discussions on the renewed Arena activities

[650Booger]

Hi all!

I know I personally have been having a real hoot enjoying the arena games in their new encarnation with reigning and penned gladiators.  I hope you all have been too!  I thought I'd open a thread to get some commentary on what people feel is working, and maybe suggestions or ideas for... well anything arena related!  pretty vague, I know.

I'll start.

We need more penned gladiators.  If you enjoy watching the games, you should make a penned gladiator and keep the ball rolling, so that we can keep doing this.

[Riev]

Feels like a Recruitment Thread.

However, I will admit I haven't been around for most of the Gladiator activities, and my offpeak-ness makes it hard for me to actually show up.

It seems like being a gladiator, even a Penned Gladiator, is just such a restricting role and even if you play it the best you can... you're just applying for a role you might only play for 2 RL hours. Reigning Gladiators come onto the scene, and disappear, so quickly that there's hardly any time to buy them cool stuff or make friends with them. Why would I buy Fale's Gladiator an ale if next week they're going to die? Fale's not going to know I bought them an ale.

[racurtne]

Mortality rate of pcs I have bought ale for = damn near 100%.

[nauta]

Gladiators are an awesome idea.  Here are some ideas (very small, very practical):

1. Have the arena bells chime after each match to catch the stragglers.  If possible, an NPC who moves from arena to the Gaj and shouts 'Arena games! Follow me to arena games!' would be great for newbs.

2. Parade the gladiators in the stand. This is primarily for the reason that you can't actually 'look' at the gladiator in the sands, so this would give people a chance to see what they look like.

3. Gambler NPC.  I know this could be PC driven, but it'd be a cool little script to write.  I'd use it.

4. Gladiator PC mingling.  This happens, but it's a much more meaningful game if you've actually met the gladiator PC once or twice at the Gaj & Gladiator.

[Riev]

Gambling would be great if it were PC driven. I know I've tried it a couple times, but it never seems to stick.
You need to be around when the games are going on to catch straggling bets.
You need to know who is fighting who in the weeks leading up to a match to get bets from people who may not be able to attend.
You need to have the ability to collect on the coin of those who were wrong.
You need to make sure you have enough coin to cover those who win.

Its a real lot, as compared to a simple scripted gambler that roams the stands and allows you to bet 50 1 or bet 50 2, for gladiator 1 and 2 respectively, and then turn in your 'mark' at the end of the fights when the gambler script is updated with the winner.

[WithSprinkles]

Sounds like a gambling based MMH in Allanak would be interesting for someone to focus on if they had the drive. Chits to turn in, folks running bets and all. Not just for arena matches, but for lots of things. Maybe the more clandestine organizations lean on them a bit and yeah, the city, but that might be fun for someone.

I'd thought of asking after a Pen Gladiator, but hesitated because of plain inexperience. Nothing to really fix that, I suppose, though maybe a throwaway like a Pen Gladiator would be a boon rather than something to fear.

And yeah, try ringing the bells once after every match once the events begin. I'd personally steer clear of wanting to have NPCs do stuff live people can do. If you want someone shouting about events, there are definitely PCs who would do it for coin, food or water.

[650Booger]

2. Parade the gladiators in the stand. This is primarily for the reason that you can't actually 'look' at the gladiator in the sands, so this would give people a chance to see what they look like.

just snipping this quote for a +1.  part of the fun of making a penned gladiator is getting to write a new description!  and I love writing descriptions for characters.

[nauta]

If I were to do a gambler PC (and I do think it'd be pretty complicated), I'd try to get in on the gladiator sparring sessions, learn the odds, and run those odds around.  I'd hire the Guild to ensure folks paid up, and the Byn to guard my stash.

Also, if this doesn't happen already: gladiators could spar in the arena on off-days and anyone who happens to be around can watch.

[Veselka]

Add food sellers and booze sellers to the stands, too. Cheap booze and food would be a great reason to show up.

I would apply for a Penned Gladiator but I only have so much time to play the game as it is.

