Attention Walmart Shoppers;

[senseofeven]

I've been around for awhile, I've played the consumer and I've played the producer, and I feel like there must be some growing trends that aren't really being discussed when it comes to these kinds of roles.

For example, GMH family/sales people have some kind of power to not be killed too easily, but have what I'd imagine being a pretty high turnover, why is that? Is it the stress from being squashed between staff-side and player-side?

What is a realistic expectation of "presence" when it comes to the peak and non-peak, would you deem acceptable to push any kind of conflict or pressure just because of a lack of "presence"? Are those expectations just ridiculous and simply the driving issue to force the player away from those roles?

Obviously, they took that role with the best of intentions, to interact with the player base, to produce products, to take the balance of power from a different angle, to help provide service/materials/items, but at some point, does it go from game play to a night/part-time job when there's so little reward for in game "customer service"? What would be some ways or suggestion to actually retain sales players?

Leaving out any REAL LIFE experience here, because it does not apply though I notice the RL consumerism attitudes that seep into the game.

[Delirium]

Long story short; people take this game way too seriously. They forget that behind that PC is a player with real life responsibilities.

Yes, it may seem a bit odd that it takes half of an in-game month to get you what you want in an ideal world where every character is present all the time. But that is not and never should be the case. It's a game. NO ONE can be around that much, and sometimes playtimes don't sync up, delaying what would have been an easy transfer. You don't have to take this IC.

Adjust your in-character expectations; this is a world where resources are supposed to be scarce, despite the potential abundance created by an 8-hour-a-day-every-day player. Allow for the time it might take to create/gather/obtain what you need.

This is a sore point of mine because I've seen it done and had it done to me and it literally ruins an otherwise engaging PC.

If you're hassling a mercantile PC over getting your sweet loot NAO or complaining that they "haven't been around much"...

Just stop. Just. Stop. Your character will survive, the world will go on, and you will find a way to exist. Trust me.

[Grapes]

Long story short; people take this game way too seriously. They forget that behind that PC is a player with real life responsibilities.

Yes, it may seem a bit odd that it takes half of an in-game month to get you what you want in an ideal world where every character is present all the time. But that is not and never should be the case. It's a game. NO ONE can be around that much, and sometimes playtimes don't sync up, delaying what would have been an easy transfer. You don't have to take this IC.

Adjust your in-character expectations; this is a world where resources are supposed to be scarce, despite the potential abundance created by an 8-hour-a-day-every-day player. Allow for the time it might take to create/gather/obtain what you need.

This is a sore point of mine because I've seen it done and had it done to me and it literally ruins an otherwise engaging PC.

If you're hassling a mercantile PC over getting your sweet loot NAO or complaining that they "haven't been around much"...

Just stop. Just. Stop. Your character will survive, the world will go on, and you will find a way to exist. Trust me.

QFT

[Riev]

It does bring up a point between Agents/Merchants being vending machines, and whether that's even a fair way to see it.

I like being a facilitator, and if someone needs a suit of armor, I like being the person they have to come to. But there isn't a LOT of room for conflict in that. Maybe you charge them more, maybe you take some extra time because you owe Fale a new sword... but that's about it.

If people "haven't been around much", I'm going to complain NOT because I wanted that sword, but because there is no indication that they took a week off the game, or quit playing altogether, or that RL issues are really keeping them from logging in. I'm just supposed to assume they're "around, but not for me". Its frustrating, and the complaining IC might at least lead to someone "wanting to help" and taking over responsibilities.

[Delirium]

There's a world of difference between 'hey, what's so and so up to, I haven't run into them much' and being told "oh, they're off dealing with <ic excuse here>" and going "hey, I haven't seen so and so, I'm going to take this IC and make their life miserable."

There's plenty of room for conflict in an agent/merchant role without having to resort to punishing someone for low playtime.

edited to be a little more diplomatic.

[Grapes]

It does bring up a point between Agents/Merchants being vending machines, and whether that's even a fair way to see it.

I like being a facilitator, and if someone needs a suit of armor, I like being the person they have to come to. But there isn't a LOT of room for conflict in that. Maybe you charge them more, maybe you take some extra time because you owe Fale a new sword... but that's about it.

