Combat Styles

[Rindan]

Armageddon already has fighting styles to an extent in the form of duel wielding, shield use, and now two handed fighting.  What I would like to see are more specific fighting styles such that you can actually tell the difference from a Northerner and a Southerner not just based upon the weapons and armor they are using, but also by how they fight.  The idea is simple, create fighting styles with as little code as possible and touching the combat code as little as possible.  While rewriting the combat code from scratch would be great fun to watch, it would be much less fun to do, and it is something that is not very feasible.  For that reason I think suggestions should be made understanding that total rewrites and fancy scripts are probably not realistic things to suggest.

The basic idea is this, take what we already have and make it more specific.  So, today we have duel wielding.  If you use this skill then you get a bonus to parry and an extra attack or single wielding a single weapon.  Based upon the assumption that skills can be modified the same way duel wield or two handed weapons do, I would propose a more elaborate system then what is currently in.

Let's say that you want to fight like an Allanaki.  An Allanaki's style is characterized by very light, very quickly, lethal blows, and by the tendency to avoid hits entirely rather then deflect them.  If you were to watch two Allanaki's fight they would swing and miss critical strikes against each other, then one of them would land a blow that if it were not lethal, it would be very damaging.  There would be much fewer nicks and close calls, and most strikes that land would be devastating.  How to simulate this with code?

First, if someone is fighting with an Allanaki style, modify their base skills in the same way duel wield modifies parry.  So, lets say +40% to offense (tendency to be very offensive when in combat), +20% to duel wield (tendency to use two weapons at once), +10% to parry (tendency to avoid blows all together and not let them hit), -60% to armor rating (tendency avoid blows, but not deflect them, if a blow hits, it hurts), and +10% to slashing weapons and piercing weapons (tendency towards knives, short swords, and daggers).

What this does is modify one's skills such that when they fight they would be highly offensive.  When blows hit, they hit damned hard.  It also highly encourages using traditional Allanaki weapons and armor.  A smart warrior using this style is going to quickly realize that armor isn't going to do much.  Allanaki style means that they spend little time on deflecting blows that hit armor and more time on avoiding them all together.  Even with the best armor out there, if a blow hits, it will hurt.  It is better simply to forgo the heavy armor to remain light such that no penalties are taken against things that end combat as quickly as possible.  Further, when blows hit they do incredible damage because of the high offense and low armor rating, as a result weapons will break much more often, as Allanaki weapons should.

Now, if a coder is feeling real fancy, you could complicate it even further.  Using Allanaki style combat one gets a -20% to parry if they weight more then moderately encumbered, simulating that an Allanaki style of combat very strongly relies on quick movements.  If the weapon being used is lighter then 4 stones, then it is +5% to parry and offense.  Tuluki style which relies on flashy moves that build into an opening to strike through might have the offensive rating jumps every 10 rounds (give or take a random number) of combat up with a +50% bonus for a single round then drops back down to normal.  A Tuluki might also get a sudden -50% defense rating every 20 rounds of combat to simulate the fancy style leading to a mistake.  So on and so forth getting as fancy as any coder is willing to get.  Fancy would be great, but I think simple would also be fine.

As for advancement, set it so that when one starts everything is in an extreme.  An n00b using Allanaki style is going to have the things that are getting minus modifiers be very big.  Things that get plus modifiers will be small.  So, a n00b Allanaki is going to have roughly average offensive capabilities that are a little better then the average n00b using generic style, but he is going to get he is going to take crippling blows when he gets hit because his penalties to his armor rating will be massive.  As he trains in the style the negatives will become less extreme and the bonuses greater.  Never at any point will the negatives ever vanish.  They can just slowly be minimized over time.  It might be that an extremely skilled Allanaki fighter would still have a -50% armor penalty, but at the same time he would have withering offensive capabilities.  The point would be to make sure that no matter how good someone gets, they need to stick to the style of combat they have trained in.  An Allanaki will do a bad job at deflecting blows, but he might get damned good and landing a quick critical strike.

I would not block anyone from learning any of the basic styles.  A northerner could learn to fight like a southerner, but if you are in Tuluk, and you are trying to decide which style to train in, which would you pick, the one that says Allanak or Tuluk?  So a few Tuluki might choose to fight very lightly like an Allanaki, but most would stick to being Tuluki.