[650Booger]

I would apply for a Penned Gladiator but I only have so much time to play the game as it is.

(continuing my shameless recruitment drive) I don't view this as a reason not to make one.  Having a penned gladiator on standby literally costs you nothing.  you don't have to spend any time playing on it, at all.  not available for the scheduled arena events?  that's fine, don't show up!  just have the pen in your hip pocket just in case.  I mean, why not?

[Veselka]

I would apply for a Penned Gladiator but I only have so much time to play the game as it is.

(continuing my shameless recruitment drive) I don't view this as a reason not to make one.  Having a penned gladiator on standby literally costs you nothing.  you don't have to spend any time playing on it, at all.  not available for the scheduled arena events?  that's fine, don't show up!  just have the pen in your hip pocket just in case.  I mean, why not?

It's one more thing to think about. I don't have the headspace for it and wouldn't enjoy it. But, I agree it likely applies to others.

Now that i'm not on my phone -- I also don't like to think people are obligated to do anything besides try and have fun playing the game, and make it fun for others. For some people that might mean making a penned gladiator, for others, it may be showing up to the games and participating in that way. Neither way is wrong, and if you don't have an audience, no one will be there to enjoy what is being done.

I personally get a little AFKish during Gladiator Games. I enjoy them in spirit and in theory, but the actual playthrough of a gladiator game is only entertaining if I have other people my PC knows sitting nearby to hob-knob with. Especially when playing a combat PC, it isn't that entertaining to watch people make mincemeat of each other over and over again.

This is also why I think having cheap drink and food vendors loaded up just for the games (so they aren't around all the time for people to take advantage of) would drive people to come and to stay for the games.

[Sedora]

Parading gladiators through the stands has a good and bad side to its coin. The good side being Reigning, the bad side being Penned. We'll start with penned.

Penned gladiators are known criminals, captured enemies of the City, the ne'er-do-wells who are considered scum but are kept alive for the purpose of entertaining the masses with their demise. Realistically on an IC level, the investment required to 'show off' a penned gladiator in person far outweighs their value to the city or to Borsail, and people who watch games shouldn't really want to be stuck in front of a potential loose cannon who could snap at anytime and decide they want to escape and take out anybody between themselves and the exit. Its a huge risk, which is why penned are only ever seen on the Arena sands, while Reigning are out and about.

Reigning are another story entirely, they are disciplined enough to be allowed to walk the streets alone, and they are meant to go out and mingle, so seeing them in the stands before their matches would be totally legit I think. I've seen them get out and interact quite a lot, though, so maybe people are just on different schedules or missing them.


I'm kinda confused about the 'they die too often' stigma, though. Maybe it was that way in the beginning, or I've missed some things, but I've seen the same Gladiators over and over, especially the penned ones, for over 3-4 games now. And with games every 2 weeks, these secondary penned PCs are surviving longer than some people keep main PCs, and they're in a 'you are here specifically to die' role.

[nauta]

RE: Penned.  True, you wouldn't parade a criminal.  But to get that coded 'look', you could have them chain-ganged up at the entrance so PCs can have a look at them en route to the stands -- maybe toss some rotted petoch fruit at them.

Although, the ideal solution would be to code something into the existing arena code allowing people in the stands to 'look' at the people in the arena.  I still don't know what a gaj looks like.

[Veselka]

RE: Penned.  True, you wouldn't parade a criminal.  But to get that coded 'look', you could have them chain-ganged up at the entrance so PCs can have a look at them en route to the stands -- maybe toss some rotted petoch fruit at them.

Although, the ideal solution would be to code something into the existing arena code allowing people in the stands to 'look' at the people in the arena.  I still don't know what a gaj looks like.

Or hung in Gibbets outside on Arena Road before the game. Sounds pretty Allanak to me.

[Sedora]

Or hung in Gibbets outside on Arena Road before the game. Sounds pretty Allanak to me.

That does sound very Allanak, lol.

