Broken Economics and NPC Vendors

[Riev]

The idea of Cool Kid Currency is to reduce the purchasing power, though I suppose that's just a coded solution to a player issue. If a Merchant wants to sell to someone, they will, so long as they have the coin.

One of the things necessary for a fiat currency is being able to convert it into the commodity.  The problem with metal is that the convertability wouldn't exist, or shouldn't.

The other problem is that the Noble Houses are funded via taxes.  If those taxes are on the regular currency, how is the noble currency created?  Since you actually have to increase the supply of the commodity available for conversion, in order to increase the money supply for a commodity currency.

Metal-backed currency makes sense, it was just a simple suggestion. I, personally, didn't realize the limiting factor would actually be a World-building issue as it relates to actual economics.

I agree about the taxes, though. If the Noble Houses are funded via the city taxes, why would THEY care about coin when they have Cool Kid Currency anyways?

I want to be snarky about coding and world-changing priorities, but I'll hold back.

[Armaddict]

Was on the same page on the first page.

Apparently that evolved into alternative currencies again, which is still as unnecessary and strange of an idea as it was the first time it was presented.

[Kryos]

The problem, Kryos, is that all your numbers are off. Even the cheapest scrap of mystery meat you can get is 14 sid. You need to eat like five of them to get full. Your average Byn Runner is making even less than that, usually zero (but is fed and watered) and usually kitted out in the way you describe. Your average hole in the wall is a good deal more expensive. Your mount costs like 3-4 times your figure to stable. Your numbers don't even leave enough to afford a mug of ale.

I don't think you actually read my post.

Also, a second currency type is just a slap dash measure to address a deeper issue.  It will end up creating another can of worms, in my opinion.

[Marc]

Would removal of banks help?

It wouldn't help alleviate the ease of making coins but would limit how much any individual could horde away.

[Riev]

Well, Armaddict makes a good point that there WAS an original topic. Per removal of banks, I don't think that would help the situation at all, it would just make burglars even more rich and popular.

On the original topic, I think its still just a matter of a rotating staff setting relatively arbitrary numbers for item values when submitting crafts. I know that when I submit custom crafts, the value is often low because the "value" of that carru horn is like 23 coins, so my knife can't be more valuable than, say, 40 coins. But I think NPC Merchants base their costs on a % of the static value of an item. So if someone set carru hide to be worth 200 coins, but a carru hide jacket is only worth 120... its just a simple discrepancy. Either the hide should make more than one jacket, or the jacket should be worth more.

Unfortunately, I also kind of agree that "carru hide" could be a jacket, gloves, part of armor, leather for a chair, etc etc. Because it can be anything, its value is worth more than the simple leather jacket you made out of it. This is just simple person to person sales, that jacket is not worthwhile to people who buy things, but the hide is more valuable to you because you need it for other things.

[Dar]

I'm mostly opposed to the idea of another 'cool kid currency' because I feel like it would have the same thing that regular currency has already.

"oh no templar whats his face is mad at me, I'll throw money at him"
Except he doesn't want your coin, or your 'I sucked a noble's dick' coin either, as he either has his own or whatever he can buy with it doesn't make him hate you less. Though I guess that isn't the fault of the system but a part of players being individuals, I just don't see the real point of another currency, even if it is backed by something else.

Being backed by metal actually makes kinda sense and would be cool as fuck, simply because 'I can buy metal or exchange it with this', but as previously stated by daddystaff-kun that it would be viable.

I kind of liked what Dark Sun did with their currency and prices on metal where everything was so god awful expensive you would need more coin than you could physically carry, as a half giant I think, to buy something made of metal.

But in Dark sun metal was actually more common than it is in Arm, so a metal backed currency doesn't seem right to me. I like the idea of slave backed currency but eh.

You could flat out just make a currency and call it 'Highlord loves me' money.

In actuality the cool kid's currency will alleviate this more. Templars dont get paid. They're an absolutely free labour . They exist 'entirely' on Noble/Commoner bribes/investments. So if a Templar decides to mess with you on a whim. Not because he really seriously hates you for some reason, but simply on a whim and your bribe does not affect him in any way, then odds are good is that he is 'full of coin'. And the reason why he is full of coin is because, prior to you, he was given some extremely insanely big large hefty bribes. Possibility of getting hefty bribes from Hunter extraordinaire and salt grebbers is pretty high right now.

With the new currency, things change. If the bribe with old money is not working out, because the Templar's got that stuff pouring out of his nostrils, try the new currency. That suddenly changes things. Because new currency is basically liquid noble favor. The fact that you have some, means somehow, someone. somewhere had to do something to a Noble house that earned it.  Bribes in that currency are rarer and it's less likely for the Templar to be full on that type of currency. He also needs it for fine clothing, fine dining, and payment to outside sources.

