IDEA: Transparent Ingredients

[nauta]

Mansa posted something in another thread which I can't find, but it got me thinking.  What if we published the full database of ingredients?  It's a raw idea that hasn't cooked, but here are some thoughts to consider:

1. You can flag items as craftable only by a certain clan currently.  So those ingredients would still be 'secret', although maybe the database could be setup to check your clan flag and reveal those too. 

2. Stats would obviously remain hidden.

3. Some items might need to be flagged as 'private'... but the more I think about it, the fewer items I can think of that should be flagged as private.

Why?  Two reasons, one negative and one positive:

1. Negative Reason.  How much fun is it (really) to figure out what ingredients go into a piece of equipment?  Now, I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who absolutely adores the fact that in an RPI like ArmageddonMUD the stats are 'hidden' from our characters and so in order to determine if one weapon is better than another you have to actually go out and use field experience (or talk to an expert who used field experience).  I love, love, love this aspect -- it makes exploration and experience in-game a rewarding achievement.  But does this also apply to determining what ingredients go into making a shoe?  Moreover, you can actually find out what ingredients go into making a shoe using the 'analyze' command already in-game, so it just slows discovery down a bit or halts it entirely when the item isn't around, which leads me to the positive reason why:

2. Economic Booooooom!  If a crafter knows what ingredients goes into making a grommit, they then have incentive to ask other groups of PCs to go out and fetch those ingredients, and thus it is a way of stimulating the economy.  Conversely, if you don't know what ingredients go into making a grommit, you might just toss your hands up in the air and not even bother, and thus it has a depressing effect on the economy.  So think about it this way: if the ingredients were transparent to us the players, would we have a more vibrant economy over-all and a more vibrant crafting experience?

Obviously, there'd be decisions on how to implement it. A really simple list on the web might do, but an even more interesting implementation would be to have it check your character's skill level and list only those objects that you can make.  Click on the object, and you see its mdesc and ingredients, etc.

Ok, that's the raw meat -- what do you think?

[James de Monet]

I'm not really in favor of giving out huge lists of items.  It kinda takes some of the magic out of finding something new and interesting.

I do agree there is an issue with the way crafting works.  Customcrafting works like RL: I want to make this thing out of that thing and this other thing.  But normal crafting doesn't.  It works more like a magical spell where you have to guess the strange reagents.

I would be more in favor of a limited list of items, such that you could do this:
>craft tan.leather for boots
You could make:
1) A simple pair of boots (easy)
With a blue cord, you could make:
1) A pair of blue-laced boots (difficult)
2) A pair of blue-cord bound boots (easy)
With a piece of bone, a piece of wood, you could make:
1) A pair of wood-soled, bone-spiked boots (impossible)

Etc.

That way crafters would still be limited in what they could make by the ingredients they can lay hands on, and on the recipes they think to code check.  It would solve the "why does this say it's good for armor when there aren't any recipes?!?" problem, and the "I can't use this by itself, should I keep it?" problem, and the "I really want to make thing X, but can only guess one ingredient" problem, but would still leave "secret" recipes (things with all weird or unexpected keywords, or all rare ingredients) for the Explorer types to find.

[maxid]

I'm not really in favor of giving out huge lists of items.  It kinda takes some of the magic out of finding something new and interesting.

I do agree there is an issue with the way crafting works.  Customcrafting works like RL: I want to make this thing out of that thing and this other thing.  But normal crafting doesn't.  It works more like a magical spell where you have to guess the strange reagents.

I would be more in favor of a limited list of items, such that you could do this:
>craft tan.leather for boots
You could make:
1) A simple pair of boots (easy)
With a blue cord, you could make:
1) A pair of blue-laced boots (difficult)
2) A pair of blue-cord bound boots (easy)
With a piece of bone, a piece of wood, you could make:
1) A pair of wood-soled, bone-spiked boots (impossible)

Etc.

That way crafters would still be limited in what they could make by the ingredients they can lay hands on, and on the recipes they think to code check.  It would solve the "why does this say it's good for armor when there aren't any recipes?!?" problem, and the "I can't use this by itself, should I keep it?" problem, and the "I really want to make thing X, but can only guess one ingredient" problem, but would still leave "secret" recipes (things with all weird or unexpected keywords, or all rare ingredients) for the Explorer types to find.

There is no magic in 'finding something new' as it pertains to the limited-item crafting ability of the hardcoded crafting system.  In real life, you'd be able to make all sorts of variations to an item with whatever materials you have around you.  In the game, you have to have specific code-required items in order to craft.

