Desert Elves and their place in the world

[Doublepalli]

Currently, they can be rare, but I am curious how they play a role in Zalanthas.

Do you hate them? Fear them? Why? Should they be hated? Feared? At least in the sands?
Are they to be treated like those filthy c-elves?
Do you trust them enough to trade?
What would the average person think or know of desert elves?
How do you think they should be portrayed? How do you think the world should treat desert elves?
What do they contribute to the game world?

[Riev]

Currently, they can be rare, but I am curious how they play a role in Zalanthas.

Do you hate them? Fear them? Why? Should they be hated? Feared? At least in the sands?
Are they to be treated like those filthy c-elves?
Do you trust them enough to trade?
What would the average person think or know of desert elves?
How do you think they should be portrayed? How do you think the world should treat desert elves?
What do they contribute to the game world?

It depends on the tribe, but for the most part I don't know how many PCs can/should be able to differentiate between which tribe is which.

They're not to be trusted. They're better at being elves than a city elf, and they don't -need- your coin.

I think the average person knows there are tribal elves that live in the desert, but what they do out there is anyone's guess.

I tend to think of them as semi-iso roles that want to explore the tribal themes of the game in an environment mostly removed from the MCB of the cities. You are playing in a group of people whom you trust, utmost, and know you have their back as they have yours, living in an unforgiving wasteland among other groups of people that you do NOT trust to hold your pack-reins while you get a snake out of your moccasins.

I think in times of yore, they're contributed a LOT to the gameworld, between the Sorcerer Shattered and the Heru Kija. There was a lot of stuff that went on during those times that was really pretty great, and didn't feel like you were going to get shunted out because a Templar in a Red Robe will come along and just lay waste to the threat. They've defended against Thralls, they've kept the Mantis in check, and been battling the gith for as long as anyone can remember. Most of the threats against the city of Allanak are because the tribal elves proved too much of a challenge.

Unfortunately, its also a great challenge to staff them, and get people to play them. Their place in this new Allanak-central gameworld we have is not well defined, and only one is capable or willing to trade. With other current events, they might not even do that. So they are this anomaly of elves, living in the desert. In the game world, they're great. In the player world... its like... 'why'?

[Kankfly]

So they are this anomaly of elves, living in the desert. In the game world, they're great. In the player world... its like... 'why'?

I just want to chime in saying that just because you don't see plots happening as a player doesn't mean they don't exist.

The plots you mentioned in your examples are major, multi-clanned plots. It is like saying there's no point in Allanak because there are no major, multi-clanned plots going on in there. But we all know that is not true.

There is a common misconception that just because you, as a player, has never seen certain things happening, doesn't mean they aren't happening. They might be happening, but you probably never got to know about it.

[Dar]

It depends on the tribe, but for the most part I don't know how many PCs can/should be able to differentiate between which tribe is which.
They're not to be trusted. They're better at being elves than a city elf, and they don't -need- your coin.
I think the average person knows there are tribal elves that live in the desert, but what they do out there is anyone's guess.
I tend to think of them as semi-iso roles that want to explore the tribal themes of the game in an environment mostly removed from the MCB of the cities. You are playing in a group of people whom you trust, utmost, and know you have their back as they have yours, living in an unforgiving wasteland among other groups of people that you do NOT trust to hold your pack-reins while you get a snake out of your moccasins.
I think in times of yore, they're contributed a LOT to the gameworld, between the Sorcerer Shattered and the Heru Kija. There was a lot of stuff that went on during those times that was really pretty great, and didn't feel like you were going to get shunted out because a Templar in a Red Robe will come along and just lay waste to the threat. They've defended against Thralls, they've kept the Mantis in check, and been battling the gith for as long as anyone can remember. Most of the threats against the city of Allanak are because the tribal elves proved too much of a challenge.

I have a problem with the bolded part of this post.