The beauty of this is that it could work like a skill.  You simply type 'allanaki style' and it turns that style on like it would turn on listen.  Of course, unlike listen it would remain on until you turned it off.  So long as that skill is on, that is the one being used whenever combat is entered.  A skilled warrior might end up picking up more then one style in his life time simply to have options.  Organizations might have their own style which they teach.  You might not be able to learn Kuraci style unless you are a Kuraci, the Byn might use their own mercenary style, and militia might have a style that focuses on non-lethal combat for capturing criminals.  There could also be more generic styles.  For instance, there might be a generic 'hunting style' that all rangers would have the option of using, or there could be a generic knife fighting style or 'rinth style for city people.  Because one could still choose to go without picking a style, it wouldn't mean recoding all the NPCs.  NPCs would just be using the normal combat code until someone got bored and gave them a style skill to use.

A few cons I thought of are the following:
-A style might emerge as being 'better' then the other ones.  It might turn out that Tuluki style which focuses heavily on defense is nearly untouchable.  

Two things I think would counter balance this.  First, because it is a skill there is a lot of ambiguity as to which is 'best'.  People still argue to this days over shields verses duel wielding.  Because it is a skill and there is no easy way to compare, I think unless the imbalance is glaring it would be imperceptible.   Second, there is nothing wrong with tweaking things to balance.  The idea is to help with the role play and diversify warriors, and make it so that you see units of southern warriors wearing sandcloth armor without taking sever penalties.  The goal is not to give people an edge in fighting.

-It might imbalance the game.  I imagine that when things are being tested it is pretty easy to load up a roughly 10 day old warrior, test it against something, and see how it does.  If suddenly two 10 day old warriors with the same play time and fighting time can have vastly different skills, then it makes getting the right balance for an NPC difficult.

Again, this is a fair concern, but I think it is a balancing issue that could slowly be worked out with time.  It might very well turn out that Allanaki style is great against people but suicide against a tembo, while Tuluki style takes forever to kill a person but can't be touched by a tembo.  There is the potential for a painful opening period when people are still feeling it out, but I think in the long term the diversity in combat characters would be well worth it.

-Could be used to twink out training.  For instance, someone could switch to a style they are poor at just to get their weapon skills knocked down.

This already happens and I don't think it is a bad thing.  Skilled warriors often times switch to just using their off handed weapon to beat up on newbies.  Handicapping yourself seems like a perfectly viable way to improve yourself.  If you are a nasty Allanaki and you have to spar with a newbie, it makes total sense to switch to that flashy Tuluki style.  Instead of going in for the obvious blows any Allanaki would see, you handicap yourself by making fighting in such a way that your attacks need to be elegant and planned to force a large opening.  That seems like a perfectly reasonable way to train on someone who otherwise would offer no challenge.

Thoughts?  Comments?

[Anonymous]

I've always wondered what happened to the coded fighting styles that Krrx put in game.  IIRC it was meant to be be organic and passed on from PCs to other PCs they deemed worthy.  Considering I don't know what happened to it, that probably puts me in the unworthy category or maybe it died out.

[Mr.Camel]

 I love it.

[Callisto]

I like the idea.

But I don't like the idea of styles becoming another skill you learn, so turning it on and off is a major no-no in my opinion. It should be set like a reroll, you have three hours to toggle one of the fighting styles on and once you toggle one on - again like reroll - you're stuck with it and have no option of going back.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...you have three hours to toggle one of the fighting styles on and once you toggle one on - again like reroll - you're stuck with it and have no option of going back.

Nah, I disagree. If you did that, then someone could not become a combat master, because they could not switch between styles, and they should be able to.

[Malifaxis]

Perhaps have it be off of base offense rating?
Every full 20% offense you have from your basic, un style mod'd rating, you can learn one 'style' which is listed... somewhere?

change style wussinaki
change style tree-hugger
change style wickedkuraci

etc?

[Ueda]

This idea seems somewhat pointless......Let me explain. When you emote you are using a style of fighting. (Am I right on this one?) So in fact when you emote you can be using your different styles, and of course every time you fight your going to get better! Right? Another thing is most people just would use one style since you want to master your style of RL combat. I know if I where fighting someone seriously I would use the most effecient fighting possible.

[Rindan]

I like the idea.

But I don't like the idea of styles becoming another skill you learn, so turning it on and off is a major no-no in my opinion. It should be set like a reroll, you have three hours to toggle one of the fighting styles on and once you toggle one on - again like reroll - you're stuck with it and have no option of going back.