I realize that, with as long as you've been playing, you likely have fairly good knowledge of the crafting system and potential requirements/ingredients, so its fun and interesting.  However, to a new player it's merely frustrating that they can't figure out that they need 'a sliver of bone' not 'a shard of bone' because those are two separate items in the code.

A published list does nothing except let the player know the completely-OOC code requirements of an item's creation.  I don't think anyone wants a list of every possible item ever able to be made, and any list would have omissions (and there'd be separate lists for Kadius/Kurac/etc. for items specific to them).

Having a list of the basic items you can craft with general tips and an item list is a really good idea.  There's literally nothing 'new and interesting' in having to know you need 'ruddy thread' + 'white linen' to make a robe that could easily be made with 'silky thread' and 'white linen' or 'greenish thread' and 'white linen'.  That's a very Old Player Keeping New Players Down way of looking at it.

[James de Monet]

By magic, I was referring to the items themselves, not the crafting recipes.  Even after all the years I've played, I still get a little thrill when I find something new, but seeing things on a list takes that away, speaking for myself.  YMMV.

I definitely agree about the trials of the crafting system.  That's why I said it doesn't work like RL crafting would (vs customcrafting, which does).

I can see why you were confused, though.  The first paragraph, I said "the magic" meaning interesting and novel things.  The second paragraph, I said "magical spell" meaning things that are arcane and inscrutable.  Poor choice of words for two totally different contexts.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Well another issue is the very same one you alluded to earlier where some items just have zero recipes unless you are clanned. Honestly, this probably would be much less of a problem if every leather and shell type had three basic recipes attached to it. Weapons seem pretty intuitive on the norm, except for chopping weapons for some reason, of which there are 3 different axe blades that have only recipes attached to a clan and the recipe may work with a pole as opposed to a branch, etc.

I think another great issue is that there are a ridiculous amount of items with no recipe. This includes simple things as well as things that should be clan related (if you're in said clan with appropriate skill required). This more than anything left me banging my head against a wall, frustrated with the unintuitive crafting system.

[Cind]

We could make helpfiles listing common crafting recipes that would be tricky to figure out by yourself, but would be well-known, technically, to official crafters of that group of crafts.

For example, there is a common rock you can dig up literally anywhere, at worst thirty seconds from where you live. It can be made into A, which can be made into B and C. However, I had to join a clan as a crafter in order to learn that A could be crafted further into B or C. I had been playing for several years, maybe 5-8, before learning this very simple recipe.

Maybe bibbob A is being dropped by chalton and bibbob B is being dropped by vultures. They combine together into extremely useful bibbob C, we can call it the Master Sword. Maybe it is useful because it has supreme parry for those who have the skill. Or maybe its just strong enough to be coveted. Naturally, you'd think whoever eventually found out the recipe would be sharing it like the wind, right? But the Master Sword doesn't sell well enough, or no one is thinking to combine something like a feather with something like a bone shaft. The most useful sword in the game is not being discovered because of the unrealistic crafting barrier we are discussing. Helpfile time!

[Grapes]

Part of the challenge, for me, of playing guild Merchant, was discovering, over time, the necessary ingredients to make some fancy dangly bits... it was also part of the fun. It's what differentiated my PC from anyone with (master) in a skill, as, let's be blunt, it's pretty easy to hit (master) in a crafting skill. Over iterations, this can seem excessively "gamey", but not game-breakingly so. Of course none of this even matters, as the old guild system is going to be replaced eventually.

Master-crafted items can, and should, come with a challenge beyond the coded challenge to reproduce. This can be cheated with databases and spreadsheets, but, I doubt that's too much of a concern. I always work on memory, but that's not for everyone. I'm against coded transparency for craft recipes, as such could be achieved ICly using the artist skill, to sketch out, possibly intelligible IKEA instructions pages. These could be replicated. I would prefer the margin of error be contained on the IC side, than mystically making crafting too much easier.

[tortall]

I'm not really in favor of giving out huge lists of items.  It kinda takes some of the magic out of finding something new and interesting.

I do agree there is an issue with the way crafting works.  Customcrafting works like RL: I want to make this thing out of that thing and this other thing.  But normal crafting doesn't.  It works more like a magical spell where you have to guess the strange reagents.

