, even while things are being sorted.  Absent that, please update the help file.  I've highlighted the line to remove from >help karma:

ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more complicated, powerful and RP challenging roles to players. Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player's:

Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced by playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to show that they are really involved in the game world, and also enriching the game world for other players.
Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain a karma point. No more than one karma point can be awarded in any one category area.

Categories:
Longevity
Good communication
Ability to roleplay
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
Contributes to the game
Leadership
Players may request a karma review every twelve months. A Karma Review request will automatically have staff assessing your account against the karma criteria. Staff may also award (or remove) karma at their own discretion outside of Karma Review requests.

Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of role-playing your character should be the primary reward in itself. Most players will find that they do not progress past the three or four karma point range.

Karma is a totally out of character (OOC) concept, and should have no bearing whatsoever on what happens in the game.

Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff members; those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining karma is not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have a case to make about why you should be allowed to play a race or guild that you do not have karma for you may submit a special application through the request tool. See 'help special applications' for more information, and if you want to see which options are available at which level, see 'help karma options'.

[Lizzie]

Trust me, from experience; special apping a 3 karma role is challenging, unless you have either been accepted for such a role before, or you are experienced in multiple 2 karma or other similar high responsibility roles (regardles of karma).

This would be the easiest thing to change, honestly.  Sorry, even with a spotty record, I had very little trouble trying out high-karma roles, insofar as it didn't become my 'go-to' thing to do.  Special applications shouldn't be hard to achieve, they maintain the bottleneck of population while also keeping low-karma players completely able to play high-karma roles.

There's almost no reason, in my head, for high-karma roles to be easily accessible via chargen alone.

I agree. But conversely, I feel that some high-karma roles should not be accessible at all via chargen and ONLY be accessible via special application or sponsored role. Which is how it is now, except that you're basically locked out of those options if you have less than max-karma, because those options are beyond the karma list, and you are required to have 3 karma points in order to submit a special application for them.

[Harmless]

There's almost no reason, in my head, for high-karma roles to be easily accessible via chargen alone.

Agreed.

[frankjacoby]

I think karma review should be turned on, even while things are being sorted.  Absent that, please update the help file.  I've highlighted the line to remove from >help karma:

Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff members; those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining karma is not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have a case to make about why you should be allowed to play a race or guild that you do not have karma for you may submit a special application through the request tool. See 'help special applications' for more information, and if you want to see which options are available at which level, see 'help karma options'.

That is part of what turns me off right there, this leaves no leeway whatsoever, it's a version of my way or the highway which ends up with a group of people who think the way 'they' do ALL the time and does not leave room for people who may think outside the box.  In other words, only 10 people fit that little niche, so player level is capped at 10 and the rest feeling disgruntled or leave altogether.  Instead of making Karma something that is used as a hatchet to cut at a player's legs, why not have it as a means to stop bad and abusive play.  Just my $0.02 here, but I think that now you revamped the game ic'ly why not revamp the 'Karma experience' ooc'ly?

[Zombie]

I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com

Since the two replies you received to this post were dismissive of your feelings, or simply sought to prove you wrong, allow me to present something rarely seen on the GDB: empathy and perspective.

Far, far too many people give bad things a chance. Your sideways relationship with Armageddon doesn't even scrape the surface of such bad things. After all, in the real world, people make bad choices, too. Significant others stick with abusers. Addicts sink into the trap of being willing to do anything for drugs. So let's not pretend that Armageddon is somehow as important or more important than actual, life-threatening situations that people get into, and yet somehow, cannot get themselves out of.

Armageddon, by comparison, is an easy thing to walk away from. It should be something people walk away from, when they're dissatisfied with it. I am glad you're deciding to walk away. It's something more people should do. After all, Armageddon is a game. If you're not having fun, leave. Chances are your life will improve massively. You suddenly have one less bad thing to be worried about.

Instead of getting addicted to Armageddon, focus on raising your son. I'm sure he'll remember you well for it.

[frankjacoby]

New System:

After 1 month, all players get one karma.

After one more month, all players get another karma. This continues with a cap of 3 total for each player for each month. Karma expenditure will drop the karma down to whatever the current level would be. Staff has a cap on how many non-mundanes of each type can be in the game, I dunno if this is really a good thing, as a gemmed witch I would have killed to have more witches to talk to.

Code will be in place if staff have determined that someone can't be trusted with a certain karma cap.

You know, like in the old days, before I started playing. Everyone was playing Shadowwalkers or some junk. I really miss a particular type of witch I used to be able to play, and it was actually not that useful to go on mass killings with, so I wasn't really sure it should have been high karma.

Man, but you guys sure miss the other witches. I guess I do too, even though I wasn't 2 karma long enough to do much with them.

I think you have the facts wrong about Karma, I have yet to see the other point and I have been around for 5 years and had a character last for 18 months RL and I had to do a karma review to get a second Karma point, mind you this is under the old system.  Now, I am at 1 on the new scale and I doubt I will see a second, so, I ask, how is it possible to get a second after 2 months RL?

[frankjacoby]

I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com

Sorry to hear about all this, I might be right behind you as I don't see any changes on the horizon.

[sleepyhead]

It seems like my post is causing people to quit, consider quitting, or encourage each other to quit, which was...exactly the opposite of my intention. It's kind of making me feel meh on the whole subject, now.

