The Way

[Jihelu]

People bitched about Drovians knowing about plots I doubt they want everyone knowing.

[Chettaman]

I'm fine with mind worms being exclusively able to hear other's thoughts.

[FantasyWriter]

Cost and Risk to Drovian during/after spying: 5 Karma and ~0
Cost and Risk to Psionocist during/after spying: 8 karma and somewhere between 0 and the whole world hunting you to the death, depending on the dice rolls.

That's the difference.

[Jihelu]

Cost and risk to average person if random people started getting the ability to listen to the way:

Idk, whoever feels like lynching that day

[Molten Heart]

.

[FantasyWriter]

Just think of how bad it was back when you could >contact figure and they didn't even have to be in the same room as you.

[tapas]

Cost and Risk to Drovian during/after spying: 5 Karma and ~0
Cost and Risk to Psionocist during/after spying: 8 karma and somewhere between 0 and the whole world hunting you to the death, depending on the dice rolls.

That's the difference.

I'm fine with mind worms being exclusively able to hear other's thoughts.

Drovians can't catch way traffic. They also arn't around anymore.

Psions are not gauranteed to be able to catch way traffic either. There may or may not be restrictions. But there is most certainly dissencentive to act on that information at the risk of becoming exposed.

But why are we talking about the risk of these two karma classes without talking about the risk of using The Way as everyone's favorite information funnel?

Take it from a player of psionicists that there is virtually no risk to anyone that uses The Way as their secret messaging service. It's a perfectly encrypted, uncrackable code that real world intelligence experts could only dream about. It largely invalidates all other possible methods of espionage and counter espionage and it's such a fucking overused and abused mechanic to keep even the most trite communications secret.

Waying people, even if you're in the same room as them, is roleplay. If I Way someone, be it a person in the same room or across the city or across the Known, I'm roleplaying with them and we're creating roleplay. Just because you say it isn't roleplay doesn't mean it isn't.

Feel free to talk about how it isn't the kind of roleplay you like, but it's still roleplay.

Not to pick on Fathi. I know she's a great roleplayer.

But in light of the argument above, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. I frankly want to cave my eyesockets when I'm playing around players that Way at point blank range. I kid you not. If there was one thing that turned me off the game more than the crappy PK's I've endured. It's the inability of players to accept that there might be some risk to their super secret, private correspondances.

[WithSprinkles]

I don't think it's a matter of things being super secret. I think that sometimes it's a matter of nuance. You would say some things out loud. You would whisper other things. You might fire off a Way for yet another type of thing. There are so MANY things that I've had people shoot off to me in one off Ways that wouldn't have been quite right or possible to say in any other mode of communication. I've also just 'snuggled' in the thoughts of people my characters have cared about, sometimes not saying anything for long stretches of time except to insert random thoughts and comments. Why would folks wanna take that or make it difficult because it's not how they play? That's not fair.

Most of Zalanthan society has a small psionic ability. They would likely use such as a matter of course in their everyday lives and the STIGMA of being a psion is BECAUSE people value their private musings and the integrity of their own impulses in a world where people have such an intimate connection with each other. One way of thinking of it might be, Zalanthans are not human in the sense that we see ourselves as human. They are more genetically evolved and therefore, things that they take for granted as social norms of communication, we may not have thought of. It could be as simple as, "He's being rude by Waying at the dinner table."

Picture that two people are sitting at the Gaj and I join them. I personally would much prefer that they begin Waying one another privately and actively include me in their conversation, stilted as it may be, while they continue to talk between themselves, than they switch to another language. One is inclusive and the other is kinda rude. Yeah, people may say, "mah skill gainz", but yikes, man.

Also, if I know if I'm deep in with Waying someone and the bar is filling up or people are vying for my attention and I can't keep up, I get up and leave the crowded area so that I'm not rude to the people around me and open up the seat for someone to interact with the people actively talking. So I don't seem AFK.

Think of it in real life terms too. If people are using a language or method of communication that you are not privy to or do not understand, it's frustrating, especially when they do it in your presence. It does not entitle you (general you not directed at anyone) however, to demand that they stop what they are doing to include you. Cause.. that would be kinda weird to do in real life?