I would be more in favor of a limited list of items, such that you could do this:
>craft tan.leather for boots
You could make:
1) A simple pair of boots (easy)
With a blue cord, you could make:
1) A pair of blue-laced boots (difficult)
2) A pair of blue-cord bound boots (easy)
With a piece of bone, a piece of wood, you could make:
1) A pair of wood-soled, bone-spiked boots (impossible)

Etc.

That way crafters would still be limited in what they could make by the ingredients they can lay hands on, and on the recipes they think to code check.  It would solve the "why does this say it's good for armor when there aren't any recipes?!?" problem, and the "I can't use this by itself, should I keep it?" problem, and the "I really want to make thing X, but can only guess one ingredient" problem, but would still leave "secret" recipes (things with all weird or unexpected keywords, or all rare ingredients) for the Explorer types to find.

I REALLY like this. There are some things I would NOT have thought of putting together to make something but then I get my hands on an item to analyze and I get REALLY excited.

I also think that a huge list posted online wouldn't be the best. There ARE supposed to be benefits to joining a clan. Since the lifesworn and contracts is done with, you can join a clan and leave at any time, so why not join a clan?

[nauta]

I also think that a huge list posted online wouldn't be the best. There ARE supposed to be benefits to joining a clan. Since the lifesworn and contracts is done with, you can join a clan and leave at any time, so why not join a clan?

Quick note to clarify:

1. You can flag items as craftable only by a certain clan currently.  So those ingredients would still be 'secret', although maybe the database could be setup to check your clan flag and reveal those too. 

What I mean here is that CLAN-ONLY items would NOT show up in the publicly available listing, as I agree with you that clan membership has perks.  Now, you could set it up so that (a) clan-only items never show up; (b) clan-only items show up in the main list only if you are flagged as being a member of that clan; or (c) clan-only items show up behind the clan gdb paywall, so to speak.  I'm neutral on that.

I also like hearing about the differing views about the 'discovery' element for the crafting experience: is this something important to crafting or not?  Some seem to hold that this is VERY important for the crafting experience, whereas others do not.

(To repeat and show my cards: I hold it is VERY important in other aspects of the game: finding out how good this sword is against scrab, exploring the Grey Forest, etc.  But, at  least from my perspective, discovering recipes is not something that is very important or even that interesting, and there might be positives to not having to spend time discovering them "in character".)

[WithSprinkles]

Some Explorer types enjoy wandering the wilderness and others like sitting in crafter halls for hours at a time tinkering with ingredients. It is a special kind of frustration and reward when you can share your accomplishment with other crafters for FINALLY finding out how you made certain things that were driving everyone crazy or knowing how to make something special. It is no wonder people try to find ways to keep some recipes sacred BECAUSE of that effort. They either mean something personally (storyline) or they went to that much trouble to discover it.

I am in favor of a few more general recipes shared in the help files, but if anyone is actually sitting and being dedicated to crafting, a white cloth mixed with green dye = green cloth isn't that hard to figure out. Finding new and interesting crafts is the fun part.

Going from clan to clan to glean their secrets makes me wonder why clans would allow crafters to do that.. and you know.. sometimes they won't depending if the people leading the clan want someone taking up a spot in their clan who is clearly only there for that. Being Lifesworn isn't a big thing anymore (some people actually IN the the merchant clans when that happened weren't joyful, because that is an RP aspect several wanted) but it makes little sense for these big powerful houses to give away their crafting techniques to random Amos' on the street.

Not everything seems to be able to be crafted into something though, yeah and that can be confusing or annoying.

Perhaps instead of the message that says you can't craft an ingredient into anything, a message that says you don't have the skill to craft it into something YET if there are recipes for it at higher skill levels? That might alleviate a little annoyance. That could even be applied to items in combinations and hint at recipes even if you don't have the skill to make them. Items that have no higher up recipes or that do not combine will give the default message stating that they do not make anything. Would that be good?

Doodad with no recipes:
You don't think you could craft that into anything.

Doodad with recipes:
You could make...
   1) a thingamajig from that. [cooking, difficult]

Doodad 2.doodad with recipe out of your skill range:
You think someday you could make something from that, but currently lack the training.

Doodad 2.doodad with recipe and possibility of another recipe if you add another unknown ingredient:
You could make...
   1) a thingamajig from that. [cooking, difficult]
   2) an unknown recipe. [-?-?-?]

[tortall]

I didn't mean clan specific items. When you join a clan you also get the knowledge of the other players in the clan, so they can show you things and like, make with the RP. Rather that just being handed it.

Maybe a few more suggestions in the helpfiles, but I'm still not a fan of a huge list posted. For me that is the fun of the game. You'll NEVER learn it all, no matter how long you play. There's always something new being made, and new stuff to figure out.

