Armageddon and beyond

[frankjacoby]

At the risk of being flamed and possibly ostracized, it is with great trepidation that I make this post.

I think the veil of secrecy about how classes function has been long pierced with the advent of the internet and various shadow groups that exist.  I believe to keep pushing this idea is detrimental to new players as they stumble about and quit because they are not privy to things as the veterans are.  In order to be relevant, the game needs to grow and frustrating new players and alienating older players is not the way to go, IMHO of course.  I guess challenging the status quo and going against the grain is the reason why I will never ascend to the upper echelons of this game, but at least I remain unique and I pride myself on it.  I believe however that people who think contrary to the 'norm' are necessary for growth as obviously, people from other backgrounds who choose to play can also be rewarded with the great content and potential that this game has.  Not knocking the efforts and ideas of those that have put in the great work and time, in fact I applaud the efforts, but there are lots of people who believe that change for the sake of change does not equal progress. 

My humble $0.02

[Akariel]

The rules about not talking about game mechanics, specifically the mechanics of magickers, is an effort to make the game more interesting and fun for those who don't know about those designs. When you tell people 'Oh, X can do Y' it ruins the surprise and excitement when they get to find that out (possibly first hand) in game. No one on staff or otherwise is going to get angry at telling a new player how to use functions like sit, stand, talk, say, tell, ect. What becomes a problem is when people start talking about stuff that -wouldn't- be common knowledge to a normal character in the game world. (Oh, yeah, that place was destroyed by X Y and Z and it was super cool, here's all the plot details. Also don't go there anymore because it'll hurt you.)

As for those who associate with internet cultures who have actively tried to harm the game, I would highly suggest not doing so. It has been seen time and time again that internet groups that are not owned by Armageddon MUD, but are still focused on us and our community are toxic for the enjoyment of the game. Saying that these communities existence necessitates the removal of rules such as the 'don't share IC sekrits' rule is akin to saying that, because someone sat in the back of the theatre and recorded the new Avenger's movie with their 360p camcorder, the spoilers should be shared with every single person you come across.

[Riev]

In order to fix a problem, you have to first admit there is one.

Staff are very reluctant to admit failure or incorrect paths because, the way I see it, StaffWorld is Tuluk. They must always be in control. Reserved. Proper. They are always correct. There was never a thing such as a Hlum noble. The Jihaens and Lirathans have always been brought up in the same way. We have always been at war with Oceania, etc.

I think it is necessary, to a point, for them to remain as infallible beings. Because if they make a mistake, they have hundreds of people calling their name and ridiculing them, for a mistake the made in a niche text-based world shared with less than 1000 total users world wide.

On the other side though, a producer can kill half a dozen PCs due to poor planning, get demoted as a show, only to return as producer within 6 months wherein he changes the attitude and direction of the game overall. The staff have to be seen as having one mind, because if they aren't on the same page, they will not get the same support from their Admins and producers as they would otherwise.

There will, of course, be rampant discussion about how that isn't true, and sycophants looking for a point of karma so they can play a watered-down water-witch, but I for one do agree. There is great potential in this game, or there used to be. In efforts to make it "more fair" for the players, it has been made fair only for veterans or newbies that catch the eye of a staffer.

[frankjacoby]

The rules about not talking about game mechanics, specifically the mechanics of magickers, is an effort to make the game more interesting and fun for those who don't know about those designs. When you tell people 'Oh, X can do Y' it ruins the surprise and excitement when they get to find that out (possibly first hand) in game. No one on staff or otherwise is going to get angry at telling a new player how to use functions like sit, stand, talk, say, tell, ect. What becomes a problem is when people start talking about stuff that -wouldn't- be common knowledge to a normal character in the game world. (Oh, yeah, that place was destroyed by X Y and Z and it was super cool, here's all the plot details. Also don't go there anymore because it'll hurt you.)

As for those who associate with internet cultures who have actively tried to harm the game, I would highly suggest not doing so. It has been seen time and time again that internet groups that are not owned by Armageddon MUD, but are still focused on us and our community are toxic for the enjoyment of the game. Saying that these communities existence necessitates the removal of rules such as the 'don't share IC sekrits' rule is akin to saying that, because someone sat in the back of the theatre and recorded the new Avenger's movie with their 360p camcorder, the spoilers should be shared with every single person you come across.

I absolutely abhor people spilling secrets, however, the mechanics behind being a magicker is not IC, it's all knowledge that you can RP having but to keep all this hidden from people who are interested in the game seems detrimental to me.  Again, noone is advocating secrets, but when it's common knowledge ie the words and things that classes are capable of YET, you keep that knowledge from potential players, it's not a good practice.

[Riev]

In terms of magick, that is a tough call. If everyone KNOWS that Destruction Krathi gets Fireball and ... I don't know. Disintegrate.... then you know exactly what the person is capable of, OOCly, because you know you saw them throw a fireball one time. If everyone knows the spell lists and what the magickers are CAPABLE of doing, it leads into magick not being as scary and wondrous.