[frankjacoby]

It seems like my post is causing people to quit, consider quitting, or encourage each other to quit, which was...exactly the opposite of my intention. It's kind of making me feel meh on the whole subject, now.

if you're not feeling like quitting, then you don't care about the game, imo.  There are lots of games that I have played, I quit those because of only one reason, that reason is because I don't see any progress being made. However, progress for the same of progress is not progress, progress that matters to the players is what I am speaking about.  Frustration is another reason of course, I am not saying that staff is to blame, a lot of discontent is due to the overall atmosphere of other players ic'ly and the general malaise that permeates the gdb on a whole.  I have not spent much time on the gdb and only recently began posting.  Will I quit tomorrow?  I don't know, will I quit after the upcoming changes?  I don't know, it all depends on how things are handled overall, not just something to appease me or maybe 1 or 2 random people.  I am not that selfish to say that it's all about me, I would like to see the game change for the better and who knows, maybe the upcoming changes may be the catalyst.  You still have to address the players that left and no you can't just say that they don't matter because they are already gone.  I think listening to ALL concerns is the way to go and I hope that all points will be addressed and ARM can begin a much needed healing process.

With all that being said, Karma is the main antagonist.

[stoicreader]

It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

Instead of getting addicted to Armageddon, focus on raising your son. I'm sure he'll remember you well for it.

THANK YOU for the recognition Zombie. First post too?

BTW

Piranha is a fish in the Amazon that uses teamwork to eat people. I meant pariah, which is an outcast from a Indian class of the untouchables caste.

If a good player, who doesn't break the rules, feels like a pariah in your extremely niche internet game... You're not making them feel welcome or included. Especially when it seems like 99% of the people I play with are 10+ year vets of the game.

I feel excluded and segregated and unwelcome. This is 100% because some people get to play krathi, Templars, HG, etc and I don't. The fact that they have trust and I don't makes me feel like this playground is only for the big kids.

Let me say that again. Many of your new players, once the syntax is figured out, feel excluded and unwelcome because of your policy. Yes it's a free game, so is chess at the park. But if the other chess players get to play with a full set of pieces and you don't, with no possibility of ever playing with a full set, because your the new person... You'll just go play chess with someone else.

I admit there is some degree of addiction, because I feel sad about giving it up. But this afternoon my son sat on my lap eating raspberries from the tips  of his tiny little fingers, looked up into my eyes, and said "I love you". My heart swelled with joy as my eyes glazed over with tears.

I can feel excluded and unwelcome trying to play a game... Or... I can have the love of my life cuddle with me in bed.

Games are supposed to add to your life... this just... Doesn't.

[Lizzie]

I'm unclear about something here. Some people who are leaving, theoretically, are new players who are upset about changes that happened before they ever started playing.

This means they started playing, knowing that the game is how it is, post-change. They chose to play the game as advertised. So how is it that they're upset because the game is different? It's exactly how it was when they started playing, which wasn't long ago, because these are "new players" we're talking about here.

If they're new, they never experienced the game before the changes were made. In fact, new changes are coming, which will EXPAND their options, even if the karma system doesn't change at all. They will soon have more options when they did when they started playing. Why then would they leave? They couldn't submit a karma review when they started playing, nothing has changed on that end. Nothing has been taken away from them. At all.

The only thing I'm seeing here, is that players are threatening to quit because a couple of players suggested something that a couple of other players liked, and a couple of -other- players didn't like, and staff hasn't chimed in with any official response about one way or another.

I'm sensing new players aren't quitting over the karma issue at all, because nothing has changed with regards to the karma system since any new players started playing.

[stoicreader]

Sure America is a free country but some folks are priveliged and others are not. Yea, it's a free game but why do you get to play with a full deck of cards and I don't?

We're both, I'm assuming, responsible women. Why is it that I'm not entitled with the same opportunities you had? You used to be able to ask for Karma, and got it. I never had that opportunity.

You're like a fish unto water if you can't imagine a new player's feeling of discrimination. You should know what discrimination feels like... Why are you so unwelcoming?

There is policy that locks me into options not as robust as your entitlements. You feel like you earned those entitlements? I'm confused why you're being so dismissive and rude. You don't want me playing with you in your super niche videogame?

[azuriolinist]

if you're not feeling like quitting, then you don't care about the game, imo.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes sense.

The opposite has to be true for a lot of people. Why would a player quit if they do care?

I have seen staff introduce changes to address players' concerns. I've also seen changes a lot of players did not agree with. That doesn't mean there hasn't been progress made. That doesn't mean the people who continue playing and contributing don't care for the game.

Besides that, let's focus on discussing karma reviews, as this thread was intended for. I agree that the way karma is structured now is flawed. There's an urge to take on a reward mindset when you 'unlock' roles through karma, and are otherwise completely barred from taking such roles up (besides taking them on through special applications). That is, unless you happen to catch staff's attention. It's no wonder we have new players -- and not just the new -- wanting for karma.

I'm all in agreement for opening up karma reviews for players with no karma. The regen system may not be operational, yet, but Zalanthas won't crumble with a bunch of one karma roles apping in. That's how it's worked before. Someone whom staff grants one karma for should be able to be trusted, either way.