[Grapes]

I think joining a clan with your first merchant can be a drawback, because you get exposed to a lot of clan recipes you might not know are clan only. Playing an indie merchant is the best way to get the basis, imo. Might be good if some flags showed up to the player to indicate it's a clan only recipe.

[Delirium]

I like the idea that instead of having clan crafts behind a clan wall, you'd require a tool for clan-only recipes that you can only get from being in that clan. 'A case of fancy, salarri-stamped armorcrafting tools' is required to make that helmet, buddy. Or 'a catalogue of Kadian patterns' is needed for those pants, missy. So even if you know the recipe you'd need the advanced tool(s) to make it.

[ShaLeah]

I like the idea that instead of having clan crafts behind a clan wall, you'd require a tool for clan-only recipes that you can only get from being in that clan. 'A case of fancy, salarri-stamped armorcrafting tools' is required to make that helmet, buddy. Or 'a catalogue of Kadian patterns' is needed for those pants, missy. So even if you know the recipe you'd need the advanced tool(s) to make it.

I like this A LOT. 
It never sat right with me that you'd not be able to do someone else's work simply because you're not clanned. This would add so much realism AND make it interesting to steal said magickal tools and maybe open the market for a MASTER FORGER skill or subclass.


I am also very much in favor of a providing a list of everything a clan makes to be accessible by sponsored gmh family or once you a lifer master crafter.

[tortall]

I like the idea that instead of having clan crafts behind a clan wall, you'd require a tool for clan-only recipes that you can only get from being in that clan. 'A case of fancy, salarri-stamped armorcrafting tools' is required to make that helmet, buddy. Or 'a catalogue of Kadian patterns' is needed for those pants, missy. So even if you know the recipe you'd need the advanced tool(s) to make it.

I like this A LOT. 
It never sat right with me that you'd not be able to do someone else's work simply because you're not clanned. This would add so much realism AND make it interesting to steal said magickal tools and maybe open the market for a MASTER FORGER skill or subclass.


I am also very much in favor of a providing a list of everything a clan makes to be accessible by sponsored gmh family or once you a lifer master crafter.

This I can totally get behind. When you're sponsored Family there should be a list of EVERYTHING you can sell/House stuff your character would be able to make. I can get people who start as a recruit and work their way up may not get this access for a few years, but it looks a bit crazy if Family doesn't know what they have available. This would also allow those high up the ability to teach special recipes to their underlings.

I also love the special tool idea. Though I'll say finding the right tool with the quality required can be MADDENING. From experience.

[Cind]

I like that idea too! An elven woman with a great set of hands just trying to feed her kids gets her hands on a catalogue of Kadian designs through her usual shady 'shopping options'.... and goose-embroidered pants start popping up in stores they shouldn't be... someone tells the Kadian merchant and he tells the Templars... 'the secret of the goose-embroidered pants has been stolen from the compound!' he says. 'Someone is going to die!'

That would be the point the elven woman has to decide whether to destroy the catalogue or, a riskier option, sell it for a lot of money to a human guy she knew in the Byn... he begins making duck-embroidered jackets from it... and then -he- is caught, and points the blame at the elven woman, who ran off to Storm with the money... but, the Templar says, we found -you- with the catalogue and she's out of our reach.... you ever hear of the cuddler, boy?

[Grapes]

Duck duck goose... though I believe the families have their own branches for quietly solving such problems, going to a Templar might risk alerting the perpatrator.

[maxid]

By magic, I was referring to the items themselves, not the crafting recipes.  Even after all the years I've played, I still get a little thrill when I find something new, but seeing things on a list takes that away, speaking for myself.  YMMV.

I definitely agree about the trials of the crafting system.  That's why I said it doesn't work like RL crafting would (vs customcrafting, which does).

I can see why you were confused, though.  The first paragraph, I said "the magic" meaning interesting and novel things.  The second paragraph, I said "magical spell" meaning things that are arcane and inscrutable.  Poor choice of words for two totally different contexts.

No, I understood you.  There is just no joy in 'oh I guess if I'd been adding in this sandstone pebble, I'd've been making this way cooler item all along but I oocly didn't know it until now'.  That's just lame, lazy code-inspired limitations.  Making things, in reality, is so dramatically different than 'insert a, b, and c items to receive x item' that a list is the only real fix to make it more realistic.

