Reflexive Magik

[Rindan]

The half joking thread on exploding elementalist gave me an interesting idea.  I personally think that people are too confident in their abilities to kill elementalists.  They know that if they can start swinging before an elementalist starts casting they have a fair chance at victory because elementalists have such poor defense.  A way to combat this would be to give elementalists reflexive defenses.

If I go to hit someone in the face, if they see me coming they will close their eyes, turn their head, and throw up their hands up to defend against the blow without thinking.  A way to combat elementalists being easy pickings when on the defense would be to give them a similar reflex.

I always viewed elementalists as being naturally in tune with their element.  When they cast, they are focusing thier energies to actually control the element.  However, even if they didn't cast they would still exercise an amounts of control over their element.  An angry Krathi will cause torches to flare on reflex.  A sulking drovian will cause the area around him to darken.  They can control it in public of course, but if they were to let go of their control, then these minor acts of magik would happen naturally.

Imagine if all elementalists had a reflexive defense.  In the same way a pissed Krathi might on reflex cause all of the torches in the room to suddenly flare, a scared Krathi would perform some sort of defensive measure like flinching with magik.  The stronger the elementalists, the stronger the reflex.

So, lets say a whirian and a mercenary are in a verbal fight.  Suddenly, the Byn mercenary draw his obsidian blade and swings to skew the whirian.  Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  The Byner swings and his sword finds nothing to hit except air.  If the whirian is weak, he or she might only stay that way long enough to dodge the first round of swings the become solid again.  If the whirian is skilled the she might be able to stay that way for say 10 seconds, more then enough time to sling a spell.

Elementalists would have only one control over this ability.  They would be able to suppress it so that they don't do it.  So, you might type 'reflex off' if you don't want to automatically respond to assaults.  This would be useful if you are going into battle and wouldn't be surprised at being attacked.  Once the reflex is used they wouldn't be able to do it again for another day or so.  The reflex would not be something that could be trained.  It would simply become more effective as you become more powerful.

So, a complete newbie krathi might cause a sudden flash to blind the attacker for a single round of combat.  A skilled krathi might perform a much more powerful flash that blinds everyone in the room for 10 seconds.  Finally, an old master krathi might blind everyone in the room for 30 seconds and have a wave of fire explode from his body, burning everyone in the room.

Magikers would still be very killable, especially weaker magikers who would only be able to defend themselves for a single round of combat.  First, one could simply use magical means to kill a magiker.  Second, a true surprise attack would still be effective.  You could still backstab a magiker.  They might reflex after the fact, but not before the first stab.  Third, you could simply have enough people around before trying to take one down where it doesn't matter.  So, if you are going to assault an ancient and powerful krathi you might send some cannon fodder in first to be the victim of his reflex and have 10 other guys just outside the door waiting for the krathi to blow his load before charging in.

This would make magikers much more feared and make killing one much more of an accomplishment.  It would make cutting down a magiker a very dramatic event because they would never go quietly.  Even a weak magiker would do something before being cut down.  It would encourage forethought and planning before cutting one down and give magikers enough of an edge to survive an encounter with an old warrior even if they are not fully prepared.

As a pleasant side effect it could also lead to interesting ways for people to 'discover' they are magikers.  A merchant who is an elementalist might never learn of his powers until a raider spear passes through his body.  Even better, a crowd of fanatical Northerners might torture someone trying to cause them to reflexively defend themselves and thus prove they are a vile magiker.

[Marauder Moe]

I really like this idea.  It makes sense too since combat PCs get a chance to dodge and will automatically strike back, why wouldn't magickers be able to do the same?

[Ueda]

Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  

I'm trying to imagine and I just don't see it.

I personally think it might put them into shock, since I doubt they are use to weapons flying at their face.

To sum it up I totally disagree.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Who posted this thread? Rindan? I hate Rindan. I despise the air he breaths. But I agree with this. I like this idea, if you include the possibility of no reflex at all happening, and the reflex thing being based on agility and skill in the magick.

But I still hate Rindan.

The above comments about Rindan and his mother are jokes. I do not hate Rindan, since I have never met him, and thusly the above comments are solely for entertainment purposes.

[Rindan]

Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  

I'm trying to imagine and I just don't see it.

I personally think it might put them into shock, since I doubt they are use to weapons flying at their face.

To sum it up I totally disagree.

Sure, they might simply just stand their stupidly as someone goes to skew them.  They might flash into air for a few seconds then flash back without ever moving.  The point isn't that it would be something controlled.  They wouldn't think "Oh shit, a sword is about to impale me!  Quick, I better turn into air!"  If I were to try and punch you in the face you wouldn't think "Oh shit, I better put my arms up in front of my face, close my eyes, and turn my head to deflect the blow."  Even a total coward will generally cover themselves on pure reflex if they are about to be harmed.  It isn't something you think about, it is just something you do.  I am suggesting that someone in tune with the elements would have a similar reflex.  It isn't planned.  It isn't thought about.  It is like blinking before something hits your eye.  

