Concerning Wagons

[WithSprinkles]

The other post about people falling into holes made me thing about certain things concerning these structures. My two sids is that their operation/make could be looked at a little.

They are expensive to replace when they take a swan dive into canyons and while this generates interest for a while ICly, it  can be avoided by having seasoned veterans driving them who know the lay of the land. This cannot always happen though, and newbies can learn to handle them when properly taught. Here are a few factors that I have experienced that come into play.

- The pilot skill has failures (If you are letting someone drive your wagon in the desert who has a chance of going EAST instead of NORTH, THAT IS YOUR OWN FAULT, so this is working as intended. It is possible to train in a safer environment).

- The cockpits of wagons I have been in do NOT have panoramic views. I have taken trusted people up and shown them what I see so that they understand the limited vision and explain why I ask for communication and detail when in there. YOU CAN ONLY SEE THE ROOM YOU ARE CURRENTLY IN, so if your WATCH skill isn't up to par and your escort is IMPATIENT (wagons are slow) and rides ahead without giving you a direction call, you have to ask where the hell they went.

- In the dark, people guide these behemoths through the city streets with lanterns, walking room by room.

-  There is no depth of vision. (The person driving relies on people to let them know if there is a dune or creature or CHASM up ahead because they LITERALLY CANNOT see the first two. There was an effort by staff recently to include holes in room descriptions and with highlights that helps immensely, still it is a thing when you are keeping up with your escort)

Nothing really replaces someone exploring and learning the world on their own and finding out the paths through the wilderness. I'm just saying these conveyances are a different sort of thing. Some of them don't even fit into some well-traveled paths, which causes last minute hilarity.

My suggestions -
-Panoramic view so that the pilot can look N, E and W depending on he make of the wagon - some have crow's nests
-Depth of vision to at LEAST the adjoining room
-The ability to CARAVAN behind another wagon WITH the save code attached so we don't lose several wagons at once in a fall.
-When a wagon rumbles along the ground, the echoes of that change with the terrain as a warning when the roads are bad. Maybe room echoes when the path gets tight.
-If we wanted to get really fancy, attach some lanterns to the outside so that they cast a circle of light that can be extinguished by people clanned to whoever the wagon belongs to. Perhaps only the large conveyances and only if they get refilled and maintained like a normal lantern.

[Riev]

There's only what, like 3 left in game?

We'll crash those too. Then no more problems, right?

+1 for panoramic views. I don't know how you'd code for "can't look behind you".

[WithSprinkles]

(laughs) Well, crashing them is one option! It would be sad to see them go though, so I hope that doesn't come to pass.

When you look behind you, you'd be looking at the door to the cabin. In front of you is like looking OUT of a window. I'd have to look at a log to be sure and I don't want to do that just now.

Views to each appropriate side are my suggestion. While the high vantage point would promote further distance views, I personally think they would be distracting for the driver (and there should be a challenge and need for an escort), so I suggest that only NEAR views be available. Currently when a pilot looks out, they only see the room just outside. I don't know how it would be possible to extend the view, but it would be helpful, if only to locate your escort if separated.

Don't even get me started if the conveyance gets attacked and you suddenly find yourself in a reenactment of 'Fury Road'. That's when shit gets crazy.

I haven't had the opportunity to play with a skimmer yet, so someone who has would have to say if any of this applies to them.

[Molten Heart]

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[cnemus]

I believe the current system encourages group travel with wagons, clear communication, and skilled operators. I feel all these things are important and good for the game. While yes, allowing a pilot to 'look direction' would make it safer and easier, I don't always know that safer and easier should be the goal. As far I understand, we want moving a wagon between safe locations to be dangerous and risky.

I feel that merchants make insane amounts of money. I want them to have risk associated with their profits. They usually mitigate that risk by throwing sid at other characters, which is good for the economy.

[Grapes]

I may be way behind the times here, but last I heard the "wagon-making" skillset, just made spokes, hubs and axles. To actually construct a full wagon you need staff support, and you actually have to go through the motions and aquire an insane amount of material... probably more than you're going to be able to fit in your apartment (at least, without Nenyuk chucking it out the window), and definitely more than you're going to be able to protect from shifty elves...

... unless you're a GMH. It's still an ordeal even then, to my understanding... I wouldn't say, unreasonably so, given the lack of certain materials and/or tools we take for granted these days, I will, however, that I've heard of enough crashed wagons to think I was playing a Dukes of Hazard simulator at times.

[Veselka]

Or, crash all the wagons and make hitchable carts as an alternative.