You think it's interesting and novel to be locked out of something because you have a bunch of leather, and two kinds of pebbles so you were trying 'craft leather soapstone' not 'craft leather sandstone' - and no staffer has put in a soapstone-studded leather vest?  That's asinine.  If our intent is to simulate crafting as well as we can, then you're smart enough to realize that a designer could use soapstone or sandstone pebbles to make the studs, so the only limitation on recipes is literally just that some staffer hasn't actually created the item in the database.

A list obviates the new/old divide and gives people equal IC footing as crafters.  It removes OOC benefits that longterm players like yourself have over newbies, and makes the game better, more realistic, and easier to get into. 

[Brokkr]

We have enough raw ingredients that unless you specifically set up the system on the front end to make essentially generic items with predefined substitutions to keyword/description based on certain ingredients, things like substituting soapstone for sandstone for jasper for granite, etc. for the buttons and carru for duskhorn for inix for the leather doesn't work.

Because you are not looking at thousands of permutations, you are looking at millions of permutations.

[maxid]

We have enough raw ingredients that unless you specifically set up the system on the front end to make essentially generic items with predefined substitutions to keyword/description based on certain ingredients, things like substituting soapstone for sandstone for jasper for granite, etc. for the buttons and carru for duskhorn for inix for the leather doesn't work.

Because you are not looking at thousands of permutations, you are looking at millions of permutations.

Yes, I understand that.  That's why a transparent list is the only viable option that doesn't prejudice the game toward older players.  You'd have to redo the entire system to make it fun and interesting to try and succeed at new recipes.

[MarshallDFX]

Supportive.

I am newbish in my knowledge and feel no magic when I figure something out.  Just irritated that there is some cult treating it like highest order state secrets ic and ooc and I have to go through random tests to figure it out

[CodeMaster]

We have enough raw ingredients that unless you specifically set up the system on the front end to make essentially generic items with predefined substitutions to keyword/description based on certain ingredients, things like substituting soapstone for sandstone for jasper for granite, etc. for the buttons and carru for duskhorn for inix for the leather doesn't work.

Because you are not looking at thousands of permutations, you are looking at millions of permutations.

Yes, I understand that.  That's why a transparent list is the only viable option that doesn't prejudice the game toward older players.  You'd have to redo the entire system to make it fun and interesting to try and succeed at new recipes.

What if there were special help files that were only available to you if you had master crafting?  They could be programmatically generated, updated weekly, and contain a few dozen random recipes that anyone could craft?

[Nao]

We have enough raw ingredients that unless you specifically set up the system on the front end to make essentially generic items with predefined substitutions to keyword/description based on certain ingredients, things like substituting soapstone for sandstone for jasper for granite, etc. for the buttons and carru for duskhorn for inix for the leather doesn't work.

Because you are not looking at thousands of permutations, you are looking at millions of permutations.

Yes, I understand that.  That's why a transparent list is the only viable option that doesn't prejudice the game toward older players.  You'd have to redo the entire system to make it fun and interesting to try and succeed at new recipes.

What if there were special help files that were only available to you if you had master crafting?  They could be programmatically generated, updated weekly, and contain a few dozen random recipes that anyone could craft?

Alternatively: Let's have a shop in game that keeps a stock of a 10 - 20 random, craftable items. Maybe include those that are clan-restricted.

They wouldn't restock so you can't just buy an infinite number of craftable items, but be re-stocked at reboots. Crafters could buy that stuff and and be guaranteed that the item is craftable and can be analyzed.

This would get forgotten recipes in game. You can access them at a price. You could still discover new things, and everyone would end up with different secret recipes.

[Riev]

Or as time goes on, slowly require that "salarri" items don't require being CLANNED Salarr, but it requires the crafting knowledge and their tools.

So if you're an ex-Salarri, somehow, who got their hands on a Salarri toolbox, you can still create that sword people want. Obviously Salarr would be on your ass about it, but if you don't have those specific tools for that specific job, no way.

So far as recipes go, then "anyone" could make those things, but the crafting says "You would need a Salarri_Tools to make this" or something.

[stoicreader]

 I'm feeling very negative about Arm. Don't even know what plant to use for tea and I haven't been able to ask anyone IG about it and no one will tell me OOC.

Its tea. Not an exploit. Not anything to give me a coded advantage. Its some thing any zalanthian would know...

Why the secret?

I'm in favor of transparency for a matter of playability. I'm seriously considering quitting and getting into a productive hobby. Maybe ill work for free in an restaurant to learn how to cookbetter or something.

Maybe yoga.