I've said it before and I am imploring people to learn from the mistakes of other games that I have mentioned elsewhere. Some of them have LITTLE TO NO PRIVACY. It is frustrating, it is not fun. Here, it is relaxing and nice to not have people that constant and pervasive snooping. Having the spying abilities locked behind the high karma tiers is fine and dandy by me because people can and do abuse them. I've also played games where a consumable item is needed for communication and while it is an option, it tends to get old and people who are determined to use it will just carry a lot of that item while people who can't afford it or find much of it, will suffer.

The idea of Wisdom being more heavily weighed in the usage of the Way is a good idea, though.

[tapas]

I don't think it's a matter of things being super secret. I think that sometimes it's a matter of nuance. You would say some things out loud. You would whisper other things. You might fire off a Way for yet another type of thing. There are so MANY things that I've had people shoot off to me in one off Ways that wouldn't have been quite right or possible to say in any other mode of communication. I've also just 'snuggled' in the thoughts of people my characters have cared about, sometimes not saying anything for long stretches of time except to insert random thoughts and comments. Why would folks wanna take that or make it difficult because it's not how they play? That's not fair.

This is a dumb reason not the change this mechanic. You can still have these interactions if they are open to scrutiny.

But honestly? This is a game about callaborative storytelling. Why arn't you allowing your actions to be viewed by other players? Why do you insist on keeping your character's affections secret if not to maintain some sort of advantage in a social setting? I know I try to communicate things about the way my character feels through body language, looks and speech mannerisms. Is there any reason you can't do that? I mean other than the fact that you want to keep it out of view of other players?

Most of Zalanthan society has a small psionic ability. They would likely use such as a matter of course in their everyday lives and the STIGMA of being a psion is BECAUSE people value their private musings and the integrity of their own impulses in a world where people have such an intimate connection with each other. One way of thinking of it might be, Zalanthans are not human in the sense that we see ourselves as human. They are more genetically evolved and therefore, things that they take for granted as social norms of communication, we may not have thought of. It could be as simple as, "He's being rude by Waying at the dinner table."

This is undocumented, speculative headcanon. But I've caught more shit for NOT using the way to relay sensitive information (or just trite interactions like the above). Do you know how much internal screaming I've done because my character's boss told me to use The Way instead of whispering in their ear?

Picture that two people are sitting at the Gaj and I join them. I personally would much prefer that they begin Waying one another privately and actively include me in their conversation, stilted as it may be, while they continue to talk between themselves, than they switch to another language. One is inclusive and the other is kinda rude. Yeah, people may say, "mah skill gainz", but yikes, man.

I think it's a discourtesy to all players to suddenly start way-speaking each other mid conversation. Maybe there are people spying on you? Maybe they're just eavesdropping for fun? Why can't you just convey the awkwardness of switching conversations at the new arrival? Again, I don't find the social convenience argument (and not the actual convenience of The Way) very convincing.

Also, if I know if I'm deep in with Waying someone and the bar is filling up or people are vying for my attention and I can't keep up, I get up and leave the crowded area so that I'm not rude to the people around me and open up the seat for someone to interact with the people actively talking. So I don't seem AFK.

I do that too.

Think of it in real life terms too. If people are using a language or method of communication that you are not privy to or do not understand, it's frustrating, especially when they do it in your presence. It does not entitle you (general you not directed at anyone) however, to demand that they stop what they are doing to include you. Cause.. that would be kinda weird to do in real life?

I would VASTLY prefer players used second languages before using The Way to communicate face-to-face. I could possibly still eavesdrop if I learned the language. I could interpret body-language.

I've said it before and I am imploring people to learn from the mistakes of other games that I have mentioned elsewhere. Some of them have LITTLE TO NO PRIVACY. It is frustrating, it is not fun. Here, it is relaxing and nice to not have people that constant and pervasive snooping. Having the spying abilities locked behind the high karma tiers is fine and dandy by me because people can and do abuse them. I've also played games where a consumable item is needed for communication and while it is an option, it tends to get old and people who are determined to use it will just carry a lot of that item while people who can't afford it or find much of it, will suffer.

I'm not buying it. Supposedly this is a game about intrigue. But that intrigue is largely killed by this one, annoying mechanic that players use to divert information away from other players. And your defence of the mechanic is "but it's super useful at keeping our interactions secret even if they're not secret".

