Do staff overuse their DM fiat?

[Pico de Gato]

Split & moderated the thread.  One topic per thread.

I get it that that things don't always turn out as we'd like - sometimes there's no purely 'good' solution on our side of things, either, and we have to go with least harm.  It's no excuse to derail other threads.

Considering the thread is about staff's actions, I maintain that it was on-topic. In fact, i would wager that if i were to post that again in its own thread, it would be moderated as well. Even if this thread is only about profanity IG, the first part of my post was regarding the word bitch. It doesn't seem to be off topic, merely inconvenient. Seems like more dishonesty, to me.

I don't really post about anything other than clan check ins and pets, but I really can't stay quiet on this one. Regardless of why staff are saying they moderated your post (I suspect they were being nice), you posted something that is not something you should be discussing on the GDB. While parts of it were OOC, I agree, whoever you killed now knows who you play. That's IC info directly related to your character. If you have a problem with how staff handled your interaction, you need to talk to them. No one the GDB can do anything about it except whine with you.

Ultimately, how I see it, is if you don't like how the game is handled - Why are you playing? Staff are not out to get you. Staff are not your enemy. Staff are real people with real lives and an awesome desire to bring YOU interaction and fun through this game. This sort of attitude breeds the toxic atmosphere that pervades this forum. And the fact is, all it does is hurt the game and other players. Staff aren't taking time out of their days to be dishonest just so they can fuck with you.

[Melkor]

Not playing anymore. Not IC. I dont think staff are dishonest to "fuck with" players; they have an agenda, and are willing to lie to players to achieve said agenda.
The entire profanity debacle is but one example of this behavior.
If you had seen my post before it was moderated, you would know that i had discussed the incident at length with staff. The GDB is the perfect venue to bring up the OOC decision because such decisions effect all players. Having a pertinent discussion does not equate to "whining."

[Riev]

Ultimately, how I see it, is if you don't like how the game is handled - Why are you playing? Staff are not out to get you. Staff are not your enemy. Staff are real people with real lives and an awesome desire to bring YOU interaction and fun through this game. This sort of attitude breeds the toxic atmosphere that pervades this forum. And the fact is, all it does is hurt the game and other players. Staff aren't taking time out of their days to be dishonest just so they can fuck with you.

For the record, I don't like how the US Government is handled. But I live here. I think its a great country, has great potential, but I happen to currently not agree with how some things are handled.

In Arm, sometimes I disagree with how situations are handled. I can't speak for everyone, but it feels that sometimes staff are just like middle management. They were good at being players, they were trustworthy, but some just aren't cut out to be managers and "storytellers". Sometimes I disagree with the direction the Admins+ take the game, and have felt like they were "out to get me" simply because I was friends with someone they considered troublesome. But I still play, because its a great game, and you won't find better roleplay, with this many people all GENERALLY following the rules of roleplaying, anywhere else.

Don't give the "If you don't like it, don't play". We're allowed to disagree, and we SHOULD be allowed to disagree vehemently so long as we follow some basic rules. So far as the OP is concerned, the staff can tell us what the rules are, whenever they want. Its their game. But without the players, they're just dicking around, and I HONESTLY sometimes wonder how many of them play the game, and how many just perform routine maintenance and pay less attention than they used to.

[Armaddict]

if you don't like how the game is handled - Why are you playing?

We can enjoy the game and not agree with the direction of it at the same time.  We can be invested in trying to improve the game with our feedback in ways we think the game should be improved based off experiences in it.

It's a great game.  That doesn't mean it's perfect or perfectly handled.  Honestly, the fact you voiced this is a great way to lose players, because even those who played for a long time already -have- voted with their feet.  Visibly, loudly.  So I'd impart on you the wisdom that you may not want to use this rationale unless you really like playing with less people, in which case...I'm guessing you'd be pretty loud about it, if it was now or in the future necessary to your continued enjoyment.

[Miradus]

The scale ...

1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10

1-3 I say screw it and quit playing.

10 I'm enjoying myself immensely.

I'm at about a 6 most of the time, which gives me the right to bitch about the things that keep me from being 7-10 and also to bitch about the proposed implementation of things that will take me closer to 3.

I can point you to about 50 GREAT muds where there's an active, engaged staff of 3-5 people sitting around wishing they had some players. Why? Because at some point one or more of those 3-5 staff pissed off the majority of the playerbase with statements (and actions) that more or less said "If you don't like it, don't play here."

Melkor is a good roleplayer and a decent fellow. I can go to browse that Shadowboard thing and see about 20 people who any mud is probably better off with, but if you've lost Melkor? That ought to make you wonder what shit is going down that you're not aware of, not immediately knee-jerk jump to the defense of staff/game.