How you react to such an attack of course is up you and how your character is played.  A powerful Krathi might reflexively defend himself from the initial attack then proceed to burn his attackers alive in rage.  A Whirian might perform her defense and have their next move be vanishing or running away.  A Vivaduan might be so shocked at being assaulted that he just stands there.  His defense stops the first few attacks, but instead of doing something useful like running or defending, he just sits there and is eventually skewered.

The idea is to at least give elementalists a fighting chance and make attacking one far riskier, or in the very least cause people to put a little planning and forethought before trying to kill someone with such awesome powers.  If nothing else, it would make the killing of an elementalist far more spectacular.

[Ueda]

spectacular is a opinion. I think the code already gives a -magiker- a fighting chance against someone attacking him,

But I guess I can see some -very- powerful elementalists that could do things like you said.

[Carnage]

I like this idea.

[Dakkon Black]

I like it alot. Right now I see a magicker and it doesnt scare me. I know that he/she will go down with one bash and get killed. Icly I should be filling my pants that at anytime I will just explode because I touched a magicker.

[Armaddict]

Erm...no.

Magickers are plenty dangerous enough.  Weaker ones aren't.  One lives long enough to get powerful, they're scary mother fuckers.

The whole beauty of killing a magicker comes that in you've either got to be real good and quick, catch them by surprise, or get lucky enough that they don't get off a spell.  Whether that spell be fireball, teleport, sleep or whatever.  They've always got something to resort to, and -that- is their reflex.

What you're asking for, basically, is for magickers to be -innately- hard to kill?  So a few 'uber' classes that are powerhouses, most especially against a man who swings a sword.  Ha!  And all this without pushing a button!  So that they can throw their powerful spells at will!  Wow!  What's the 1-800 number on this one?

Blech.

[Malifaxis]

Ueda:

spectacular is a opinion. I think the code already gives a -magiker- a fighting chance against someone attacking him,

You've obviously never played a magicker.

Armaddict said:

(armaddict's entire post)

No, he's not saying make them innately hard to kill.  He's saying 'give them a fighting chance.'

Here's an example.  In this example I will use multiple... example-ettes.
Example-ette one:  
Northern newbie warrior (under 2 days play time) gets his starting gear, gets some new shell duds at the Salarr shop and picks up a sharp stick.  Northern newbie warrior goes out and finds Vestric X.  Northern newbie warrior proceeds, over the course of the next... five or six minutes (three of that being 'the chase')... to kill the vestric, taking minimal damage.

Example-ette two:
Southern newbie warrior (under 2 days play time) gets his starting gear,
gets some new scrab duds at the Salarr shop and picks up a sharp stick.
Southern newbie warrior goes out and finds Jozhal X.  Southern newbie warrior proceeds, over the course of the next... six to ten minutes (three of that being 'the chase')... to kill the jozhal, taking decent damage (ouch, those claws.)

Example-ette three:
S/N-ern newbie warrior (under 2 days play time) gets his starting gear,
gets some new armor duds at the Salarr shop and picks up a sharp stick.
S/N-ern newbie warrior goes out and runs in to Magicker X outside of the gates.  S/N-ern newbie warrior proceeds to POUND THE LIVING FUCK out of a 5-10 day magicker **WITHOUT BREAKING A SWEAT**.

That, my friend, is ridiculous.  A rat bird and a knee high lizard are more of a threat than a semi-trained magicker.

Rindan, I'm in full support of your idea (if you hadn't guessed) but I would suggest that a mana cost be added... anywhere from a 10-40 pt mana cost for a 'reflexive defense use'.  I would also suggest that perhaps a timer be put on it.  If bynner X jumps Whiran Y, and Whiran Y turns to air for 10 seconds and runs, if bynner X follows and re-assaults, Whiran Y should not turn to air again... because it's expected that he's still in danger.

Also, I am not in agreement with the idea that the reflexive defense would be an automatic thing... there should be a chance that the reflexive defense would not work.  You step out in to the road in the middle of the night, turn to the left, and you see headlights... sometimes you jump to the side, sometimes you stand there and pull a stupid face.