[CodeMaster]

Maybe what you guys are asking for is a "look outside <dir>" command that would show you one room in that direction.

My two cents: wagons should be constrained to roads.  And then I think powerful characters would be incentivized to fund roadbuilding projects, and/or projects that change existing roads so they steer clear of thirty foot drops.

[KankWhisperer]

It's like someone should have built markers so the wagons will know where to turn once they know the route that avoids chasms or something.

[WithSprinkles]

It's like someone should have built markers so the wagons will know where to turn once they know the route that avoids chasms or something.

Heh, don't get me started about markers. Picture me as a high-pitched version of Foamy the Squirrel with a soft Jersey accent nattering on about it. I am of the belief that lesser forged pathways should be sparsely marked, but well established trade routes (the most traveled ones between Allanak and Luirs and from Luirs to Tuluk) should have more. I know this is probably a player initiative thing that maybe could be corrected if 'collective' we make an effort in game, though, so there is not much more to be said but to try for it and see what happens.

Thank you for the overview about skimmers, Molten Heart. I hope someday I get to see one IG. Having many types of conveyances made available (wagons, carts, skimmers, and hybrids) seems like a very appealing option. And yeah, CodeMaster, LOOK OUT <dir> would work just fine and only to the adjacent room to keep it being too OP. It doesn't eliminate the need for an escort by any means, but it does give more nearby chasm or pit information AND helps the driver navigate around a dune in a chase.

Once you have had gith try to burn your wagon down around you and you really CAN'T stay still, but you don't know what is all around you and your escort is kind of occupied with.. gith and all THAT entails.. the request for adjacent room sight will become crystal clear. It's not exactly asking for more ease, just more sense, in my mind at least. It doesn't even have to happen OMG now, just putting these ideas on the table for consideration and I'm happy for the helpful replies.

[deskoft]

I don't see any troubles with the current system at all. You just need to communicate with whomever is outside. And room descriptions are self-explanatory most of the times (all of the times?).

[KankWhisperer]

Following the markers and landmarks gate to gate, it's about seven rooms on average between one and the next. I think that's plenty without making escorts pointless. Personally I think anyone who has played an outdoorsy characters who has traveled them would have no issue following them if their next character was a wagon pilot..

The current incarnation of the markers was either moved or built by players. Each one was a lot of rock collecting and a mini-gith war. Nothing, as far as I know, is stopping other people from building more, if they have the resources.

As for roads? My personal estimate is that it would require something on the order of one billion tons of stone to complete such a road across the Red Desert. (if you took the shortest possible route)

[Veselka]

Thank you KW. I love them cairns.

I do agree with WS, that the room descriptions could reflect the amount of travel that route sees. But then again it's the desert not medieval Europe where tracks and paths sort of stick around.

[WithSprinkles]

I agree that the cairns out there are very well placed. I simply suggest a few more, but I can let that point go. I do agree that this is a player initiative, so if players decide to devote attention to it IG, it will or will not happen. Just sort of my musings on it.

After looking over everyone's impressions in this thread and the other one, I kind of get the gist of how people feel about how the world should have a certain 'atmosphere', so a 'good' road is not the best option. That and the resources as was brought up, would be a massive undertaking. I still do lean toward echoes for the wagon rumbles that suggest when the pilot is on a somewhat decent path.

I still say that having a better field of vision is a good idea. Escorts will ALWAYS be necessary and anyone venturing out into the wilderness with an expensive wagon alone to risk it to theft/creatures/whatever.. it's not good. Plus it is just good to involve other people, even for 'simple' tasks like this.

I will also attach something of a theory here. It may or may not be true, but it is about player demographics of people that handle wagons. I know that most players here are vets and have had many MANY types of characters, but are the players that tend to end up at the helm of wagons usually the ones that often choose to be out exploring the wilderness? We all play differently and that is a good thing, but it puts us at different familiarity levels.

I'll put forth a tiny bit of my own experience. I was helming a wagon on my first character and had NO REAL IDEA how to navigate the sands. (yeah, yeah, I know how that initially played out, but I got better) I absolutely needed an escort. Eventually I learned enough to be able to limp to the nearest major point if I was close enough to it, but that took time. Not everyone has a strong wilderness background and.. yeah, there is a chance that the player is going to end wheels up in a hole.

I think it would be kind to at least give players the ability to see out of large vehicles at the helm. The markers.. eh. If that doesn't happen, that's fine. But better sight would be beneficial because it would also keep the person driving from having to stop to Way (if they don't have a Waying co-pilot) if they lose sight on a WATCH. They can just look out and find them.