On the other hand? I don't want to pick a Guile Krathi hoping I get "that one spell" and it turns out only Touched gets it, or something.

Maybe even just posting the first 4 spells every Magicker branch GETS so you know what you're getting into, beforehand? I mean, that's the ultimate in guild sniffing, but a new player isn't playing a magicker anytime soon, either.

Are there examples, maybe, of where this is done OUTSIDE of a karma-restricted role, considering karma is in a non-functional place for the past year anyway?

[Brokkr]

but when it's common knowledge ie the words and things that classes are capable of

• By words do you mean the words for the spells?  If so, you are behind the times.  "help symbol"
• Maybe you haven't been following the discussions on the new classes, but all their skills and what levels they max at will be listed in their helpfiles, as has been publically stated.  Multiple times.
• All the subguild help files outside of the magicker ones list which skills they get and what the maximum level for those skills are.

As all of these are in the last 2 years or so, there is obviously a directional bent to this.  Magicker subguilds are the only ones that when looking to the future will likely remain without skills listed, due to some of the concerns Riev listed, among others.

[MarshallDFX]

First of all, the impression of secrecy puts me off too.  I hate it.  I think publishing a players handbook doesn't spoil d&d, and any other approach to mechanic transparency is deluded.

That said, in particular relating to the general angst in your post (angst I've felt), for me I'm beginning to think it's just much ado about nothing.  These days I've pledged just to do whatever strikes me as reasonable IG and OOC within the spirit of the game and understanding of the rules.  If I want to spamtwink I spamtwink.  I also try and remember that's not why I'm playing Arm.  If somebody asks what slashing branches in discord I tell them.  It's razors.

And you know?  To date I have not been punished.  And until I get corrected, I will presume myself sufficiently consistent with the spirit of the game.  The hard and fast rules (eg consent) are not hard to be within.

I recognize others have had very different staff experiences at different times.  I'm a Johnny come lately and don't play much.  Maybe I'm totally wrong about all this.

But my advice?  Just as you said:  Do what feels right; play the way you want to play.  Think about the spirit of the game we are trying to enjoy.  If you are feeling concerned about the way things are perceived.. reality may surprise you.

[KankWhisperer]

Just list what the mundane main guilds get like the subguilds are listed.

Even better why do we have branching? What's the point of forcing you to train something you may or may not care about to get your class's full utility.

I can see maybe leaving it in for spells, psionics, and crafting. Otherwise just let people practice whatever without having to grind something up first.

[MarshallDFX]

Even better why do we have branching?

I'm ambivalent here.  I see your point but it's fairly common to get new skills when you level up.  I just like to know what they are.

[frankjacoby]

Absolutely, you see the highest levels of abuse when someone doesn't know what they get, so they twink to see what comes next.  If they are already aware, the curiosity element is gone, the need to suicide after 20 days played to get a character that fits what they want to do is gone.  They can then focus on what is the actual purpose of the game, to RP their character.

[frankjacoby]

I think we can all agree on the following:

1.  We ALL want what's best for the game
2.  We ALL want to see more players
3.  We ALL are thankful for the staff taking the time to help
4.  We however want fewer restrictions and micro-managing based on someone's interpretation that could be completely random
5.  We want the content that made the game so popular instead of someone's opinion on what that should be
6.  We want to have a good time, but being forced to act or behave in a certain way to appease those in charge should be a thing of the past.

[Erythil]

Magic aside, I think the new subguilds (and forthcoming main guilds) are very transparent about what they do and do not get.

As far as magic is concerned, the relative lack of new spells probably makes the attempts to keep it mysterious futile.  With a couple utility exceptions, the spell lists were final over a decade ago.  Everyone who's put in the effort pretty much knows the broad strokes of what every spellcaster can do.  The only mystery now comes from who gets what spell.

'Symbol' was a nice concession to the reality that spell lists are only a google search away, but it is a little frustrating to want to roll a magic subguild, know the full spell list, and have to scratch one's head over what spells get sorted into what list--because individual spells can be powerful enough that having the 'right' one can define a character's gameplay style and therefore one's main guild choice.

[MarshallDFX]

I was trying to suggest 4/5/6 may be less reflective of the present than you are suggesting. But that's just, like, my opinion man

[Rahnevyn]

As far as magic is concerned, the relative lack of new spells probably makes the attempts to keep it mysterious futile.  With a couple utility exceptions, the spell lists were final over a decade ago.  Everyone who's put in the effort pretty much knows the broad strokes of what every spellcaster can do.  The only mystery now comes from who gets what spell.