As it stands, if a magicker is anywhere under day, say 10 or 15... they are meat if they run into a warrior with a sharp stick at his fifth hour.  It's insane, it's not cool, and it should be remedied I think.  I'm all for having magickers still struggle to survive, but as it is... it's like stomping on mushrooms.  No challenge to kill one.  It's just... if you're a magicker... and there's a threat... if you aren't really fast at typing run and then spam directions, you're meat.  You're a splat mark, and it's just over.  A warrior or any other class (sans merchant, I believe) has a fighting chance of surviving long enough to run like hell.

The reason that people, in Zalanthas, are not afraid of magickers at the moment is because THERE IS NO REASON TO FEAR THEM IF YOU CAN JUST RIP THEM IN HALF.  Make magickers a survivable class, and people will once again begin to fear them!

I'm probably not coherent at all in my statements, I'm so caffeinated right now my skin is twitching.  I hope I've made at least some sense.

Magicker<10d + Anything = Dead Magicker
Magicker>10d + Anything = Probably Dead Magicker

Is there any way we could re-think this equation?

[Malifaxis]

One more thing

In specific on Armaddict's post:

The whole beauty of killing a magicker comes that in you've either got to be real good and quick, catch them by surprise, or get lucky enough that they don't get off a spell. Whether that spell be fireball, teleport, sleep or whatever. They've always got something to resort to, and -that- is their reflex.

You don't have to be good and quick at all.  I know this from personal experience.

And unless the person playing a melee class is over three quarter's dead in the brain, typing 'bash magicker' is always going to beat out having to type
cast 'blah un element (bing) ohshitIjustdied'
Welcome to Armageddon.

[Armaddict]

Bash -really- doesn't work that often.  Once you're good enough at bash that you'll risk trying it against someone who can and will kill you while you're on the ground by tossing magicks into your prone form, you're good enough that you can kill a magicker.  Bam, welcome to armageddon, you tried to magick the -wrong- warrior.

[Carnage]

And unless the person playing a melee class is over three quarter's dead in the brain, typing 'bash magicker' is always going to beat out having to type
cast 'blah un element (bing) ohshitIjustdied'
Welcome to Armageddon.

Uh, that magicker is just as dumb for not having an alias set up where he could quickly access it. I had aliases set up for all the spells I'd need in emergencies and to quickly get off. The others were more utility spells or something that didn't need to be cast in a hurry.

[Armaddict]

I agree.

You want reflexes?  Use an alias!  Heh.

[Angela Christine]

What if instead of being "free" and totally automatic it was something like the contact skill.  While you have "reflex on" there is a slow but steady mana drain.  Perhaps, like some psi abilities, it would  lower your maximum mana pool by 10 or 20 points while it was active, to represent the energy you are spending to maintain it.  That way when you are alert to potential danger you are ready to take a reflexive action, but if you relaxed and taking a nap in the temple or drunk out of your gourd with your buddies you won't necessarily be ready to suddenly defend yourself.  

You still don't have any control over what your reflexive action is, because it is an unconcious use of your inate abilites.  It could be something that protects you, something that hurts your attacker, or something that is showy but doesn't affect the combat.  Showy things could be like a vivaduan might piss out a big puddle of water, a krathi might throw out something that initially looks like a fireball but instead of doing dammage it covers the attacker in faerie fire so the poor bastard glows for the rest of the day, or a fireball that doesn't actually hit anyone or explode but instead just hovers in the air for an hour and then disappears.

Even when it is an attack, it probably wouldn't be terribly dangerous, just shocking.  I'd say no more than a 20 point attack, not enough to really hurt a healthy target, but enough to make them think.  On the other hand, I wouldn't make it dependant on the "power" of the elementalist, because it is a reflexive use of the inborn link to the element.  This would give new-ish elementalists a boost, without making scary older elementalists much more scary.  Sorcerers probably wouldn't be able to use the reflex, because they don't have an innate connection to anything.

AC

[Summer]

If you can turn it on and off it doesn't seem very reflexive to me....

[witchman]

I think we need to refocus.  The idea of the reflexive magick was to:
a. bring the fear back to the mages
b. reflect their connection to their element

Most of the things we've talked about don't do this or are becoming watered down in the discussion.  I recommend the following:

A mage who is killed (not attacked, killed) will release mana in a way that damages or causes some strange effect to creatures/objects relative to their level of ability as a mage.  This could range from disgust/discomfort all the way up to death for a large number of people.

There would be no turning it off, delay or anything else.  I suppose damage could be relative to a mage's current pool of mana - so you would want a mage to be completely "empty" before you killed him.

Then players wouldn't be so ready to swing a sword at a mage and might, rather, distance themselves from them for fear of getting spewed upon.

It would also make mage hunting a more pricey endeavor for those skilled in it.

[Summer]

I'd say not...

mercy on
kill mage
*you stay the killing blow*
south
draw bow
pull quiver
shoot mage north

[Forest Junkie]

witchman's idea seems more feasible.