[WithSprinkles]

Some people use social tells when using the Way. Others may not choose to do so. It's fine either way. If the current culture of the game is that people be more emotive when using the Way, then that is what people will generally tend to do unless they personally decide not to. Good examples of roleplay over time promote better roleplay. However we cannot force or shame people to play how we want. That's not right. Let people play how they want to.

Whether it is popular or not that conversations had over the Way are covert (and yet can still be eavesdropped on by those with certain abilities), they are still collaborative between the people having them and sharing those stories. If those stories include you, they include you. If not, they don't. Call my examples of how I have enjoyed using the Way 'dumb' or 'trite' if you like, but I do not feel that they have any less value.

Feelings of frustration at being excluded don't mean that we can force others to play how we want. If playing with or learning about those people who are interacting next to you means so much, then make an effort IC to weave and roleplay into their story. If that doesn't appeal to you or you can't be bothered and you just want to know what they're talking about or doing now, now NOW, then the question becomes what are your motives, really? It's collaborative play, right?

I applaud the reductive reasoning in your last statement, but it wasn't very constructive. I believe the Zalanthas you envision has more people behind more locked doors, out of the public venues (which is already sort of an issue) and a general sense of frustration. At the very least, if this were to get tweaked, then HIDE and SCAN would need to be adjusted first so that some intruders at least could be properly found and ousted.

I know for one thing that is certain, I am absolutely not playing in another game that devolves into having absolutely no sense of personal privacy.

[Synthesis]

It doesn't bother me in the least that people are engaging in super-secure messaging around me.

Like...this thought is already far too long to accurately convey how little I care about that.

Sounds like somebody maaaaaaaaybe just has a pet peeve.

[tapas]

Some people use social tells when using the Way. Others may not choose to do so. It's fine either way. If the current culture of the game is that people be more emotive when using the Way, then that is what people will generally tend to do unless they personally decide not to. Good examples of roleplay over time promote better roleplay. However we cannot force or shame people to play how we want. That's not right. Let people play how they want to.

I'd care about it a lot less if there was a functioning counter play.

Whether it is popular or not that conversations had over the Way are covert (and yet can still be eavesdropped on by those with certain abilities), they are still collaborative between the people having them and sharing those stories. If those stories include you, they include you. If not, they don't. Call my examples of how I have enjoyed using the Way 'dumb' or 'trite' if you like, but I do not feel that they have any less value.

Feelings of frustration at being excluded don't mean that we can force others to play how we want. If playing with or learning about those people who are interacting next to you means so much, then make an effort IC to weave and roleplay into their story. If that doesn't appeal to you or you can't be bothered and you just want to know what they're talking about or doing now, now NOW, then the question becomes what are your motives, really? It's collaborative play, right?

Let's be very clear about something. I don't feel like it's stupid because my character can't personally be involved. There are plenty of things my character wouldn't be involved in.

I think it's dumb because it detracts from the game. I think it narrows the bandwidth of possible interactions and possible stories if we just take the easy route to keep our characters safe. And I think it's even stupider that players will use it to curb minor awkwardness in social settings. Especially when those things are fun to express in character. AND THEN I blow a goddamn gasget when my character catches shit for expressing that same awkwardness IC. And that's without bringing up the way it warps political roleplay and the way it keeps big plots under wraps.  These are conclusions I've had even while playing psionicists.

I applaud the reductive reasoning in your last statement, but it wasn't very constructive. I believe the Zalanthas you envision has more people behind more locked doors, out of the public venues (which is already sort of an issue) and a general sense of frustration. At the very least, if this were to get tweaked, then HIDE and SCAN would need to be adjusted first so that some intruders at least could be properly found and ousted.

I know for one thing that is certain, I am absolutely not playing in another game that devolves into having absolutely no sense of personal privacy.

If you arn't safe enough in a clan compound, why should you be safe while using the way? Seriously. Why is anything at all risk free in this game? I'll never understand the compulsive notion players have that they need to reduce risk at all costs.

[tapas]

It doesn't bother me in the least that people are engaging in super-secure messaging around me.

Like...this thought is already far too long to accurately convey how little I care about that.

Sounds like somebody maaaaaaaaybe just has a pet peeve.

I frankly view it as a broken mechanic that needs fixing.