[Jihelu]

If you have a city elf and a desert elf and you tell them to run a race, that desert elf is going to win everytime.
If you think about how much of the main points of elves is 'run good' such to the point that they REFUSE to ride mounts, then yes. City elves suck compared to desert elves.

[whitt]

If you have a city elf and a desert elf and you tell them to run a race, that desert elf is going to win everytime.

Well... unless the cElf drills the dElf with a tainted blade.  That's what I'd do.

Win if you can.  Lose if you must.  Always Cheat.

[Jihelu]

If you have a city elf and a desert elf and you tell them to run a race, that desert elf is going to win everytime.

Well... unless the cElf drills the dElf with a tainted blade.  That's what I'd do.

Win if you can.  Lose if you must.  Always Cheat.

I didn't say they had to play fair.

[Doublepalli]

The way I compare c-elves to d-elves is this:

You may have a seat at this council, (as an elf), but we do not grant you the rank of master.

C-elves are inferior to d-elves in every way just about.

[evilcabbage]

that would work if they guy they granted a seat at the council but didn't make a Master wasn't -leagues- above all of them in terms of raw power.

[Doublepalli]

I think Mace Windu woulda kicked his butt if he wasn't backstabbed! But that's how c-elves work right?

[evilcabbage]

i want to nerd out on you so bad but all i can say is the two are the same race who have simply adapted to their settings.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Last time I checked Delfs could taint blades and use them just as well as Celfs. I'm not sure what all this discussion about City elves cheating more than Desert elves is. Desert elves have all the advantages AND they cheat for the benefit of their tribe.

Anybody who thinks a Desert Elf is played straight laced clearly never played as a desert elf much or just didn't portray it properly.

City elves are the under fed and abused cousin of the Desert Elf. When you play a city elf you are playing a handicapped regular elf.

[Armaddict]

City elves are the under fed and abused cousin of the Desert Elf. When you play a city elf you are playing a handicapped regular elf.

Not really true, but at this point it probably should be situated to be true, but this is more a symptom of not letting C-Elves to be in tribes even though they're supposed to be in tribes.  Keep in mind that by clan documentation, a lot of city-elf tribes are desert-elf tribes who migrated INTO the city for greener pastures long ago, and the biggest difference between the two is that we allow the isolated part of that population (i.e. desert elves) to have their documented support structure, while within the city we view that as an unfair advantage for player of elves (which I disagree with).

Once you hit that level, the 'differences' between desert elves and city elves become much more pronounced (i.e. How two, three, four, five, six smaller tribes in close contact quibble or ally in a city scenario) but the 'power' of them becomes absolutely adapted to their environment and their current social standing with each other.

Elves are oppressed, not little pariahs of social injustice that are kept weak and whimpering.  That's a player perspective.  Viewing it as a constant social struggle where only one side can possibly win open war as it stands is far more interesting than 'all da elfs are poor and weak an' so they steal'.

[Armaddict]

More on topic...

Desert elves are the last (currently) chance at antagonists to the Allanaki structure/dominance.  City elves and Desert elves should unite in a race war.

[Riev]

With recent events, I personally believe that delves don't have power or sway the way they used to, to have ANY chance at antagonism to anyone.

Personally, I think its time they start stealing elf children like the new Tan Muark to keep their families strong.

In an OOC manner, while I agree that things are and do happen with them, it does not change the fact that what they do seems to have little effect.

There is a common misconception that just because you, as a player, has never seen certain things happening, doesn't mean they aren't happening. They might be happening, but you probably never got to know about it.

I'm all for that, Kankfly, but if there is an entire sphere of the game with "things happening" but "I probably never got to know about it", that only reinforces my position that they are more of an isolated role, which for a lot of players is a difficult position to be in if they enjoy Armageddon as a social game. I know things have happened, do happen, and are happening, but you may as well tell me you're playing 1 hour a week in the Rocky Badlands playing in a virtual tribe of muls as their half-elf slave.