If people "haven't been around much", I'm going to complain NOT because I wanted that sword, but because there is no indication that they took a week off the game, or quit playing altogether, or that RL issues are really keeping them from logging in. I'm just supposed to assume they're "around, but not for me". Its frustrating, and the complaining IC might at least lead to someone "wanting to help" and taking over responsibilities.

Imagine putting yourself on the other end of the exchange. Imagine you just decide you can't handle it anymore, you're not enjoying the role due to the constant barrage, and you store, then open your eyes and ask yourself, if the merchant gets irritated ICly and decides never to sell to me again (and OOCly just takes a job far away from you by storage), how then will they ever get that thing they want so bad?

Also, nobody can step up and sell to whoever they want to without ICly breaking rules which have been made clear to their PC. It comes with consequences and once a PC gets burned by those, they will likely be hesitant to do that barring exceptional circumstances, with good IC reason.

[Riev]

It does bring up a point between Agents/Merchants being vending machines, and whether that's even a fair way to see it.

I like being a facilitator, and if someone needs a suit of armor, I like being the person they have to come to. But there isn't a LOT of room for conflict in that. Maybe you charge them more, maybe you take some extra time because you owe Fale a new sword... but that's about it.

If people "haven't been around much", I'm going to complain NOT because I wanted that sword, but because there is no indication that they took a week off the game, or quit playing altogether, or that RL issues are really keeping them from logging in. I'm just supposed to assume they're "around, but not for me". Its frustrating, and the complaining IC might at least lead to someone "wanting to help" and taking over responsibilities.

Imagine putting yourself on the other end of the exchange. Imagine you just decide you can't handle it anymore, you're not enjoying the role due to the constant barrage, and you store, then open your eyes and ask yourself, if the merchant gets irritated ICly and decides never to sell to me again (and OOCly just takes a job far away from you by storage), how then will they ever get that thing they want so bad?

Also, nobody can step up and sell to whoever they want to without ICly breaking rules which have been made clear to their PC. It comes with consequences and once a PC gets burned by those, they will likely be hesitant to do that barring exceptional circumstances, with good IC reason.

In those situations, I place more blame on administration and communication to/from players. If you have someone in the role of filling orders and whatnot (something many of us consider kind of a key reason to have MERCHANT HOUSES in the first place), and they stop playing or decide to store, there should be some sort of a backup.

I've seen some "trainee merchants" who can at least fill orders for the rabble, but they aren't trained to deal with the Templarate/Nobility yet, just to alleviate some of the issue. The house has dozens of Traders and Merchants and Agents, but we have no access to them for a RL month while people sort things out.

I don't exactly understand the first thing you said. I DO agree that people who take "this player has not been able to play a lot lately, so I am going to take that IC" is a bit too far. I may get frustrated at Kadius as a whole, when I can't find a Kadian Merchant, but I don't like... send assassins after them for it.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I wish there were more tools at the disposal of merchants to circumvent the gap of low or not matching playtimes.

Maybe a page slave that acts as an answering machine or something? And maybe a shack where the merchant could set order price and for whom the order is for. Then a person could just go and buy it like a shop.

list

The man with shorn hair has for sale:
An order for Amos for 300 coins
An order for Dodger for 860 coins
An order for Dodger for 200 coins
An order for The mauve-eyed man for 1400 coins
Etc...

That's just an idea. I agree that people should be more aware that merchant folk are voluntarily trying to help your PC find cool junk.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Dar]

Is being forced into a vendor position the only real reason why there is such a high turn over to their roles? It's not inability to get anything interesting done, or perhaps a complete asynchrony with player's expectations and the reality of what they are capable of?

In my observation, plenty of GMH people who were creative and could create plots that were not heavily into world changing events, lasted a really long time. While people dead set on world changing events and continuously getting barred from them get discouraged.

It's also harder for people with low playtimes. An indie hunter with low play time doesnt have this problem. During off peak, he goes out and plays with the game itself. While a purely social role that's heavily reliant on other people ends up always playing catch up with others who play more often and on peak. That is disheartening and leads to storage.

At least that was my observation. The whole vending machine thing is while annoying, is not paramount.

[Delirium]

"I want fancy stuff and can't get it" doesn't exactly seem like a problem that needs to be solved on an OOC level.

More like... people need to adjust their perspective on what their scrubby commoner should expect to buy without some patience and connections to the right kind of people. So someone's busy ... maybe they're busy dealing with important business.