RE: Penned.  True, you wouldn't parade a criminal.  But to get that coded 'look', you could have them chain-ganged up at the entrance so PCs can have a look at them en route to the stands -- maybe toss some rotted petoch fruit at them.

That's true enough. I had a link to a player artwork of a Gaj at one point, I'll see if I can track it down and I'll PM you the link!



I'd also like to reach out from the other side of the tracks here a bit. I've played in the clan, and not as a penned. It takes a lot of coordinated effort to do what already gets done with Gladiators, both in the Games and publicly on the PC level. But in all honesty, the playerbase response is somewhat lacking. I'm talking on a general level, not completely. There are some PCs who are diehard onboard with the system and appropriately fawn over and gawk at and act like they're going to die if they don't get the attention and time investment of a Gladiator. But those people are in the minority. And I don't mean that should be everyone's reaction, but there doesn't seem to be a large percentage of the playerbase that wants to invest in the concept as much as the Gladiators themselves invest in the concept, and the Gladiators can't do it on their own. Just like everyone else expects on Glads to stick themselves out there and entertain and do Glad stuff, Glads depend on and expect people to actually give a shit about what they're doing and want to be a part of it.

We all have to work together to make the game enjoyable. Its going to take effort from all sides of the fence to get the concept up off the ground and rolling farther. The Gladiators throw themselves out there a lot, but it wears on you when it feels like wasted effort for a long enough period of time.

[Veselka]

Well, here are a few questions:

1. What about the current gladiator system doesn't seem to appeal to players (both in the clan, and observing the clan)?

2. What about being a Gladiator isn't being fulfilled by surrounding PCs/Player participation?

3. What is this 'working together' you speak of? I mean to say, how are Gladiators/Player/PC population working together well, and how are they not?



My personal thoughts are gladiator roles are kind of like slave roles. Everyone seems to clamor for wanting them, and then when they get them, pull an Andy Kaufman and say 'I changed my mind!'. Or otherwise don't put their money where their mouth is. Not to mention the very vocal GDB Users don't necessarily reflect the actual wants/desires of the entire playerbase.

I really like having them around, especially the Reining Gladiators. But I wonder if the roles shouldn't be for a limited time, or if even Reigning Gladiators should die more often. From the outside looking in, it feels a bit like an endless role in that once some Gladiators get enough training, they're never going to die or be sacrificed for death, as they are also huge political and financial investments.

We only have so many people playing the game, and of that small pool, only so many people interested in playing Gladiators. That makes for a very small pool to pick and choose from, so if the turnover rate is too high, the pool will likely dry up, and the Arena will go belly up.

So -- I very much thank the players sticking it out and playing these roles. You are definitely appreciated, and the Staff that took the time to put together this new clan/group/playstyle should be congratulated too. Sure -- It could probably use some tweaking, but that could be said of probably every single detail/group/clan in the game.

[lairos]

I have been reading and debating to weigh in on this thread or not and decided to give some input and insight. Here are some of the follow up things I have to add.

1. Still new: These roles are still changing and evolving. They are far different now then when they were even first released. There was a lot of talk and discussion that people wanted the chance to play such roles, but there are few who seem willing once actually offered the chance and it becomes all talk. I will say the system is not perfect, but without people in those roles and helping it evolve it can't and won't get any better. It does have it's restrictions, yes, but it also has its own set of rewards and it's something different.

2. Longevity: Since the start of this, I have seen not only Reigning, but Penned Gladiators (who are really meant to die and be recreated) live longer than many main pc's. I don't assume it's fun 100% of the time, but as with any role there are ups and downs.

3. Effort Vs Reward: I see a lot of requests for more things to be done such as trying coordinate chained penned (The scum and criminals) outside before the games and ringing the bells after every match. I know these requests sound simple and cool, but the amount of coordination and effort that goes into what is already happening is pretty intense and there is a ton going on behind the scenes that adding one more thing to do or remember makes it very difficult. There are those die hard fans and people who really put effort into this to make it happen, but I will tell you the number of them is small. Honestly, if everyone wants to see more and have more happen then more people need to put in some effort both OOC and IC and get involved, be supportive and even take up a penned gladiator if nothing else.