The difficult part would indeed be deciding on what items get sold for which currency. I assume all silk and most wooden items in Allanak. Probably anything that costs more then 350 sid right now?



The part about that currency being backed up by something. I dont really understand the principle. What is the point of introducing this factor? With the virtual world in play, it kind of goes moot. For both the obsidian, 'and' any other other currency.

[evilcabbage]

virtually, it's likely backed by copper, iron, and things of that nature.

rare metals.

obsidian is backed by water.

it's just a way of saying "this has value because we have this".

[Veselka]

I'm really confused by this desire for a different currency. I can't figure out what problem this is attempting to solve, and it seems it would overly complicate an already odd arbitrary Economy.

If the worry is that people make too much money and buy too many fancy things, couldn't that be rounded off at the point of sale? Perhaps only grubby/fair things are available to sell to unaffiliated common people, hunters, and certain ranks within Houses and organizations. The nicer quality has to go to certain ranks and up. Limits on how many can be sold a month or whatever.

If money shouldn't be the end all be all, then perhaps that should be written into documentation. Or perhaps the Bank won't allow Commoners/non-Houses/entities to have over a certain balance, forcing the money back out into the world (or into places where it can be stolen). So if no one Commoner could have over 2000 coins in their personal account, it sort of limits what they're capable of saving for. They can band together with other Commoners to try and pool their money together, but that requires a degree of trust and possible betrayal.

I dunno. I'm just not really understanding the Noble Currency, and it sounds like bitcoin to me.

[Jherlen]

Sorry if I'm feeding the derail to banking and away from vendors for a moment, but:

What if there was a standard limit on PC bank accounts of 2000 coins, but House Nenyuk was brought back as a PC clan a la the Iron Bank in Game of Thrones. Nenyuki Agents could help commoners open higher-capped bank accounts, for a fee of course, along with negotiating lending arrangements and brokering deals. And of course, hiring thugs to bust kneecaps if terms aren't met. So you could still be a wealthy commoner and keep your money safe, but now you'll be on somebody's radar.

Imagine if your bank balance at Nenyuk could go negative, even. It might be easier to play PCs with expensive habits like whoring and drinking and smoking if you could actually drive yourself into debt doing them.

[Delirium]

lol, 2,000 limit? Say goodbye to player clans if that was the case. Besides, why would nenyuk want to limit bank accounts? They get a cut of everything you deposit. They don't want people to hoard their coins outside the bank, that's bad business!

[Riev]

Part of the suggestion, from my end, was to take the onus away from staff and players to police the idea, just to use it as they see fit.

Opening up a new clan to deal with the drudgery of coin and conversion sounds interesting, but its like voluntarily playing the wasteland raider. Everyone likes the idea, few apply for it, less survive to MAKE it interesting.

More on the original topic, though... is it a problem if the 200 coin carru hide only makes a 120 coin jacket? With high haggle, you could still make your coin back, potentially, and if you sell to a PC it could be even better.

The only way I see it being an issue is for subguild crafters that don't get a decent haggle. So they have to buy things at market cost and may not make a lot... but in that case, you can use your primary guild to assist your material acquisition.

[evilcabbage]

delirium, could you do me a big favor and read this bit:

Sorry if I'm feeding the derail to banking and away from vendors for a moment, but:

What if there was a standard limit on PC bank accounts of 2000 coins, but House Nenyuk was brought back as a PC clan a la the Iron Bank in Game of Thrones. Nenyuki Agents could help commoners open higher-capped bank accounts, for a fee of course, along with negotiating lending arrangements and brokering deals. And of course, hiring thugs to bust kneecaps if terms aren't met. So you could still be a wealthy commoner and keep your money safe, but now you'll be on somebody's radar.

Imagine if your bank balance at Nenyuk could go negative, even. It might be easier to play PCs with expensive habits like whoring and drinking and smoking if you could actually drive yourself into debt doing them.

the implication being that, you open a bigger, more higher-capped account with nenyuk via a pc player which would give people a reason to play nenyuki pcs and to open the clan, expanding the game world a little bit more.

[Armaddict]

I think nessalin's post on dynamic systems in the future sounds very promising.  I'm not sure if that's actually in the works though.

Mostly, I'd like to see an announcement that if something seems undervalued in comparison to what's required to make it, we should bring it to attention for editing, either on the materials themselves or the item made.

The economy is a bigger beast than crimcode or anything else.  We haven't even figured this shit out in real life yet.

[Delirium]

Sorry, but that still sounds like a lot of effort for ... what kind of gain? Does it make the game more fun? Or does it add an unnecessary layer of playtime juggling, special app recycling, "I spent 3 years building a relationship with this one Nenyuki but then they retired due to lack of playtimes and now all of that is completely moot if the next app-in decides they hate my guts" frustration?