[palomar]

Which events, Riev? I'm not sure I understand what you refer to. Desert elves haven't truly been antagonists since the Red Fangs were around six RL years ago. The SLK, SR and ATV can all be antagonists within their loosely defined territories but it should also be noted that two of those tribes have been affected by how magick is handled in the game these days, and the Gith War affected the Tablelands tribes in various ways as well.

Regardless, d-elf and human tribals have always been more or less iso-roles. It's just part of the concept, and I don't consider it a problem. There is less attention on the Tablelands with Tuluk (and associated clans/tribes) closed, and the Tan Muark closed. Doesn't make playing a desert elf obsolete, in my book. Depends on what you'd want from that kind of role, I guess.

With recent events, I personally believe that delves don't have power or sway the way they used to, to have ANY chance at antagonism to anyone.

Personally, I think its time they start stealing elf children like the new Tan Muark to keep their families strong.

In an OOC manner, while I agree that things are and do happen with them, it does not change the fact that what they do seems to have little effect.

There is a common misconception that just because you, as a player, has never seen certain things happening, doesn't mean they aren't happening. They might be happening, but you probably never got to know about it.

I'm all for that, Kankfly, but if there is an entire sphere of the game with "things happening" but "I probably never got to know about it", that only reinforces my position that they are more of an isolated role, which for a lot of players is a difficult position to be in if they enjoy Armageddon as a social game. I know things have happened, do happen, and are happening, but you may as well tell me you're playing 1 hour a week in the Rocky Badlands playing in a virtual tribe of muls as their half-elf slave.

[Dahlia]

It's so good to see you, Palomar!   

[Riev]

Specifically, I was referring to the gith war and the decimation that was received on all sides. Without going into specifics, the numbers and influence aren't what they used to be, and old treaties and likely-verbal agreements were broken.

The Tablelands/Desert Elves/Tribal People sphere isn't like the Tuluki Sphere, or the Luir's Sphere, where there is some sort of ingrained reason for trade/antagonism/interaction with the other city-living spheres. I have almost no experience with desert elves, so I'm not saying they're bad or need work or anything.

The OP was about what their place is in the world, and right now their place seems to be even more isolated than ever, and I assume it means little interaction from the playerbase, and I don't know if there's a "Tribal" team that staffs over these people or if its just "Single player Armageddon w/ multiplayer options"

[palomar]

Specifically, I was referring to the gith war and the decimation that was received on all sides. Without going into specifics, the numbers and influence aren't what they used to be, and old treaties and likely-verbal agreements were broken.

The Tablelands/Desert Elves/Tribal People sphere isn't like the Tuluki Sphere, or the Luir's Sphere, where there is some sort of ingrained reason for trade/antagonism/interaction with the other city-living spheres. I have almost no experience with desert elves, so I'm not saying they're bad or need work or anything.

The OP was about what their place is in the world, and right now their place seems to be even more isolated than ever, and I assume it means little interaction from the playerbase, and I don't know if there's a "Tribal" team that staffs over these people or if its just "Single player Armageddon w/ multiplayer options"

Gotcha.

I'd say there are opportunities to break the isolation when it comes to Luir's, although I'm not sure about the extent of the interactions and real plot cooperation opportunities. It's the same for the human tribals, but since they're humans they're usually not as distrusted as the elves are.

Fairly isolated in terms of plot and deeper connections with the rest of the game world, yes. Tribes are part of the tribes and independents team (including the T'zai Byn), so there is staff support.

It's so good to see you, Palomar!   

Likewise!

[nauta]

Having played a senior role in a delf tribe during the gith war, I can say that it was pretty hard to get interaction/interest out of Allanak.  Luir's, sure.  But even the human tribes have a better chance of rallying Allanaki interest in a big plot than delves.

That said, delves are awesome and, yeah, a little bit iso, but it's a really fun role, and I'll probably play one every third PC or so.