And nobles? You have way more interesting shit to do than worry about having 1,000 silky things. You can buy stuff from the NPC vendors and be completely fashionable from an in-character perspective. I get wanting some special stuff but in the end all you're doing is impressing the player not the PC, because the shit for sale in the bazaar is just as nice if not as OOCly rare.

Maybe spend that money on pushing plots rather than buying a whole bunch of custom gear for your eq slots.

If you really do need something nice or want to pursue a relationship with the GMHs, then... don't be a dick about playtimes.

[Grapes]

Anything good is worth waiting for. If you can get it right now, great, but understand those are exceptional circumstances. If you want the item badly enough, you will find a way to arrange something to where your playtimes line up on an agreed upon date and time, as is convenient for the mercantile PC, and try to be there. This does not always work out, because IC/OOC circumstances. I believe the title of this thread is a subtle reminder that Zalanthas is not technologically advanced enough to support the concept of a department store. Most people cannot read or write, sticky-notes haven't been invented either, much less computer systems.

You do not really "need" that item. It would be nice to have, but your PC is dealing with a Great Merchant House. Emphasis on the word "Great". You are waiting on the highest quality goods in the known world, not some assembly-line knock-off, but hand-made masterpieces. Plenty of lore built into the setting to justify a logistics nightmare. Until the moons and stars align and the item is imbued with rare oils from a fruit that only grows on one island in the sea of silt, you will simply have to wait.

[WithSprinkles]

I don't have a lot of experience with it all, but when I was briefly handling stuff like this, at first I was panicked and running all over and constantly fielding questions from people about where their stuff was and this, that and the other.

And then one day I realized that no matter how much people bugged me, if I didn't have their stuff, I wouldn't have it today, tomorrow or the next day and.. HEY, I wanted to plot and do stuff without people constantly in my brain asking for their stuff every other hour. You know how annoying it is to be whispering sweet nothings to someone and have someone else nagging about an order they placed a RL day ago? So!

Applying some logic to it, I told people to have their orders in by a certain RL day each week. If they didn't have their order in by that day, they wouldn't get their stuff by the time orders USUALLY came in the next week or so. It really worked getting people on a schedule and people seemed to swing with it well, especially if I started getting snippy. And if I got too many pestering prods from the same person, they got price hikes or slow delivery times. I did rush orders if the situation was important enough to warrant it, but convenience fees applied or favors were expected. It was pretty much a smooth system and I kept records of who got what and when and for how much.

I made a LOT of sid on that character, that I ended up pumping right back into the clan for plots, my subordinates and other stuff. (shrugs) I LOVED the customer service aspect of GMH life. Just have to claim your time.

[Vex]

Is being forced into a vendor position

No one is FORCED into it.

You have to apply for these limited access roles, and hope that you get it. If you don't want to be in a role, where you are the sole means for everyone else in the game, to access what that clan has to offer, you shouldn't have asked for the role. If people are complaining, it doesn't mean the people complaining are wrong, or being mean, mean bullies.

GMH merchants are not victims, and there is no one being forced to play one. There is no consequence for retiring if it's too much work, not fun anymore, or the player doesn't have time to commit because of RL obligations, which everyone has to contend with, sooner or later. There is no excuse for being unhappy, in a role, because you have to choose to be in one and can leave it, at your leisure.

When people complain merchant Amos is bad at his job, sometimes it's because merchant Amos is bad at his job. If people complain merchant Amos is never around, sometimes it's because merchant Amos is never around. Or when he is around, he spends his time having sex with bar sluts, instead of doing what he was given the role for, in the first place.

Not everyone is Amos, but he isn't few and far between, either.

Sometimes, complaints are completely warranted.

[Miradus]

That's certainly the way I see it.

You KNOW what your playtime is going to be like, almost all of the time. You PICKED a role which is demanding in playtime but specifically gates everyone else's access to certain activities.

If you don't have much time to play, then delegate or step aside. Instead what I usually see is someone saying, "I want to hold on to all the power but I log about an hour a week."

[Grapes]

Is being forced into a vendor position

No one is FORCED into it.

You have to apply for these limited access roles, and hope that you get it. If you don't want to be in a role, where you are the sole means for everyone else in the game, to access what that clan has to offer, you shouldn't have asked for the role. If people are complaining, it doesn't mean the people complaining are wrong, or being mean, mean bullies.