[tapas]

It doesn't bother me in the least that people are engaging in super-secure messaging around me.

Like...this thought is already far too long to accurately convey how little I care about that.

Sounds like somebody maaaaaaaaybe just has a pet peeve.

I frankly view it as a broken mechanic that needs fixing.

Well, you see...the thing about pet peeves is....

They are uncounterable and all alternatives are redundant?

[Synthesis]

I don't know why you think it's reasonable to expect to have some method of eavesdropping in the first place.

If anything, it's already far too easy for every PC in the game to know every other PC's business, just because of the smaller recent size of the playerbase, the unavoidable fact that OOC knowledge carries over from PC to PC, and the condensation of the playerbase mostly into one city.

[ghanima]

I don't know why you think it's reasonable to expect to have some method of eavesdropping in the first place.

If anything, it's already far too easy for every PC in the game to know every other PC's business, just because of the smaller recent size of the playerbase, the unavoidable fact that OOC knowledge carries over from PC to PC, and the condensation of the playerbase mostly into one city.

Synthesis is right.

First of all, I've never RPed under the notion that my use of the Way was infiltration-free. And even if it were 100% foolproof, well then good! A lot of players strike me as too wary to do things like play a spy or double crosser because they feel like they will be found out in an instant and die on the spot before anything interesting gets to happen.

Consequently you have things like players Waying even seemingly unimportant details instead of through a whisper because they're that worried it'll get out. I don't blame them. If you removed the Way entirely or made it riskier than it probably already is, people would not congregate more, or somehow engage in more interaction with each other. They'd just interact less and view the game as more of a solo outlet to hunt scrab and grind their archery skill with where, every once in a while, you might bump into another PC if you're lucky.

[FantasyWriter]

So what is it that's wanted?

We have the Way.
We already have a coded ways to eavesdrop on the way.

I've met MANY characters, especially leaders that roleplay relaying secret info over the way about as safe as walking into a spider-den blindfolded.
The existence of mindbenders is -not- an IC secret.  Many of their abilities (at least the one being discussed here) are suspected and speculated on by a large portion of the known's populations particularly those who lead groups that have survived and thrived in a world where psionocists are a thing.

Those who have a desire to stretch their ability beyond the basics, spend years of their lives devoted to the understanding the mysteries of the Unseen way.  In Darksun cannon, these were usually nobles who had servants to tend to their other needs.  Maybe some players are spoiled because of the way it is now, but you use to have to work hard at just being able to communicate with someone through the way, and it is/was very costly to do so.  The reason the starting values were raised was based on the idea that your character has spent 20+ years using they way, so they had probably learned to communicate about as good as they would ever be able to.

Have your character devote 15-20 years to trying to eavesdrop on Way conversations, and see where that leads you.  You might be surprised.  I once had a character that was, to a fault, a deeply caring and passionate person, so much so that it caused me a great deal personally to play him once I got deep into his psyche.  As time went on, he began to study the Way and try to understand how people felt and how he could make their lives better.  Staff was aware through reports, but I never asked for anything because he was a sponsored role, and I don't think that sort of thing is fair for characters who start with such a leg up, but had he reached his position from a normal merchant straight out of chargen, I would have done so.  The primary IC reason Elorin Kadius retired and left Tuluk (AKA stored) was that this study of psionics had cost him his secret tribal lover, and after that his Kadian father's legacy and Tuluki babymommadrama was no longer of value to him.

Learning magick or psionics is ICly doable by anyone, but these disciplines are very, very costly in time or effort to study.  If you want to play a character who hopes to ever achieve greatness in these subjects, you have to go through staff to get a leg-up. (aka guild/subguild choice).

Saying that anyone should be able to evesdrop on a Way conversation is tantamount to believing that everyone should be able to cast one spell through sorcery.  Either app a psionocist, or put in the time and effort to learn it in game.  There are good reasons that sorcerers and psionocists are hunted to the death by nearly everyone in the Known.  If you want the power that comes with that,  you need to be willing to accept the cost.

Saying that way conversations are super secret and private messaging systems is ignorance.

[tapas]

So what is it that's wanted?

We have the Way.
We already have a coded ways to eavesdrop on the way.

We actually don't... really.