ETA: I think the docs and world itself sort of preclude any big scale plot between delves and Nak.  The delves are not like Tuluk -- there is no chance they'd survive if Tek got upset at them, so viewing them as the 'antagonist' to Nak doesn't make too much sense.  As to being 'allies':  Delves are elves, so there's little reason to want to help them if you are Allanak, because, unlike with Luir's, even if the elves fall, Nak will probably still stand against whatever killed them.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Elves are oppressed, not little pariahs of social injustice that are kept weak and whimpering.  That's a player perspective.  Viewing it as a constant social struggle where only one side can possibly win open war as it stands is far more interesting than 'all da elfs are poor and weak an' so they steal'.

I wasn't really trying to portray that they steal because they're poor and weak. Desert elves do this and they're anything but. I'm simply going along with the only IC reason that desert elves are treated like an entirely different species regarding statistics. Celves don't steal because they're poor and weak, they are just poor and weak and also happen to steal.

As far as a race war goes, or a threat to Allanak, the largest elf clan is just over 400 vnpcs. The ones we can play  are roughly 200-150 vnpcs. I wish the Celves would just do it themselves. Iirc, there's a huge population inside the walls.

[Riev]

The struggle with the Celf population inside the walls is that rather than a tribe of 400 elves, there are 100 tribes of four elves (don't math me). Elves don't even trust other elves, unless they're family or Proven, so it would take something very large to unit so many city elves behind a common cause that wouldn't almost immediately crumble into distrust and betrayal.

No elf steals because they're poor and weak. They steal because the other person can't stop them. If they deserved to have their coin, they wouldn't have lost it so easily. If they deserve their new armor, they wouldn't have taken it off to fuck some independent whore. Elves are superior (in mindset), and so anything they want, belongs to them unless someone else proves why it doesn't.

[Doublepalli]

Then there is the fact players are more likely to try and treat d-elves like c-elves, which makes 0 sense as don't desert elf tribes have certain virtual reputations to uphold?

Aren't they known to be dangerous in the sands?

Or is it just, filthy elves through and through?

How is your common everyday supposed to view d-elves, outside of personal run-ins with them?

[Jihelu]

I'm still of the firm opinion that we should either:
A: Give city elves desert run and just emphasize that without a unified outdoor tribe, yes make it canon that city elves are basically tribeless fucks that should rely on the city for their petty social interactions so they don't go insane and so they can steal.
B: Give city elves desert run and still have them tribeless with a virtual tribe.
Or my favorite.
C: Copy the shit out of Dark Sun, every city elf is now a member of a major desert elf tribe and is simply staying in the city to sell shit with the occasional tribeless elf who lost his family. Give them delf run.

You may see a pattern here...
Give them delf run.

From an IC perspective my own tribal characters have viewed city elves as lesser and shittier compared to their sand running cousins. They barely get any support from their 'family'. They wind up dead for thievery every sixteen seconds.

You fuck with a delf? You have four or more fucking 8 foot tall humanoids outrunning your mount in the desert, shooting tainted arrows at your ass.

[whitt]

Having played a senior role in a delf tribe during the gith war, I can say that it was pretty hard to get interaction/interest out of Allanak.  Luir's, sure.  But even the human tribes have a better chance of rallying Allanaki interest in a big plot than delves.

To be fair, this may have something to do with the interaction with dElfs whenever they don't want something from Allanak generally being in the form of

Code Select Expand

An arrow flies in from the north.

And knowing that as soon as anything went wrong the dElfs would leave their "slow" allies to rot and/or if things didn't go wrong, the thanks would be delivered in betrayal not long, if not immediately, after.

In short, why would anyone in Allanak care to help someone from a part of the world that (a) holds no bearing whatsoever on their survival or advancement, (b) is generally an enemy and never an ally,  and (c) resides in FlyOverCountry, except you don't even really need to FlyOver?

Answer the WIFM questions and you'll have a good start on how to get the rest of the Known to care about what's going on.

Helpful Hint: If the answer is "after it kills us it will come for you"?  Allanak has historically proven to be pretty Ok with that BigBad breaking itself on you first.