I wouldn't worry too much about people switching combat styles.  If a master Allanaki style fighters switches to Tuluki style combat all of a sudden it just means that he gets all of the negative effects and none of the bonuses.  So, he might get a +10% to armor, but he takes a -50% to offense.  Additionally, some places might require you to learn a certain style.  If you want to join the Tor elite you might have to learn their style.  It also gives a warrior something to do once he gets to the point where it is hard to go up any further.  He can simply start learning to fight in different ways.  

The RP in a place like the Byn could really shine through.  In such a place northern and southern styles would really clash.  You might have a sergeant who insists Allanaki style is the -only- way to fight, only to have a northern sergeant berate you for being so careless in your swings and leaving yourself open with your crude hacking at the air.  

It would be a great boon if you were decent enough where switching styles didn't cause terrible penalties.  Imagine if you are a Tuluki warrior and you come across a decently skilled Allanaki with a poisoned blade.  Now, normally you would stick to your tried and true style of Tuluki fighting.  Your would suffer a few nicks from the Allanaki but you are damned good with armor deflection.  You can't avoid blows as easily as an Allanaki, but when they do hit you are very good and shrugging them off.  Unfortunately, in this instance you are fighting someone with a poisoned weapon and who is using a very offensive style.  Just one hit that touches your skin and you are in a world of hurt.  So, being a skilled warrior you throw off your heavier armor, drop your back, pull out your long knives, and meet the Allanaki on his own terms, hoping that using Allanaki style combat you can kill him before he lands a hit.

On the flips side an Allanaki heading into war and mass combat might decide that while his style works great one on one, it is suicide to go into a large battle wearing nothing but sandcloth.  So, perhaps this Allanaki has also been training in mercenary style combat that allows for a little more armor and is a little more forgiving if a blow lands.  You give up some offensive power for the ability to stand a little longer in battle.

I think it opens up a lot of possibility and could really give a great boost to styles in fighting.  Instead of just emoting like you are attacking with only killing blows yet have the code utterly ignore your efforts, you could really fight like an Allanaki where blows are killing and any failure can lead to death on your part.  Instead of emoting that your skillful Tuluki warrior masterfully is deflecting off his armor only to have the code laugh at you, you really could learn over time to drastically increase the effectiveness of armor.  I think there is a lot of potential.

[Rindan]

This idea seems somewhat pointless......Let me explain. When you emote you are using a style of fighting. (Am I right on this one?) So in fact when you emote you can be using your different styles, and of course every time you fight your going to get better! Right? Another thing is most people just would use one style since you want to master your style of RL combat. I know if I where fighting someone seriously I would use the most effecient fighting possible.

When you emote you do display a style, unfortunately the code does not give you a helping hand in displaying its effects.  For instance, if you read the fighting documents Allanaki style combat is very fast and lightly armored combat.  Picture two guys with long knives suddenly going at it in a blur and a few seconds later one of those guys is dead after a hit or two.  Northerner style combat on the other hand is more stylish, defense oriented, and drawn out.  Picture two guys with heavy armor slowly wearing down at each other.  They use fancy maneuvers and places a great emphasis on deflection.  If a Northerner and a Allanaki were to fight, it would look like one lightly armored and armed guy making quick slashing attacks and leaping out of the way, while the other heavily armed guy takes his time, deflects the blows, and slowly cripples the lighter fighter.

The combat code will not display this.  You can emote using lightening fast and killing blows at the expensive of your ability to defend yourself until you are blue in the face and combat will not change.  This is especially true at higher levels of combat.  The idea isn't to make one style better or worse, simply to make them different, and have the difference noticeable.  It is sort of like having a southern and northern accent.  If nothing else, it will simply give warriors (and other combat classes) another way to set themselves apart.  It is just something to help bring to life the RPing differences between styles through code.

As to picking just a single style and getting good at it, that is a-okay.  I very imagine few would ever bother to learn more then one style.  The point isn't so much to give people the chance to change their style for the situation.  It is more just to give their coded fighting abilities flavor.  If you fight an Allanaki knife fighter you know it is going to be a fast and brutal fight.  If you go after a heavily armed and armored Tuluki wielding a shield and short sword, you know that you are going up against someone who will fight like a tank.

[Carnage]

I would much, much rather be able to emote things out than be forced to use a certain combat style. While yes, it does have its merits, what about variations of people? If I had a northern warrior who was a lumberjack, he'd fight while lightly armored and with an axe. Just like he would be when he was working. If I'm a wanderer of the desert who picked Luir's as his starting point, I'll probably be decked out in leather-reinforced sandcloth armor and etwoing a staff that he uses as a walking stick.