It would be like Nauta suddenly posting that they're sick of this game's shit. You KNOW you would wonder then what the heck is happening that you're oblivious to.

[Pico de Gato]

The point I was trying to make, and maybe I did it poorly, was that it feels like no matter what happens everyone jumps to STAFF IS WRONG THOSE ASSHOLES.

The conversation that got moderated wasn't a discussion. It was OMG HOW COULD THEY THOSE BASTARDS. Everyone is always a victim. Staff is always wrong. And that's seriously not how I see it. I've been playing 10+ years and never experienced that. I've disagreed with a decision from time to time, sure, but I talked it through with staff.

It's that mindset that the player is always right and staff is always wrong that really tarnishes this forum.

[sleepyhead]

The point I was trying to make, and maybe I did it poorly, was that it feels like no matter what happens everyone jumps to STAFF IS WRONG THOSE ASSHOLES.

The conversation that got moderated wasn't a discussion. It was OMG HOW COULD THEY THOSE BASTARDS. Everyone is always a victim. Staff is always wrong. And that's seriously not how I see it. I've been playing 10+ years and never experienced that. I've disagreed with a decision from time to time, sure, but I talked it through with staff.

It's that mindset that the player is always right and staff is always wrong that really tarnishes this forum.

I don't think that's the mindset, though. There are people like who almost always stick up for staff, there are people who blame staff for everything that goes wrong, there are plenty of people in the middle who have nuanced opinions of staff, and then there are people who post on the GDB but never participate in any such discussions. I think it is a good mix and about what you'd expect when staff does some things wrong and some things right.

[SuchDragonWow]

When you have people saying "what's up my neckas" and "necka please" then I think the blame for this lies on those players.  I think it's possible that those players could've been personally addressed, but if it spreads beyond just a few players and infects areas of the game, I guess this is what it came down to.  Be mad at those people, though.

I'm glad the staff stopped there.  The other suggested words really felt like an agenda.  I'm glad it was not.

[Melkor]

If it "stopped there," at the word necker, then why was bitch - defined as a female gortok for over 10 years - removed from the help files?

It did not stop there, and it will not stop here.

It will not be long before it is questioned why every ruler of a large settlement is male.

"I find that fact to be problematic, offensive, and blatantly sexist. Tek has a vagina, get over it."

Or something equally ridiculous.

[mansa]

If it "stopped there," at the word necker, then why was bitch - defined as a female gortok for over 10 years - removed from the help files?

I think that's pretty easy to understand.  Someone had access, removed it.

Then a week or two goes by, and "official word happens", and nobody bothered to re-add it.  Maybe because nobody realized it was gone?

It happens a lot when you deal with information and you have multiple authors.

[Yam]

If you're gonna ragequit at least have the decency to stop posting.

[gotdamnmiracle]

If you're gonna ragequit at least have the decency to stop posting.

If you're going to post, please have the decency to keep it on topic.

This is an obvious attempt at goading someone into a flame war. Please cut it out.

[th3kaiser]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52703.0.html

Thanks Vox. Can we move on?

[Akariel]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52703.0.html

Thanks Vox. Can we move on?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Curses

[Melkor]

This is excellent. One small step in the right direction.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I don't jump straight to staff are wrong and players are right.  I just think restricting language in a game that a lot of people use as a medium for creating stories is appalling.  Its like saying we shouldn't tell history because its offensive.   I don't mind not using the word so much as the principle behind it. 

Sometimes the stories with uncomfortable concepts are the best stories because you get to see the motivations for blind hatred, racism or a psychological disorder. 

I'm not saying people don't have the right to be offended about it, but I am saying it gives you something to get offended about.  Its actually humanizing as opposed to removing vocabulary which is dehumanizing.  We play characters not our selves. 

I don't rob people IRL, or white night out to save people the same as I don't act like a racist IRL.   If I play a human that hates elves, my character should be able say what ever they want to that elf, its supposed to be offensive, that is the point.

We are being told to hold back and it takes away from the story.

[Harmless]

We keep going back to a topic that doesn't need any further discussion, the whole curse word thing.

Guys, let me help you be aware of a little public secret. The bad words don't get "banned" because of a desire to control RP content. They are banned to empower any players who feel personally offended or uncomfortable about the way certain words are used to file a player complaint about it and have staff justifcation for some form of action. That is how rules work; in some US states hate speech is a crime but police aren't actively moderating people's free speech, they are waiting for someone to report incidents where the use of hate speech made someone feel unsafe, targeted, etc.