This is a veteran-centric opinion, though. Yes, if you've played for ten years, you have probably "seen some shit" and played the guy who can do the crazy shit yourself. After a while, the memory of how cool and mysterious it felt to see for the first time fades away. But think back to how you felt the first time you encountered something you didn't know in game. That heart-pumping wtf-zomg-bbq-awesome feeling is what gets people hooked. New players haven't had that feeling yet, and that's who the system is targeted at.

[deskoft]

Yeah, I mean, I think the no-IC discussion thing is also fatnastic for veterans to find some charm in IC secrets. Honestly, I think a lot of people really join the game because they want to avoid OOC. The OOC community when encouraged is, generally, not very positive. This isn't just here. I have staffed in another mud and honestly the game can become OOC politics without these restrictions. I'm all for keeping them and I think it could lead to me leaving the game if they are removed.

[frankjacoby]

Yeah, I mean, I think the no-IC discussion thing is also fatnastic for veterans to find some charm in IC secrets. Honestly, I think a lot of people really join the game because they want to avoid OOC. The OOC community when encouraged is, generally, not very positive. This isn't just here. I have staffed in another mud and honestly the game can become OOC politics without these restrictions. I'm all for keeping them and I think it could lead to me leaving the game if they are removed.

Again, to be clear, not speaking of secrets, plots and things going on SHOULD be kept ic.  With that being said, skills, namely what a class is capable of should NOT be a secret, imo of course.

[nauta]

Yes, Guilds should list what skills are in it in an explicit manner just like Subguilds currently do.

(Also, new players should be able to request karma.)

[RogueGunslinger]

Feels like deja vu. We already argued for these things, and staff have been mostly obliging us.

[Cind]

In response to the post about karma: I've sent in a couple of karma requests and was obliged for the earlier one. I do think you need to know that you've got to ask in order to get karma, if you aren't actually doing anything like being a leader or a responsible assassin. For many years I didn't know that actively asking was more likely to work for you than waiting on your yearly account-checking thing that I've forgotten the name for. My other karma was added for longevity before that, from a yearly account-checking thing.

Honestly, though, in the old system, once you've gotten one karma, you could pretty much play or apply for most things that were worth playing, in my opinion, unless you really had your heart set on a mul, sorcerer or mindworm. But those roles are so iso that, while I bet they are fun to try and then play later after your first try, they might not be many peoples' favorites. The game world's architecture is based around inequality in many areas, and there are reasons many people do not play elves, and generally expect pc elves to be troublemakers. Because, really, are you playing an elf to make nice with the two soldiers, Kadian crafter, and Fale aide at the bar, who all happen to be more human than human? No, you've probably got that super iso role with sweet agility and horrible strength in order to train up steal in secret for a while and then wreck house. Not all elves are played like that, but a lot of them are.

[Riev]

In response to the post about karma: I've sent in a couple of karma requests and was obliged for the earlier one. I do think you need to know that you've got to ask in order to get karma, if you aren't actually doing anything like being a leader or a responsible assassin. For many years I didn't know that actively asking was more likely to work for you than waiting on your yearly account-checking thing that I've forgotten the name for. My other karma was added for longevity before that, from a yearly account-checking thing.

Honestly, though, in the old system, once you've gotten one karma, you could pretty much play or apply for most things that were worth playing, in my opinion, unless you really had your heart set on a mul, sorcerer or mindworm. But those roles are so iso that, while I bet they are fun to try and then play later after your first try, they might not be many peoples' favorites. The game world's architecture is based around inequality in many areas, and there are reasons many people do not play elves, and generally expect pc elves to be troublemakers. Because, really, are you playing an elf to make nice with the two soldiers, Kadian crafter, and Fale aide at the bar, who all happen to be more human than human? No, you've probably got that super iso role with sweet agility and horrible strength in order to train up steal in secret for a while and then wreck house. Not all elves are played like that, but a lot of them are.

The point you're missing is that the "Karma Review" option, in which a player could, one time a year, ask staff to review their notes, their play, and their communication and re-establish what they felt the player had earned so far as karma, is not in operation. It has not been in operation for over a year. Any player who started after February of 2017 has not had this ability, and can only "earn" karma if they happen across a staffer who can justify it to their boss.

Thats not okay.

[seidhr]

public service announcement:  Threads are way more effective when they stay on topic and don't devolve into just random complaining about multiple subjects.

[MarshallDFX]

Threads are ever effective?  Here I thought all internets was screaming into the void.

[tapas]

The bigger problem is the general opacity of other hidden mechanics.

Like for example, imagine a skill that works most of the time. But in a one particular situation it works but doesn't give you a skill increase. Or if you use it against a certain weapon type you get a malus to it's effect.

Or there are unlisted bugs/features to the skill that have existed for the last 10 years but have not been changed. That could cause all kinds of unexpected behavior.

[Riev]

Edited by Seidhr:  Riev, I do have an interest in the topic.  That's why I posted to keep it on track.  If you continue shitposting and back-handing the staff, you'll get a ban.