GMH merchants are not victims, and there is no one being forced to play one. There is no consequence for retiring if it's too much work, not fun anymore, or the player doesn't have time to commit because of RL obligations, which everyone has to contend with, sooner or later. There is no excuse for being unhappy, in a role, because you have to choose to be in one and can leave it, at your leisure.

When people complain merchant Amos is bad at his job, sometimes it's because merchant Amos is bad at his job. If people complain merchant Amos is never around, sometimes it's because merchant Amos is never around. When he is around, he spends his time having sex with bar sluts, instead of doing what he was given the role for, in the first place.

Not everyone is Amos, but he isn't few and far between, either.

Sometimes, complaints are completely warranted.

Number one, you don't HAVE to apply for the role, you can be promoted into it, adopted into the family, and, if you're awesome enough, possibly even make Agent before you die of old age. Number two, Merchant Houses are there to represent what would otherwise be yet another "virtual" part of the gameworld. Number three, Merchant Houses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, with or without reason. Number four, expecting players to ruin their emotional well being as well as their sleep/work schedule, and quality time with their families (if they have them), to shirk off real life complications is unrealistic. Number five, vending machines are an anachronism.

Look at it this way, when a player is logged out, much like in the Byn, or in any other clan, they're following orders and doing clan business. Merchant Amos has to spend most of the week doing sweatshop labor in the back of a jewelry store. When he gets some time off, you think he's going to spend all that time working? Let's look at it this way...

Amos is at the Gaj making out with some slut (slut and slutshaming are an anachronism in Zalanthas). Do you think, maybe, Amos has to, walk all the way across town to get there, and is trying to squeeze some me time in with catching up on local rumors which may potentially be vital to house business, eavesdropping on conversations (house business of course) as well as making new contacts (old ones died as is the pattern) so they can potentially know what is going on? That just maybe, all is not as it appears and they are, indeed, multi-tasking, while making it known that, yes, the Kuracci compound didn't burn down in the dead of night, trapping and killing everyone?

Have you considered Amos might not have the authority to do the thing you want him to get done with? That he's waiting on the right people to be around so he can pass your message on?

Have you considered Amos might want to get some RP in with other PCs and enjoy the game as opposed to meeting the whims of every Tom, Dick, and Harry on those days they get some time off? Are mercantile employees seriously expected to come home from a soul-crushing day in a department store with irate, whiny customers, simply to play a game where they RP through that exact experience, despite the fact that such experiences ought to be the exception, not the rule, and the characters doing the bugging should be grateful they're even being listened to at all, instead of utilizing the opportunity to twink expel?

[James de Monet]

Source:  I played a GMH Merchant for about 3 RL years.

Being a House Merchant (not an Agent, that's not the same thing) in this game is a role unlike any other.  If you haven't played one, you aren't in a position to judge them.  This also applies to people who app one for the first time.  Most of them don't know what they're getting into, because it's not like other roles.  So, no, they very likely did not know what they were signing up for when they requested the role.  And there is a consequence to retiring.  One, the house is without a Merchant until someone else takes up the mantle.  And two, it means consciously throwing in the towel, which some humans don't like doing.

That being said, some logic applies here.  If you don't have at least 3-4 hours a week during peakish times to put directly toward merchanting, you will probably not be terribly successful at the role (though anything and anyone is better than nothing or no one!).  And there are plenty of things to complain about regarding merchants that are totally fair game: if you don't like the way they talk to your PC, if you don't like the selections they find for you, if you don't like the other people they deal with, if you don't like the prices, if you don't like going through their assistant, if you want them to come to you, if you don't like the way the clothes make you look, if you don't like the way the armor chafes, if you don't like the fact that sand leaks through the neck of the cloak, etc. etc.  etc. (and the more RP-oriented, the better!).  But how long it takes to get orders filled?  I think everyone in the game would be happier if we all agreed to make that complaint 'out of play' IC.  Because 95% of it is an OOC problem.  Some of it is the game, some the communication with staff, some the player, but very little of it the actual character.  And it seems like whenever that complaint is levied, it's really the other player complaining, and not the other character.  Because the character doesn't have Amazon Prime to compare the service against.

[BadSkeelz]

I kind of want to app a merchant and intentionally never fill any order and spout excuses, just to see how long it takes someone to get murderous over it.