4. Why does it matter?: Even a few people can make a difference. A few people putting forth effort can be the difference between a make or break. Staff and other players involved have a lot of things they could be doing, but are trying to entertain and bring something to the game. If the involvement is not there why would anyone want to put in even more effort?

What I would like to see? More people involved and making them the big deal they are made to be. The more involved, the more things happen. Everyone involved so far has been amazing and have been a massive help to get them where they are currently.

[Sedora]

What I would like to see? More people involved and making them the big deal they are made to be. The more involved, the more things happen. Everyone involved so far has been amazing and have been a massive help to get them where they are currently.

I also think that this creates a good back-scratching scenario. The more outsiders get involved and make Gladiators a big deal, the more inspired people are going to be to actually play Gladiators. One hand washes the other, so to speak. The system becomes its own sustenance, but it takes collaboration.

[650Booger]

great discussion so far, folks!   

First off, I think reigning gladiators should be the ultimate F-me characters.  they should be able to pick anyone they want and get in the sack with them.  this should lead to plots.  Also, I think reigning gladiators should be more invested in MCBing (okay, maybe not the M part) both eachother, their owners, and common folks.

as for the immortality of gladiators once they have won a few matches...  I have observed this and thought on it.  But surely we can devise scenarios where even the most twinked champion would meet their doom?

full disclosure, I have played one of these roles and know how absolutely dificult it is.  props to Sedora!

[nauta]

I had another idea or two.  So one thing I've noticed is that people aren't entirely sure how to interact with gladiators.  Again, just so everyone knows there is a nice brand new help page:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanaki%20Gladiators

It spells out pretty much exactly what the common masses (and nobles) would do if they saw a gladiator on the street.  Here's the relevant paragraph:

Yet, they are hailed and admired by the populace, both commoner and noble. The heroes of the city, many will give them gifts. They do not have to pay for their meals or drinks in most establishments in the city. They are given gifts from the poorest of commoner to the richest of noble and everywhere in between. It isn't uncommon for even a rival House to still favor a particular Gladiator and bestow them gifts or favors. Some believe that buying a gladiator a gift is not just an opportunity to rub elbows with greatness, but a way to gain good luck.

However, I know that when I first saw them I didn't realize this help file was there, and also sometimes I don't realize that someone is a gladiator (hint: the Borsail slave collar).  So to that end, two suggestions:

1. An sdesc 'gladiator' just like templars have the sdesc 'templar' to clue people in.  This might help newbies type 'help gladiator' to get a feel for how to RP around them.

2. An NPC mob with the sdesc of 'a crowd of ogling fans are here, ogling a gladiator' (or something).  The gladiator could even order this mob around to give up cheers, or there'd be scripted echoes from it, or whatever.  During my interactions with gladiators over the last few months, one thing that happens is the gladiator (and hopefully other PCs in the room once they catch on) will include the virtual world a lot more, e.g., em cheers at ~gladiator, lifting a fist as the crowds swarm !gladiator.  So a coded NPC isn't necessary, but it'd certainly be a nice little addition instead of having to always rely on emotes.  (And, if you're like me, I'm a bit hesitant to include too much of the virtual world in my emotes, just as a pracitce.)

3. A coded echo in the Gaj.  You could even add another coded echo to the Gaj like the one about the gemmed coming in and sitting and everyone grumbling and moving to another table.  But this time about a gladiator coming in and everyone giving cheers.  This again clues new players in on how the virtual world (and by extension: their PCs) could interact with gladiators.

[Riev]

I'm definitely behind the borsail slave collar adding "gladiator" to replace the last word in an sdesc like it does for Templars.

The crowd-NPC, like a guard NPC for nobles, would be rather interesting, especially as these roles ARE still sponsored roles. My assumption is that they would be trusted to utilize this "small entourage of commoner fans" appropriately.