Don't get me wrong. In an ideal world that would be a fantastic idea. In a world-building, seamless scenario where we could simply write the story, that sounds great. But in a game, with players, that sounds like it could get frustrating fast.

[evilcabbage]

automate it then.

[Delirium]

... and then what would be the difference? We can already set up relationships with NPC/VNPC Nenyuki through reports and staff animation and believe me, Nenyuk is aware of what is in your PC's bank account and you will receive corresponding attention. You could very likely set up loans and you already do pay fees, lots of fees, if you're someone who should be paying fees.

I no doubt sound very brusque here, but the point is that currently, your only real limit is your imagination. The more you codify this and make it something you MUST go through rather than something that you can add to your roleplay, the more it becomes a hassle that impedes gameplay rather than being something available that you can use to support your story when circumstance allows.

and if you're just a nobody grebber with 10,000 in your bank account not doing anything with it, honestly? it doesn't matter.

[evilcabbage]

i don't think nenyuk is in the business of handing money out to -anyone- without some kind of collateral in case payment isn't made.

that's something that would have to be taken up with staff, though. not my area.

i'm just saying, a system where -normal- commoners could only hoard so much money without paying a hefty fee to increase their upper limit seems pretty corrupt and nenyuki to me.

[Dar]

That already exists. Post2k, transactions incur 10% loss.

[evilcabbage]

no, that's a fee determined by the amount of money you deposit.

i'm talking about a fee to increase what you're -allowed- to deposit.

say your first limit is 2k.

you deposit to that.

nenyuk says "You want to store more money? There's an administrative fee required for that. Pay one thousand obsidian coins, or store your money somewhere else."

[Riev]

You're more than welcome to park your hard earned coin in the pockets of a Templar. Just don't expect a return.

Haggle is broken. That is relevant to the conversation at hand.

[Kryos]

I'll say it again:  treating symptoms does not a cure make.  Things like room weight limits, status related housing have fallen flat.  The new currency thing will fall flat.  We still have relative nobodies living in luxury sipping wine.  I love creative thinking and problem solving, but the tough ones, and this is a tough one, require one to roll up their sleeves and get to work fixing the root cause.  And on the concept of backed money:  it doesn't matter.  People accepted and used coins to create transactions over a barter system because it worked.  People took your coins, you didn't have to haul a pile of hides over to the miller to get the month's grain.  As demonstrated by modern U.S. currency, no one cares if its redeemable or not:  they just care that it works.

Some of that will be fixed, I think, just from the preview of the guild overhaul.  No more merchant means no more guild(class) who has an entire purpose of accumulating gigantic amounts of money and little else.  That leaves refactoring item breakage and consumption, price adjustments to items and services, scarcity of high end items, and payment tweaking for jobs.  Some are relatively too high, some relatively too low and such is easy to fix when you're sweeping up cost of living changes as well as economic sinks too.   

[Grapes]

Haggle isn't necessarily "broken", nor is merchants making huge piles of coin. You see, NPC vendors have a limited amount of coin which they slowly replenish. If one person is getting all the coin, it may be an indicator that too few people are providing competition by rolling merchant. It's not that PCs have coin that's the problem, it's that other PCs do not value it as they should. I can think of a couple dozen better reasons why the proposed guild revamp is a good idea. This is not one of them.

[Hauwke]

If your npc vendor wont buy another purple rock, try selling something less common than purple rocks. Try selling blue rocks instead.

Or an example I know that makes several different items from the same piece of thing, weapons. A particular, very easy to get piece of obsidian, can make I think four or five different weapons, try doing that and such instead.


On the other hand, the guys who make dozens of supposedly rare items and sell those for several thousand sid all at once bug me. Especially of they are selling to their own clan shop for instance. Eg, Kadius making jewelery and selling it to Kadius, Salarr making arms and armor and selling it to their shop.

[Dar]

If your npc vendor wont buy another purple rock, try selling something less common than purple rocks. Try selling blue rocks instead.

Or an example I know that makes several different items from the same piece of thing, weapons. A particular, very easy to get piece of obsidian, can make I think four or five different weapons, try doing that and such instead.


On the other hand, the guys who make dozens of supposedly rare items and sell those for several thousand sid all at once bug me. Especially of they are selling to their own clan shop for instance. Eg, Kadius making jewelery and selling it to Kadius, Salarr making arms and armor and selling it to their shop.

They usually do not do that for profit. As in they sell it at cost. Just to add to the inventory.

Or ... they're doing it against the rules and can actually be punished for it IG.

[Hauwke]

Thats fair enough I suppose, I hadnt thought of that. Though I still find it odd.