I've met MANY characters, especially leaders that roleplay relaying secret info over the way about as safe as walking into a spider-den blindfolded.
The existence of mindbenders is -not- an IC secret.  Many of their abilities (at least the one being discussed here) are suspected and speculated on by a large portion of the known's populations particularly those who lead groups that have survived and thrived in a world where psionocists are a thing.

Those who have a desire to stretch their ability beyond the basics, spend years of their lives devoted to the understanding the mysteries of the Unseen way.  In Darksun cannon, these were usually nobles who had servants to tend to their other needs.  Maybe some players are spoiled because of the way it is now, but you use to have to work hard at just being able to communicate with someone through the way, and it is/was very costly to do so.  The reason the starting values were raised was based on the idea that your character has spent 20+ years using they way, so they had probably learned to communicate about as good as they would ever be able to.

Have your character devote 15-20 years to trying to eavesdrop on Way conversations, and see where that leads you.  You might be surprised.  I once had a character that was, to a fault, a deeply caring and passionate person, so much so that it caused me a great deal personally to play him once I got deep into his psyche.  As time went on, he began to study the Way and try to understand how people felt and how he could make their lives better.  Staff was aware through reports, but I never asked for anything because he was a sponsored role, and I don't think that sort of thing is fair for characters who start with such a leg up, but had he reached his position from a normal merchant straight out of chargen, I would have done so.  The primary IC reason Elorin Kadius retired and left Tuluk (AKA stored) was that this study of psionics had cost him his secret tribal lover, and after that his Kadian father's legacy and Tuluki babymommadrama was no longer of value to him.

Learning magick or psionics is ICly doable by anyone, but these disciplines are very, very costly in time or effort to study.  If you want to play a character who hopes to ever achieve greatness in these subjects, you have to go through staff to get a leg-up. (aka guild/subguild choice).

Saying that anyone should be able to evesdrop on a Way conversation is tantamount to believing that everyone should be able to cast one spell through sorcery.  Either app a psionocist, or put in the time and effort to learn it in game.  There are good reasons that sorcerers and psionocists are hunted to the death by nearly everyone in the Known.  If you want the power that comes with that,  you need to be willing to accept the cost

This is pointless nonsense. I'm not trying to turn mundanes into mindbenders and any diegetic arguement as to why or why I shouldn't is completely missing the point. I'm trying to fix a gamebreaking mechanic. And there is no real reason why it shouldn't be fixed.

Saying that way conversations are super secret and private messaging systems is ignorance.

Having played several psionic characters myself, it substantively is a super secret and private messaging service.

[Synthesis]

Even if psi messages are super secret and private, the mechanic isn't game-breaking, by any stretch of the imagination.

Again...it's just your pet peeve, dude.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Psi I agree with you Synthesis.  Don't say anything.

[tapas]

Yeah if you prefer to play with some amount of intrigue or suspicious, it's a pretty fucking broken mechanic.

Honest to fucking God. I feel like a tool when I'm expected to funnel all information to be put through the way. How do the rest of you justify it?

[Lizzie]

Yeah if you prefer to play with some amount of intrigue or suspicious, it's a pretty fucking broken mechanic.

Honest to fucking God. I feel like a tool when I'm expected to funnel all information to be put through the way. How do the rest of you justify it?

I don't assume I'm expected to funnel all information to be put through the way. And then, I don't have to justify anything at all. I just do whatever I think my character would do.  If she wants to communicate with that desert elf about something important and it's clear they don't speak the same verbal language, I'll communicate over the Way.

If she knows it's time to meet with her clan and she can't find them in the usual meeting spot, she'll way however many of them is necessary til she finds one and they can communicate where they're supposed to meet, or what's going on that prevented them from meeting at the usual spot.

If she knows her pal has gone to the other side of the game-world and there's something she decides she wants from that part of the world, she'll way her pal and ask them to pick it up.

I'm not seeing a problem with any of this. It's not "justified," it's the nature of the game, and one of its features.

[Hauwke]

If someone is forcing you to use the way, kindly tell them to stfu. Using a bone sword. If you cant sword a guy, you should probably be listening to what he has to tell you.
Edit to add: The Way is an IC thing. Use it in an IC manner.

[Kialae]

I'll Way whoever I goddamn please when I please however I please, especially as a leader sort. Any interaction is good interaction.

[Hauwke]

Precisely!