I don't know about the echo, as such, but I think it WOULD help if there were added echoes around the city that mention Gladiators, if only as a reminder.

I'm for them, Nauta.

[Sorry]

I didn't want the idea of being able to look at the penned there to get lost because it's a really good point, at the moment most people never get to see the descriptions they probably put a lot of work into, and what their outfit/tattoos are etc Sometimes they die without ever getting really "seen"!

I thought I should mention you can do "L in arena" to see who is there and where, and there's no way to know you can type that other than being told on OOC at the moment, I'm not sure how many people would type Help arena without knowing there is one though either, but it might help

Making "L 2.tattooed arena" work could be cool, maybe it could be considered a bit awkward since the standard in the game is for you not to be able to look at someone in detail from distance, but then again room distances are not always the same, especially for the larger buildings, so I guess it could be ok realistically.

[valeria]

What if there was an area where dead gladiators' bodies were laid out for public viewing, before being burned/thrown on the pile/turned into the gruel that feeds other gladiators/whatever? I think that would be very cool.

[Sorry]

Only problem there is the gear would have already been taken off for re-use/selling so you'd still never get to see their special items/lucky charms/piercings as you would if they were showed off while alive before (the gibbet idea sounded great actually, I could see a lot of RP happening in the lead up to it starting there, with the penned all talking themselves up in front of the crowd and disparaging their opponents, breeds, gickers etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r36bKjBAdb0

[Renenutet]

I am impartial, perfectly impartial.

The one thing I'd like to see happen that hasn't happened or at least not thoroughly, is people financially exploiting the games. I can think of so many ways to build a fortune and/or a minor merchant house on profiting from the gladiators and Bloodball. No one has done this yet. What gives?

So far we've had amazing luck with gladiators. People have been excellent sports where the docs are restrictive. Every has jumped headlong into the role as written. Frankly I'm not surprised. You guys are amazing in general.

As for the concerns that this is almost a slave role. There is no almost about it. Gladiators are all slaves. This role is great at first. About the time the rules start to chafe, people die. So, that's kind of perfect.

So again, I would say, without any bias or stake in the whole thing that gladiators are the best thing ever!

[Renenutet]

Also some of your suggestions are things I think we will implement.

[Riev]

Making money off the games isn't out of the question, but for all my ideas, I am not able to attend any of the Gladiator Games.

Making bets is a dangerous thing in the game world, because we can only interact with PCs for betting, and the turnover rate and ability to "not log in for a week" makes debt collecting difficult and adds more frustration than content to the world.

I can think of 3 other ideas to make coin off them, off the top of my head, but they all require either attendance at the Games, or the "right" PCs around to collaborate.

[Veselka]

I am impartial, perfectly impartial.

The one thing I'd like to see happen that hasn't happened or at least not thoroughly, is people financially exploiting the games. I can think of so many ways to build a fortune and/or a minor merchant house on profiting from the gladiators and Bloodball. No one has done this yet. What gives?

So far we've had amazing luck with gladiators. People have been excellent sports where the docs are restrictive. Every has jumped headlong into the role as written. Frankly I'm not surprised. You guys are amazing in general.

As for the concerns that this is almost a slave role. There is no almost about it. Gladiators are all slaves. This role is great at first. About the time the rules start to chafe, people die. So, that's kind of perfect.

So again, I would say, without any bias or stake in the whole thing that gladiators are the best thing ever!

The main reason people haven't done this is gambling is a pretty tricky system to figure out.

Gambling between PCs is usually 'I bet you 500 coins that Soandso will win'. The other party says 'Okay'. If Soandso wins, the offerer pays the gambler 500 coins. That's a 1:1.

Where real money comes in from gambling is things like 10:1, 20:1. 100:1. Those kinds of odds are really difficult to keep track of, unless you are a Casino with lots, and lots of money.

Doing a lottery or ticket buying system is also tricky because no literacy. Posting odds, also difficult because of no literacy.

I posted further thoughts here, Renenutet, let me know what you think:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53221.0.html

[pucklepie]

Why are odds difficult to keep track of?