So, in other words, unless staff observe something that makes them uncomfortable, or a player reports it, this rule is not likely to be enforced much. If players are mature and cordial with other players, then nasty, thematic RP of a dark fantasy nature will be free to happen IC. Consent rules should be followed. Maybe an 'ooc Consent to use adult language, please ooc to pause the scene if you get uncomfortable and I can scale it back' first before something really brutal like a hateful mugging of an elf is done. Then that player of said elf will be more likely to object and handle speech that crosses the line in the moment with the other player. If hateful language is used without consent it might blur the third wall for a newer player or for someone with serious and important personal experiences and they may not be able to address it via a quick ooc message. I am not keen on censorship either, but this is how I see these rules being useful to the playerbase, and it is just my two cents. The way it was announced was not in any way ideal, but that doesn't change the fact that the intent of the rule is really only meant to protect our players' enjoyment and some folks really need to move on and realize we all want to just get back to enjoying our virtual post-apocalyptic dark fantasy desert world.

[Yam]

Consent rules should be followed. Maybe an 'ooc Consent to use adult language, please ooc to pause the scene if you get uncomfortable and I can scale it back' first before something really brutal like a hateful mugging of an elf is done.

[Marauder Moe]

This is an adult MUD.  Logging in should be construed as consent to be exposed to adult language.

[whitt]

This is an adult MUD.  Logging in should be construed as consent to be exposed to adult language.

You do have to love American sensitivities.  Harsh language?  Nope... right out.  Hack someone with a bone sword for looking at you wrong?  Perfect!

We'll need to change our tag-line to "Sticks and Stones may break your bones, but harsh language requires consent."

[Refugee]

This is an adult MUD.  Logging in should be construed as consent to be exposed to adult language.

[Miradus]

Of the friends I've brought in or met here who have now mostly all left, none of them have left because they saw the word 'necker' misused, or the game was too hard, or adult language was used.

They are leaving because the community (read that as the GDB) is toxic and/or the imms were rude to them.

That's your bleeding hole in the game population. It's not code, or the reductionism of the campaign setting, or even anything related to roleplay. Those are almost always selling points.

It's the OOC elements driving them away.

I've gotten to the point to where I don't even WANT to go look at a rolecall or anything. Why? Because while I may get along (or tolerate) the characters I run into in-game, I lose all interest in playing in a clan when I log on and see a couple of known caustic people reporting in and realize that THAT is who I am going to be interacting with.

The actual player base is part of the problem, but a small part. If you don't like someone you can just avoid them. But the imms being either unfair or rude ... that's not going to go away. That's going to follow you clan from clan or character to character, and even if you get left alone you're still going to know that (should you become big enough to hit their radar), some nasty shit is going to go down.

I don't vote because I don't recommend this game anymore. I don't invite my friends to come play anymore because I don't want yet another situation where someone I invited runs into a caustic response to a request or an in-game event and decides to leave.

[Is Friday]

Damn, I probably trigger people when I post in role call threads. I guess I'll stop using alts, now.

[Dar]

All of ... uhh 'this' aside, are you guys familiar with the concept of 'self-perpetual negativity' ? Basically it's when there 'are' reasons to feel shitty/upset/bad/ill/spited about, but at some point the negativity the "real" causes brought takes a life of it's own and it begins growing and continuing itself, regardless of the original causes. This whole thread is kind of like what that concept is about. Yeah, there are things that make you 'and' me feel iffy about regarding this MUD. As a guy who recently left the game in 'protest' to some of the staff activity, I 'am' the one to talk. But ... not everything is so bad. There "is" real effort being made to be better. Is it excellent now? I dooooont think so. But once again, the effort "is" being made.

At some point, if you truly wish the better of the game, a person shooould sort of give the game a try. Set aside the sketchy parts, hope for the better, and ... play with a slate clean-ish. Will everything be perfect? Heh. Umh. No. But ... this whole thing cannot be fully be fixed and improved on by staff alone. Maybe all this talk of toxicity and all that should be taken to heart and maybe each player should give it at least a few months of a positive outlook. When next you're beset by 10+ spiders, 'don't' immediately consider a staff hating on you and loading them up. Maybe it's just part of the game. Sometimes dumb moves on staff side will be made and I believe they 'should' be discussed on GDB, or in private, or whatever. They should be discussed in my opinion. But truly, I think each player should find some line within themselves when each person is there arguing their point, or ... are they just exercising self-perpetual hatred.  Giiiive peeeeaaaace a chaaaaaaance? I 'am' drunk right now. But that hardly makes my point wrong. Eh? eh?

[Melkor]

Give me your keys, Dar.