Magickers already have an edge on mundane fighting classes in that they can channel their energy into spells, which means certain death on the warrior's part. As of now, if a magicker and a warrior went at it, the one who would win would most likely be the one whom got in the first spell/hit. Believe me, it's not hard to alias mon calm to your vivaduan. Giving these magickers an EXTRA advantage IMO would unbalance the system.

[UnderSeven]

I have to agree with armaddict.
It's true magickers for most of their life will be owned by just about anything that comes there way.. But that's a trade off because if a magicker lives to badasss-dom they own EVERYTHING.  I've seen what magickers can become and by this I mean any magicker class.  I've seen a single magicker walk into a group of blackmoon and drop them all without them even being able to touch him and they knew he was comming!  Giving them a reflex is a bad idea because magickers are supposed to be wusses for most their lives.  If a maxxed magicker who understood being a magicker went at it with a maxxed ANY OTHER CLASS the magicker would probably and most likely obliterate them.  You'll have to trust the staff on this one, magickers are plenty fair just the way they are.  Lower begingings MUCH higher potiental.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Unless your maxxed magicker went at it with a maxxed dwarf with the stats to be very resistant to magick. Then your magicker is fucked.

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with armaddict.
It's true magickers for most of their life will be owned by just about anything that comes there way.. But that's a trade off because if a magicker lives to badasss-dom they own EVERYTHING.  I've seen what magickers can become and by this I mean any magicker class.  I've seen a single magicker walk into a group of blackmoon and drop them all without them even being able to touch him and they knew he was comming!  Giving them a reflex is a bad idea because magickers are supposed to be wusses for most their lives.  If a maxxed magicker who understood being a magicker went at it with a maxxed ANY OTHER CLASS the magicker would probably and most likely obliterate them.  You'll have to trust the staff on this one, magickers are plenty fair just the way they are.  Lower begingings MUCH higher potiental.

I'm pretty sure I was part of that event a year or two back.  Killer stuff.  No pun intended.

That being said I think its the wrong take to try and make magickers cause more damage or explode in grand fashion when being killed.  The idea, to me, isn't to make them more scary.

Just to give them a chance to do something before Senor Uber hits them upside the head and knocks them the fuck out in 2 rounds.

I'll never understand the 'unable to cast while holding something' bit and that is what I think gives magickers such a disadvantage.  Let them hold a shield and gesture with one hand.  Maybe their spells won't or can't be as powerful as they would if they were using both hands or maybe they take a second longer to fire off..  Let them wield a sword and cast with the other.  Its enough of a change to give them something closer to a fighting chance while not giving them some new innate ability to dodge or cast Blowshitupus on death.

[X-D]

Well, I played way back when a magicker (called clerics at the time and there was only 4 and no defilers) could cast while wielding/holding something, and I tell you this, that simple little thing makes them VERY powerful, too powerful.

Mine was a stone cleric, and at under 10days playing time he was simply unstoppable without staff intervention, and at that time it was still mostly H&S, so, the staff did not stop me from killing the armor merchant npc in tuluk and taking everything and slaying anything in my path to get out of town then traveling to nak and selling everything then doing the same thing there and traveling back to tuluk.

At around 20days play time on that char I logged in one day to find out that you could no longer wield or hold and still cast, but by then he had enough time on him that it really did not affect him much.

Today, in many ways magickers are even more powerful then they were in the beginning of this mud, one needs but live long enough and know what they are doing, the same for any class in the game.

And in case you have not guessed, I'm against the reflex spell/action thing, though a final death throw deal would not bother me much since I've always considered mana as stored energy and on death nothing is holding it in check, but the affect should be based on mana remaining and class, not the age of the char killed, cause I don't care how skilled that mage was in life, when dead he is not casting, so skill is not involved and is a simple release of energy.

Now, a death triggered spell that is branched at high level would be interesting, say, something cast on an item and would do nothing at all untill the caster died, then at least affect could be determined by skill.

[Xygax]

Not a staff opinion, mind you, but it is my feeling that magickers (in general) aren't intended to face off with warriors/rangers/etc. one-on-one, and if you find yourself doing that a lot, you're playing your magicker very dangerously (and perhaps incorrectly), and death is a well-earned reward.  

[Anonymous]

Not a staff opinion, mind you, but it is my feeling that magickers (in general) aren't intended to face off with warriors/rangers/etc. one-on-one, and if you find yourself doing that a lot, you're playing your magicker very dangerously (and perhaps incorrectly), and death is a well-earned reward.  

True, but I personally don't think that a dull black gem should be interpreted as a bullseye.