[Is Friday]

I kind of want to app a merchant and intentionally never fill any order and spout excuses, just to see how long it takes someone to get murderous over it.

No balls.

[WarriorPoet]

I kind of want to app a merchant and intentionally never fill any order and spout excuses, just to see how long it takes someone to get murderous over it.

Awesome. Occasionally fill an order to spice things up, but make it the wrong stuff.

Oh, you wanted an emerald inlaid saber? I brought you one of those goofy thongs. Don't like it? Take your ass to The bazaar instead, Bynner.

[James de Monet]

Haha, I'd kinda like to run a Merchant who demanded everyone have an in-person introductory reference from someone with a signet ring before I'd even talk to them.  Some people would like it.  Some people would cry rage tears.

[WithSprinkles]

Haha, I'd kinda like to run a Merchant who demanded everyone have an in-person introductory reference from someone with a signet ring before I'd even talk to them.  Some people would like it.  Some people would cry rage tears.

Heh, that likely only works for late career merchants, maybe. If people were bugging other GMH folk for references, the other merchants MIGHT thank you, but the nobles and templars might very well grab you up and shake you like a rag doll for increasing their Way traffic. Especially if you were an unknown. But that's a real good way to meet them all fast!

[Grapes]

Ok, so, I wanted to apologize, something seems to have crawled up my butt and died, the tone of my post was slightly condescending. I do, however, believe them valid points, I will edit out the snarkier, assumption-laced parts momentarily. I believe, a solution, if one need be had, would be a modification of duties and responsibilities shifted a rank down the chain, not simply chasing perfectly good character concepts out of the House until someone's playtimes just happen to match yours (which could end up being Badskeelz's or WarriorPoet's Merchant concept). Applying an extra and arbitrary glass ceiling to players who are in different timezones or other countries simply because of logistical difficulties with a number of players is heavily unfair, in my view, and, an OOC construct at best. It's sort of discrimination, yes?

If the virtual house Merchants that are around during your time of the day don't have time to deal with you, call out all the invisible Kadian merchants that are ignoring you to their superiors.

[Hauwke]

Simple solution.

Get two merchants. One on-peak. One off-peak.

If you cant catch at least one of them then thats your problem at that point, get a friend to get your order for you.

[Lizzie]

Simple solution.

Get two merchants. One on-peak. One off-peak.

If you cant catch at least one of them then thats your problem at that point, get a friend to get your order for you.

Oh I remember those days. Much fun.
Lord Templar Month-Away-From-Being-A-Red-Robe wants a particular diamond necklace. Needs to be ordered, not a stock item, and at the time, not craftable. So you order it. You know it'll probably be around 4 days before it shows up, because your staffer is amazing and loads shit up like a fucking boss.

So on the 5th day, you go to the warehouse to check the NPC merchant to see if it's loaded up yet. You don't see it. But you also know that it's not good manners to make a stink when it's only been 5 RL days since you requested something. So you wait another week. Still - nothing.

Then, Almost-Red finds your mind, asking wtf is your problem and why doesn't he have his necklace. You tell him it hasn't shown up yet from the Master Crafters, they're probably just backed up with special orders for the upcoming festival. He now wants to know why Junior Newble Noble Amos is now in possession of the EXACT SAME NECKLACE that he ordered two weeks ago, when Amos only showed up for public service a week ago?

That's when you find out that Malik, the night-Kadian, who you never met since you don't play off-peak, sold the necklace YOU special ordered, to the 1-week-new noble and didn't think to mention it to anyone, since it was just sitting there on the NPC's 400-item list of stuff.

That kind of thing happened a few times. You don't know that it WAS loaded up, and sold by someone else, until the person you ordered it FOR - wants to know why someone else is in possession of it. Meanwhile you're secretly cussing out the staff for being so damned slow, because it's really very rude (I mean that sincerely) to pester the staff every few days for a load-up, and there doesn't seem to be any consistency in "when to drop a line if you don't get the item by [date]" staff-side.

That said -

It'd be really awesome if the staff came up with a more consistent, specific timeline on when it's considered "acceptable" to ask "Is there an ETA on Lord Templar Hardnose's fidget spinner?"

Some kind of hard rule on it. Two weeks? 10 RL days? A week? A month? I'm not asking for a hard rule on how long to expect a thing to get loaded. I'm asking how long to wait before it's acceptable to send a reminder request.