While yes, it is an interesting concept, it just doesn't give me the freedom to play what kind of characters I like. Exceptions to the norm aren't really that interesting after the millionth one, but I think that the Allanaki docs mostly pertain to trained warriors. If I were a southern noble with the authority, I would enforce that -all- the warriors that were in my guard use the traditional Allanaki style since it's proper. But as a Byn sergeant, I wouldn't give a fuck who uses what as long as they kill whatever. I might insist that they do it this way and say it's better, but I wouldn't actively force it.

[Rindan]

I would much, much rather be able to emote things out than be forced to use a certain combat style. While yes, it does have its merits, what about variations of people? If I had a northern warrior who was a lumberjack, he'd fight while lightly armored and with an axe. Just like he would be when he was working. If I'm a wanderer of the desert who picked Luir's as his starting point, I'll probably be decked out in leather-reinforced sandcloth armor and etwoing a staff that he uses as a walking stick.

While yes, it is an interesting concept, it just doesn't give me the freedom to play what kind of characters I like. Exceptions to the norm aren't really that interesting after the millionth one, but I think that the Allanaki docs mostly pertain to trained warriors. If I were a southern noble with the authority, I would enforce that -all- the warriors that were in my guard use the traditional Allanaki style since it's proper. But as a Byn sergeant, I wouldn't give a fuck who uses what as long as they kill whatever. I might insist that they do it this way and say it's better, but I wouldn't actively force it.

As I said, I would let it so that anyone can use any style that isn't something only a clan teaches.  Basically, you could pick anything other then say the Super Secret Tor style, which you can only learn the basics off if someone teaches it to you.  If start in Allanaki you might get a bonus to your Allanaki style, but nothing would stop you from becoming a master at Tuluki style combat.  So, if Red Storm style fits your Northern lumberjack better then Tuluki style, go for it.  The name of the style is just to suggest where that style is most prevalent.  If you really couldn't find anything then simply pick no style and you get your normal generic balance.  The idea isn't to hem people in, but to give them choices, style, and flavor.

I think there is a lot of potential for great customization.  If nothing else, one could always pick no style.  The idea wouldn't be to make one better then the other.  The idea is just to change the flavor of combat by letting people customize what their focus is.  If you want to be a fast brutal warrior who dresses only in sandcloth, go for it.  If you want to be a walking tank of terror who puts all his effort into learning how to use his armor better, you can do that too.  The point is to allow greater creativity.  

I doubt that many clans would enforce styles.  Your odd noble house might force you to do it THEIR way, but I think most organizations would simply want you to do it the way you are best at.  You might have a sergeant who constantly is on your ass for using that stupid flashy Tuluki technique, but I doubt he is going to force everyone in his unit to strip down to loin cloth and do it properly.

The idea really is to expand choices and offer tangible coded effects that reinforce the style you wish to RP.  Instead of emoting that you are recklessly attacking in sandcloth, you can actually do it and get all the benefits and penalties associated with it.

[creeper386]

Now... I like the ideas... But only slightly. What I like to see. Is options that allow someone to choose how they fight. They can fight like they fight now, or they have the option to change things around. Have the different types still even, just there for flavor. Have options that allow to fight in a northern or southern style, but make it so thats NOT the only way to do it. If you code them in as Southern Style, Northern Style, 'rinthi Style. It's not much really in terms of choice.

I think just some basic options in terms of fighting more defensively, fighting more offensively, options of how you defend(Do you rely more on deflecting blows or dodging them?), how you are on offense(Are you quick and brutal or have more planned blows). Just those few options would allow both Northern and Southern styles as well as something in between with combinations of different weapons and armour and such.

[Kalden]

I think it's a great idea. Anything to make the combat more interesting, rather than just "kill <target>".

I'd say make it a skill dependent upon the region you start out in. If you have special circumstances or get taught a different style, then you can get it, or maybe make the additional ones branchable to old warriors.

Why limit it according to region? How is your Tuluki going to learn the Allanaki style? True, there are 'nakkies around, but why would he stoop to their tactics and level unless he had significant experience in his own country's style? Just to retain the point of a Tuluki style, ie, a style for Tulukians, you should make it only branchable, at least.

Yes, I'd make it a skill, because otherwise the most beneficial style would be found out and abused. When you have to get better at it to use it more effectively, it's not like one is simply better than another.