[chrisdcoulombe]

There is nothing I love more than junking coins to fuel ginka, but I feel really uninformed when it comes time to gamble on arena games.  There is no card to say who is going to be fighting, no odds, no records of their current wins.  No information other than it is every other Saturday.  Who is fighting?  No one knows.  It would be nice if at least some of that info was posted here or on an in game board or with the npc Arena man that knows everything about every gladiator.  Anything to cut through the vale of vaguery would make it more enjoyable for me.

[ironeyes]

There is nothing I love more than junking coins to fuel ginka, but I feel really uninformed when it comes time to gamble on arena games.  There is no card to say who is going to be fighting, no odds, no records of their current wins.  No information other than it is every other Saturday.  Who is fighting?  No one knows.  It would be nice if at least some of that info was posted here or on an in game board or with the npc Arena man that knows everything about every gladiator.  Anything to cut through the vale of vaguery would make it more enjoyable for me.

There could be NPCs or a board or other stuff to facilitate this, sure. Arena events are sometimes a little chaotic, though. Last minute changes and decisions get made. I'm not sure anything can replace quick-thinking, fleet-footed PCs running around to deal with gambling.

[deskoft]

The problem is fights are never known before the event.

[ironeyes]

Gladiator PCs may or may not log in for the event, though. It's hard to plan it.

[Feco]

I tried to run gambling on arena games with my Guilder, Red.  It was a nightmare.

Too few coins and too spur of the moment to turn a profit.  Had to constantly change odds to try to keep it profitable, and it's honestly just too fast paced.

He did turn a profit... By stealing the sids sometimes.  But it wasn't a viable honest operation.

[Veselka]

Why are odds difficult to keep track of?

Mostly because unless you're playing craps, the odds aren't fixed, they are fluid. At a horse race, they shift up until the moment of the race, depending on who's betting on what, blinders changed at the last second, removing pieces of the saddle, all of these play into the odds.

I agree that the Gladiators should be paraded around -- Their equipment, their confidence, and their spirit should all be assessed by people betting, just as you have the opportunity to look at the horses you are going to bet on right before the race in person.

[cshoov]

The easiest way to make profit as a bookmaker would be to have the sum of the probabilities of all the possible outcomes exceed. So if we have a veteran gladiator against two rookies in a last-one-standing, the bookie would want to list the odds as something like 2:3 for the vet and 3:1 for each of the rookies. No matter what the outcome is, the bookie makes money.

However, I'm not sure how the arena fights are arranged. If it's 1v1 to the death in every fight, it's going to be hard to convince people to bet anything other than a 1:1. If there's different types of fights and they aren't all to the death, there could be more variety in the kinds of bets allowed and also might allow for a fixed fight, etc.

[deskoft]

There's the problem, also, that when you know who is fighting, you have at most 3-5 minutes to handle any potential bets.

[BadSkeelz]

Gladiator fights that are PC v NPC (which I take is most of them) are also inherently a crap shoot.

[Sorry]

♥

[Wday]

It would be cool if there was an npc you bought a ticket from but worked like giants fist (bet so and so) and then afrer the match you cashed it is.

[Sorry]

RE: Penned.  True, you wouldn't parade a criminal.  But to get that coded 'look', you could have them chain-ganged up at the entrance so PCs can have a look at them en route to the stands -- maybe toss some rotted petoch fruit at them.

Although, the ideal solution would be to code something into the existing arena code allowing people in the stands to 'look' at the people in the arena.  I still don't know what a gaj looks like.

Or hung in Gibbets outside on Arena Road before the game. Sounds pretty Allanak to me.

the gibbet idea sounded great actually, I could see a lot of RP happening in the lead up to it starting there, with the penned all talking themselves up in front of the crowd and disparaging their opponents, breeds, gickers etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r36bKjBAdb0

♥

mad martigan gibbet
gibbet martigan mad
martigan gibbet mad

[number13]

>you should make a penned gladiator

How?

[Sorry]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53225.new.html#new